Dawn of War Codex

Arbit wrote:They can already do that without the AC. The AC helps against melee squads but not much if the melee squad has T2 upgrades.

Yes. And what's wrong with this?

Being able to perform specials isn't something to disregard at all.
And as soon as those other squads get upgrades that turn them all in to power melee or all into some sort of plasma weapons then you might compare the units.

Arbit wrote:don't units get a bonus to melee skill when attacking a moving squad?

No, a unit loses 2MS on the move.

Engage in melee combat with EW AC CSM against any other T2 melee squad except if the other squad is severely damaged is a suicide. The only two T2 melee squads that EW AC CSM can counter/win in melee combat are Warrior Brood with/out Melee synapse and Raveners.

Guys, how many times have you seen a EW AC CSM forcing melee with ranged squads? I watched almost all the Indrid, Maestro Cretella and RedRupee casts and barely I can't remember seeing it even once.

Seriously, I'm the only one who sees the horrible design of the Unmarked CSM Aspiring Champion?

Lost Son of Nikhel wrote:Seriously, I'm the only one who sees the horrible design of the Unmarked CSM Aspiring Champion?

Yes you are, they are a RANGED unit that can beat up pretty much any other ranged unit in melee. The tac sarge doesn't make tacticals a freaking melee unit either although they have melee resistance and other things shared with melee squads.

You are applying the following "logic":

Lost Son of Nikhel wrote:Engage in melee combat with EW AC CSM against any other T2 melee squad except if the other squad is severely damaged is a suicide. The only two T2 melee squads that EW AC CSM can counter/win in melee combat are Warrior Brood with/out Melee synapse and Raveners.

Why on Earth should a basic ranged squad beat melee squads in melee? That's just mental.

Guys, how many times have you seen a EW AC CSM forcing melee with ranged squads?

Tac force melee is probably more relevant early game and gets more situational when the action escalates. But I don't find it surprising that a ranged unit is mostly used to shoot.

As much as I think vanilla AC could use a slight buff, you LSoN are not speaking it in a logic way. Your first post did make more sense.

I don't think he is trying to say he wants the CSM to beat melee squads. More like he wants them to be in melee more often than they are. Which I can understand. Which is why I said a weak charge would be best if you wand AC CSM to be in melee more often. Since sometimes they cant reach the unit they want to tie up. It is the same with Tacs. But Tac can bring so much to the table already so who really cares.

Back to CSM though, here is what the stats should be (in my opinion) for the charge to keep CSM into a primarily ranged unit. And to keep it balanced to the point of their role has not changed other than having them tie stuff up is bit more of an option later on in the game.

Range: 8 (a little shorter than Explosive Shot range, kite able)

Cooldown: 15 (Needs to be long so the CSM role stays a dedicated ranged unit)

Duration: 4 (Cant really do those retreat kills like a melee squad with this duration)

Maximum speed increase (addition): 2 (Small speed boost. Would make Kiting them still somewhat of an option if caught in melee)

These stats for the charge is not really an engagement changer. But again, forcing melee wouldbe more of an option for them in later in the game, if for some reason they have no mark. This would be a MASSIVE buff. Considering CSM is a ranged unit and (as i said before) they would be the ONLY ranged unit with a charge aside from heros.

I dont think i can stand by anything other than this if the CSM needed some type of change. No abilities added, no damage buff in any way, just a small weak charge. But i do think CSM is fine atm. Chaos is quite strong already if you look at what they have to offer.

Dark Riku wrote:Yes you are, they are a RANGED unit that can beat up pretty much any other ranged unit in melee. The tac sarge doesn't make tacticals a freaking melee unit either although they have melee resistance and other things shared with melee squads.

You are applying the following "logic":

There is difficult to reach melee with ranged squads in T2 with all that plasma damage. And more when they lack almost for any skill to engage melee (no charge, no superior speed, no abilities like jumps or sprints)

The Tac Sargent at least have 70 melee skill and gives the ATSKNF ability to counter melee squads. Not mention that with the Sternguard upgrade this ability is much more reliable.

And no, your comparison it's not accurate. A much more exact comparison will be have a tank with a giant chainsword under the main cannon which cost you resources and have almost no use.

Lulgrim wrote:Why on Earth should a basic ranged squad beat melee squads in melee? That's just mental.

Since EW AC CSM have the SAME dps than the Sargent ASM againt HI, for example. But I'm not suggesting that EW AC CSM should beat melee squads in melee combat. In fact, I said several times that it's mostly a suicide against most T2 melee squads.

Lulgrim wrote:

Lost Son of Nikhel wrote:Guys, how many times have you seen a EW AC CSM forcing melee with ranged squads?

Tac force melee is probably more relevant early game and gets more situational when the action escalates. But I don't find it surprising that a ranged unit is mostly used to shoot.

You have right. It's not surprising. The surprising is having a T2 Squad Leader which does like 33% less damage in ranged combat than a regular member of the same squad and have the same dps (or even more) than a melee dedicated model in a ranged squad.

It might make sense in a TT mod like, like the Codex Edition mod. But not here, in a balance mod.

Asmon wrote:As much as I think vanilla AC could use a slight buff, you LSoN are not speaking it in a logic way. Your first post did make more sense.

Sorry, but I'm not going to write a wall of text anytime I respond to a post. Lack of time and english abilities.

Which could be the buff you would put on vanilla AC?

wa1243agh wrote:Range: 8 (a little shorter than Explosive Shot range, kite able)

Cooldown: 15 (Needs to be long so the CSM role stays a dedicated ranged unit)

Duration: 4 (Cant really do those retreat kills like a melee squad with this duration)

Maximum speed increase (addition): 2 (Small speed boost. Would make Kiting them still somewhat of an option if caught in melee)

These stats for the charge is not really an engagement changer. But again, forcing melee wouldbe more of an option for them in later in the game, if for some reason they have no mark. This would be a MASSIVE buff. Considering CSM is a ranged unit and (as i said before) they would be the ONLY ranged unit with a charge aside from heros.

I dont think i can stand by anything other than this if the CSM needed some type of change. No abilities added, no damage buff in any way, just a small weak charge. But i do think CSM is fine atm. Chaos is quite strong already if you look at what they have to offer.

I still like more my combo

But we can try this, and then see if they still underperforms or are balanced.

When you say

Lost Son of Nikhel wrote:The only two T2 melee squads that EW AC CSM can counter/win in melee combat are Warrior Brood with/out Melee synapse and Raveners.

it implies that you think CSM should counter/win these units, and other (even T2) melee units as well, in close combat.

70 melee skill and bolter-grade ranged damage for the CSM AC is reasonable IMO. Charges and stuff... not convinced.

Lulgrim wrote:When you say

Lost Son of Nikhel wrote:The only two T2 melee squads that EW AC CSM can counter/win in melee combat are Warrior Brood with/out Melee synapse and Raveners.

it implies that you think CSM should counter/win these units, and other (even T2) melee units as well, in close combat.

70 melee skill and bolter-grade ranged damage for the CSM AC is reasonable IMO. Charges and stuff... not convinced.

Buy I've always said that it's a suicide for the AC EW CSM engage melee with other melee squads. I have never thought or said that.

On my quote I simply expose a fact. Thanks to their high damage, EW AC CSM can counter some melee squads. Maybe It wasn't the purpose of their design, but it simply happens. Nothing more and nothing less.

Your solution is the quickest and easiest, of course. That was the first I thought before the thread combo idea. Problem? They are going to be too much similar to tactical marines.

I'd just go with the 70 melee skill and maybe a buff to bolt pistol dmg. 70 melee skill ofc. applying only to MoK and vanilla AC.

But its ok that he does nothing in vanilla form though right? How are we justifying the AC being ok for that price when he does absolutely nothing in vanilla. Lets take a look at any other squad leader, even without squad traits. I think you will find that they all come with a perk or an ability... except for... oh yes thats right... the Raptor squad AC.

See a theme?

This might be so. But there is one very unique thing to Chaos. Their worship form heretics. This thing can be so powerful. So i am not sure the leaders need a huge perk. I remember some one complaining that my raptors got to jump 3 times, and said it as unfair. Since I was CL I had to remind him that CL worship also boosts energy regen.

Although I can understand the the Chaos leaders do seem like they are not worth it sometimes. Maybe try out this (this is from dow1 mind you). An ability that does 20% more dps for the squad, but take 20% more from all sources as well. That could help alot in end engagements. Plus would make it an ability you cant just spam.

Idk though. Like i said before I don't think Chaos needs a change. And they do have worship. And i think (i try) worship has to be used through out the whole game since it can bring so much to the table. My opinion though.

Khorne worship only boosts speed. Tzeench worship infiltrates. Nurgle worship boosts health regeneration by 3,5 hp/s per squad. Different worships do not give any additional buffs to non-daemon units.

Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Lost Son of Nikhel wrote:There is difficult to reach melee with ranged squads in T2 with all that plasma damage. And more when they lack almost for any skill to engage melee (no charge, no superior speed, no abilities like jumps or sprints)

For the last time. THEY ARE A RANGED UNIT.

Lost Son of Nikhel wrote:The Tac Sargent at least have 70 melee skill and gives the ATSKNF ability to counter melee squads. Not mention that with the Sternguard upgrade this ability is much more reliable.

As soon as tacs get 4 missiles or 4 plasmas then you may compare the 2 squads.

Tex wrote:But its ok that he does nothing in vanilla form though right? How are we justifying the AC being ok for that price when he does absolutely nothing in vanilla. Lets take a look at any other squad leader, even without squad traits. I think you will find that they all come with a perk or an ability... except for... oh yes thats right... the Raptor squad AC.

See a theme?

Power melee for the raptors isn't a trait? How does the AC do nothing? Getting a Tzeench bolter or an axe and meltapistol isn't a trait? Why don't we give him 70 melee skill and a lil higher ranged dmg but not give him Tzeench/Khorne upgrades.
Then he can be the same like the rest, just like you guys want it to be.


Let's forget his ranged dmg is only 2dps less than the other member in Elite as well.

Imo not having ATSKNF or some sort of similar ability/a passive buff is the trade off for gaining Tbolter or Chainsaxe and a Melta Pistol with the mark upgrades.

Yeah why do Raptor/CSM squad leaders not provide any passive bonus or ability to their units? It's 25 power for god's sake

Don't normally like comparing but look at what every other squad leader gives. Tac sarge, banshee exarch, commie for guardsmen, even DA exarch, etc...

Maybe I'm missing something here, but could someone please explain to me how a vanilla AC for Raptors and CSM justifies a 90/25 investment? Is it designed that you must buy Mot or MoK for them to be useful?

Raptor AC is fine. He does mega dps (40 power melee), compared to the 30dps of the asm sarge. Plus the extra hp on jump units is great. However, the default csm AC really isn't worth the purchase before you have a mark, it's just not worth 25 power, there's a reason it was only 15 in retail.

For MoT CSM the 25 power price tag is OK imo but for MoK the AC just feels overpriced.

I personally find that KCSM are awesome and 25 power for the AC is totally acceptable. Being shock troops and in particular quite likely to get special attacks off with the xp and nice special attack animation, having a 4th member adds that bit more shock value and sustainability in the front lines.

I still think that KCSM are undervalued by the community. That said AC on vanilla CSM is very very situational as it doesn't give you much at all by itself compared to the marked aspiring champ. As I result I agree with the premise that we could buff unmarked CSM with AC.

That said, I have used unmarked CSM AC before, however situationally:

a) I know what mark I am getting, but I want to get out into the field quickly, so I mark up once I'm out there during downtime.
b) There is quite a lot of melee, meaning KCSM could be quite a risky choice. However, I don't want to upgrade to TCSM since it is quite an expensive upgrade and takes away flexibility while not contributing anything to AV options. Thus I will get the AC on the unmarked CSM to give CSM more staying power and some ability to hold the line against melee while retaining flexibility to go KCSM if it turns out to be a better choice.

b) is extremely situational, but a) happens reasonably often for me. That said, a) does not prove that unmarked AC is worth it for cost.

So the general feeling is that vanilla CSM AC could give some kind of buff?

With the new patch notes released tonight, here's hoping he'll get some love

Codex's reasons for using vanilla AC are pretty much the same as mine.

I do like KCSM and find them strong enough though a lot more situational than TCSM. I still just don't find the 25 power squad leader to be reasonably priced. Especially with the increased cost of MoK.

Dark Riku wrote: Tex wrote:But its ok that he does nothing in vanilla form though right? How are we justifying the AC being ok for that price when he does absolutely nothing in vanilla. Lets take a look at any other squad leader, even without squad traits. I think you will find that they all come with a perk or an ability... except for... oh yes thats right... the Raptor squad AC.

See a theme?

Power melee for the raptors isn't a trait? How does the AC do nothing? Getting a Tzeench bolter or an axe and meltapistol isn't a trait? Why don't we give him 70 melee skill and a lil higher ranged dmg but not give him Tzeench/Khorne upgrades.
Then he can be the same like the rest, just like you guys want it to be.

Power melee for raptors? How about 1 raptor. Tell you what, I will gladly have an ability or a perk instead of gaining an extra 10 dps on the ASM sarge. I mean seriously, are we not considering that the ASM sarge comes loaded with an ability that can do well over 300 damage in 2 seconds? But 10 req difference is totally cool I guess right?

AC does nothing until you get a mark. That's the whole point! He isn't a tactical option AT ALL until a mark is purchased. Giving him 70 melee skill and a normal level of ranged damaged seem like absolute no brainer changes tbh. The fact that he costs 25 power and DOES NOT come with a perk or ability is what has everyone on my side of the argument up in arms. The mark upgrades cost a shitload and for good reason mostly. There is however, no justification for the CSM AC to cost as much as he does.

Tex, first of all, read the new patch notes and make the AC on raptors do 10 less dmg.
Then the AC for csm already does the same ranged dmg as the others. Just SLIGHLTY less but does more melee dmg. Sure, buff him and not let him be affected by marks.
Then he can be the same as all the other sergeants.

Let me put this differently: is there anyone who genuinely believes vanilla CSM AC is fine in current form?

Dark Riku wrote:make the AC on raptors do 10 less dmg

Why? The % dps increase on base squad member damage is pretty much the same for ASM and Raptor squad leaders, and they both get power weapons. The higher dps and lower hp seem pretty intrinsic for keeping the two units different imo.

Nobody does, 25 power for that AC is simply not worth it just like paying 70 power for a lascannon wouldn't be worth it despite it sometimes still being useful. However, 25 power for an AC when you have a mark is worth it, so the solution is either to make the default AC better or to decrease the price of the AC while increasing the price of the the marks, the first option obviously being better due to the sunk costs of making marks even more expensive. I think a increase to 70 melee skill + maybe 5 extra ranged dps, or even melee dps would be nice.

Torpid's post is an excellent analysis of the current state of CSM AC. I'm actually surprised nobody has explicated this before, near the beginning of the thread. Anyway, I think the best solution would be buffing the vanilla AC CSM, but those changes should only be to improve their utility or enhance their role, not to give them roles they ought not to have.

For example, I think giving them 70 melee skill would be excessive. I wouldn't mind giving the AC himself 70 melee skill, and even a special attack, but the squad as a whole should be countered by melee and hence vulnerable to it, and thus the vanilla AC would serve as a stopgap against melee without turning them into good melee units who would willingly engage in melee OR ranged.

That Torpid Gamer wrote:Nobody does, 25 power for that AC is simply not worth it just like paying 70 power for a lascannon wouldn't be worth it despite it sometimes still being useful. However, 25 power for an AC when you have a mark is worth it, so the solution is either to make the default AC better or to decrease the price of the AC while increasing the price of the the marks, the first option obviously being better due to the sunk costs of making marks even more expensive. I think a increase to 70 melee skill + maybe 5 extra ranged dps, or even melee dps would be nice.

+1

Codex wrote:For example, I think giving them 70 melee skill would be excessive. I wouldn't mind giving the AC himself 70 melee skill, and even a special attack

He already has a special no?

I actually don't know As I've mentioned the cases where I buy AC before Marks are very limited, and the cases where I'll willingly engage in melee with them is even more limited as a result. Perhaps someone could enlighten me?

I agree mostly with o0oTorpid858o0o and qCodexp. I think vanilla AC already has a special attack though. Maybe 5dps ranged dmg increase is bit too much. I'd be satisfied with CSM ranged damage and 70 melee skill for AC.

AC does have a special attack. Just you rarely see it. Because he has only 60 melee skill. And really one performs one against other squads similar his own 60 melee skill.

For the record, all melee weapons have a 30% chance to perform a special attack. With the exception of a few.

The base for a special attack (which can not go any lower) is 5%. Based on who has the higher\lower melee skill determines the chances of performing a special for both squads. This paragraph is my hypothesis.

I use Cope's Tool, and messed with melee skill and UI stuff. Why my source is me.

The 30% chance however is found in "special attacks" of the weapons like chain sword\chain axe.