Dawn of War Codex

Ok... Let's drop the sarcasm here guys. I find it entertaining but it is hardly constructive.

Tex wrote:

Ace of Swords wrote:

Tex wrote:
Your starting unit cannot be used in any fighting capacity at all without spending power.

Are you talking about scouts?

No... scouts have half the dps of tacs and less than half the cost. Keep them in green cover and they definitely have fighting capacity.

But of course, you are being slightly sarcastic to begin with, so... w/e.

I'm not sarcastic because you are entirely wrong in both the things you said, half of tact dps.... is that supposed to make them sound scary? Because it's actually a pathetic amount of damage, you want to know what also does scout ranged dps? ASM pistols.

Now on the part where you are wrong, unupgraded tics perform fine for their cost, it's the AC tics that became completely irrelevant both early and late game while the nade launcher ones became way better.

Carnevour wrote:

Ace of Swords wrote:

Tex wrote:
Your starting unit cannot be used in any fighting capacity at all without spending power.

Are you talking about scouts?

Yeah such a shame that a cheap unit with really good utility and being very good capper sometime needs to spend power to perform different roles when the situations requires. SM defo got the most 1 dimensional heavy bleeding unit that doesn't even perform well anymore if only they had the super duper tics in their roster they would be the best faction in the game.

Sometimes? You need to spend at least 30 power to make scouts relevant, 55 if you want to actually want to make them a combat unit, this goes for every game against every faction, unless you intend to spac tacts, that's the reason why SM is always behind in every tech race, you have a melee counter that can't counter initiate and has meh but very expensive anti-melee which bugs 3/4 of the times and the 1/4 only supresses instead of knockbacking.

But we're not here to talk about scouts in any case.

BloatedChamp] I cannot afford 25 power AC in t1 for his lack-luster benefits. [/quote]

I agree. I don't even bother in T1 anymore, T1.5 units or teching faster is way more appealing.

[quote="Tex wrote:Your starting unit cannot be used in any fighting capacity at all without spending power. Further, Doomblast and heretic melee damage are such a joke that the chaos vs ork, chaos vs eldar, and chaos vs tyranid matchups have become completely broken (imo of course...).

I think it really is the combination of nerfing both melee and DB. It's just too much, one or the other wouldn't be so noticeable. Were they really over-performing in melee that much? They get melted by pretty much everything anyway and they need a little time for their normal melee damage to do any work so the melee damage nerf I don't feel has been all that crazy and has done what was intended; made them less viable as a unit you run straight at your enemy. The Doomblast however, is like instant, inescapable damage. And it used to be scary, but not so much anymore

Tex wrote:You simply cannot win with the sorcerer, that's for sure. He is the hero who has been hit hardest by the heretic no melee patch.

I definitely feel the changes with the Sorcerer in general more than any of the other champs. The CS has always seemed to struggle with tanky melee heroes early game - I feel like I can usually cut down high model units with Doombolts to make up the difference with high model units but Dbolts do way way less against single entities; Doomblast was really helpful.

lol... I love your wonderfully supported statistics at the end of your post there Ace.

"bugs out 3/4 of the time, and then only suppresses the squad the other quarter of the time". =D
To that I would reply, try using the catachan shotgun blast, and you will likely never complain about the scout shotgun blast again. Heck, I want the mod team to replace the catachan shotgun blast WITH the scout shotgun blast so that it actually starts working more.

Anyway, its clear we have different opinions on this matter and I'll leave it at that.

Tex wrote:lol... I love your wonderfully supported statistics at the end of your post there Ace.

"bugs out 3/4 of the time, and then only suppresses the squad the other quarter of the time". =D
To that I would reply, try using the catachan shotgun blast, and you will likely never complain about the scout shotgun blast again. Heck, I want the mod team to replace the catachan shotgun blast WITH the scout shotgun blast so that it actually starts working more.

Anyway, its clear we have different opinions on this matter and I'll leave it at that.

Pretty sure they are the same thing, except that catachans having more models and not all of them equipped with shotties have an harder time getting in position to use the ability, which is precisely what happens to scouts and thus the ability either doesn't work or doesn't work as intended to.

Yeah I'm finding it to be similar. Heretics are falling off a bit faster than what one would want.

Worship is still pretty decent but the overall effectiveness of the unit definitely has lost a lot of merit with the recent changes. It's become less of a game of chicken when you're 1 vs 1'ing a starting melee squad and leans more towards the opponent winning that engagement.

I would prefer to see something along the lines of their normal DPS come T2 in the same way that Shootas get their DPS back to make them a bit more relevant.

PhatE wrote:Yeah I'm finding it to be similar. Heretics are falling off a bit faster than what one would want.

Worship is still pretty decent but the overall effectiveness of the unit definitely has lost a lot of merit with the recent changes. It's become less of a game of chicken when you're 1 vs 1'ing a starting melee squad and leans more towards the opponent winning that engagement.

I would prefer to see something along the lines of their normal DPS come T2 in the same way that Shootas get their DPS back to make them a bit more relevant.

They are needed desperately to be effective in t1 not in t2 where they fall off and provide mainly worship. Just go as an ork 3 sluggas or 3 hormas as nids and see how chaos cannot do anything about it and giggle on how stupid the whole situation seems. They were fine and performed they role well as a squad that can take enemy melees squads with support. Now even 2 tic squads wont do jack shit to sluggas or shees, hilarious isnt it?

To be fair 2 tics will lul shees or sluggas if they gang up on them at the same time. If they come one after the other, you will reduce the shee/slugga squad to 1/3 or 1/2 hp with 2 tics.

That said, melee heretic T1 performance is pretty bad now imho. Though Riku did win the latest tournament with Chaos so maybe it is just a L2P issue for me.

I know it's not the topic, but I'm with Ace on the scouts thing. Bar the shotgun exaggeration.
The annoying thing with the scout shotgunbug is that it usually results in squadwipes, from my personal experience anyway.

Carnevour wrote:Just go as an ork 3 sluggas or 3 hormas as nids and see how chaos cannot do anything about it and giggle on how stupid the whole situation seems. They were fine and performed they role well as a squad that can take enemy melees squads with support. Now even 2 tic squads wont do jack shit to sluggas or shees, hilarious isnt it?

Can you stop overexaggerating like that? Tripple melee squads is in no way an easy win verus Chaos. What do they do versus NM's while being shot to pieces by the rest of the Chaos force? Supression teams, etc... If you want "proof" you can look up 2 games of me VS Mathis' tripple slugga build. (CL V WB/mek)

@Nurland: I still personally feel Tics could use a little love, but then again I'd also do some other changes ...

Dark Riku wrote:@Nurland: I still personally feel Tics could use a little love, but then again I'd also do some other changes ...

just curious, what would be these other changes ?

Well, I for one would love to know your overall thoughts on Chaos Riku. Consider this one vote for writing up your thoughts on a new thread.

Cyris wrote:Well, I for one would love to know your overall thoughts on Chaos Riku. Consider this one vote for writing up your thoughts on a new thread.

Admins caught the dialogue between Riku and Carnevour before most people could read it. He wasn't going to discuss it here so you'll need to ask him for an answer.

Carnevour wrote:

Asmon wrote:They cost 190 req lulz. Two squads will still do fine in melee and be cost-effective.

So let me guess i need to have 2 tics constantly together to have a chance to countering a melee squad? Great concept. So instead of having old tics that cost 210 and did their job fine now I have a cheaper unit but which is so shit that it serves a purpose of being a soft melee counter? Why not have banshees be a soft counter to csm and sm, just drop their price and get 2 its going to be fine dont worry brah. Note i didnt even ask for a buff to them or anything im asking they give less xp to enemy heroes and units due to them being currently a pile of rubbish, since you can get around it with new builds or experimantation but you cannot get past the fact that you need more tics than before and they bleed all the same making an enemy hero lvl 3 by T2.

1 tic squad with champion is nothin to scoff at. Its a support unit while ur tics slow down enemy melee infantry your chaos marines can lay into them mind you Chaos marines hit pretty hard in melee to... chaos atm are pretty solid at countering melee units. Might not be the most efficient way with some chaos commanders butthe options are there

Kvn wrote:Your Tics are meant to act as a force multiplier for these units rather than do the job on their own.

This feels like the central point of the debate. People miss their tics being a DMU who could defeat and even wipe more expensive units in the early game. There was even someone who complained that tics felt "too much like a support unit", even though that is exactly what the design team has been aiming for.

I think part of the problem in setting balance for heretics is how the different commanders use their heretics.

Plague Champion is not much bothered by the nerd because they are worshipping any given fight. If they are being thrown into melee is with Touch of Nurgle, which more than compensates for the nerf.

Similar with Chaos Lord, it's the worship you want to get your CL into melee, and position the CSM for damage.

For the sorcerer it gets much harder because he is relying on the heretics as his melee counter initiation unit, so the nerf hits him hardest.

My big question would be, how can the sorcerers heretics be buffed without changing the other two? Maybe a wargear that could help the sorcerer support those unis? Maybe change how tics behave for the sorcerer specifically? I haven't come up with any ideas yet. Do other people have thoughts on this?

Chaos Sorcerer could use Corruscant Flames on heretics. Its great against low HP high model squads, not so great against SM/OM.

Maybe a buff on the Corruscant Flame ability to increase their synergy?

One of the ways you can support your tics is to get the sword of flame as early you can - I really feel it's almost a necessity now that tics have their damage reduced and it's kind of a shame - I rarely get the staff anymore, even though that plasma cannon-like ability is really good, it's just not as cost effective as the sword and you have to wait till T2 to get it. When tics were a little more threatening I was far more comfortable not getting any weapon till T2. Now the SoF is just such a better option and you can use the ability to help your Tics against melee units. I've found this nerf has made the SoF far too desirable while making those initial engagements a little harder and I'm really not sure what the remedy is.

It also barely helps against commanders, high model units like Interceptors and power armour races. There's nothing wrong with not being so good against a certain type of unit but I felt Tics raw damage + DB mitigated this somewhat. Now it's more noticeable and the SoF flame damage doesn't help all that much.

What if the damage type was set to be like inferno or something? So that the bonus damage against LI is the same but it does a little better against power armour races?

According to my experiance ;

Tics are not a melee threat anymore. This is a big issue. They are always being beaten hard by Banshees, Sluggaz and Hormogaunts. They were performing good enough untill this patch, now I only doomblast and retreat them out of there.

They are not even an anti-melee squad anymore too. ASM just beats heretics without fear. Now, the word ''fear'' is important here. I am not expecting tics to solo ASM, but I need them to make them think twice before they jump on my havocs.

My suggestion is; with the Aspiring Champion upgrade, tics should have their old melee and doomblast damage. Well, even without doomblast buff, we need the melee improvement here. They don't even have their own special attack which is a decice thing in a melee fight. They need some buffs.

Ordie wrote:My big question would be, how can the sorcerers heretics be buffed without changing the other two? Maybe a wargear that could help the sorcerer support those unis? Maybe change how tics behave for the sorcerer specifically? I haven't come up with any ideas yet. Do other people have thoughts on this?

Back when I started playing sorcerer I'd have imagined the SoF's ability's damage would also stack depending on the model count of the squad in question, making it best for heretics, but turns out that it apparently makes no difference whether it's casted on a full heretic squad or the sorcerer alone. With just a bit more power investment you'd be better off casting it on your sorcerer and warping on top of the enemy's ranged units while his melee units are distracted with your meatshield heretics, such as in a very early engagement against an ork or tyranid player. Doesn't even need to be with the SoF as disrupting ranged units is enough to have them not shoot and therefore not kill the heretics even faster.

Point is, the SoF could be given a change to stack with greater model counts, and obviously balance the damage around that new trait afterwards. Not only would it help heretics, but also reduce its effect on low or single model squads comparatively. Even the icon of the ability has a heretic in it!

Well more models in a squad does equal more radius to protect the flaming aura from, I believe.

The increase to tic xp was very appropriate when it was introduced, but various (good) changes to them have made it less necessary. Tics need a buff, but it should be very, very small. I'd be super in favor of an XP reduction, AC increasing melee/doom damage, or both with an increase to the cost of nade launchers (or a small damag reduction to them / revert of the autogun damage).

In short, tics have many buffs/nerfs in a number of different directions. With their new cost as a tent spike (which I super approve of), some other small changes could help reconcile their new position.

That said, Chaos as a whole are still real potent and versatile, so it's hard to feel bad for them. They have the ability to make good ranged blobs, melee rushdown and defensive hold compositions, as well as a number of potent commander wargear options.

Cyris wrote:In short, tics have many buffs/nerfs in a number of different directions. With their new cost as a tent spike (which I super approve of), some other small changes could help reconcile their new position.

What is a tent spike?

Tics synergise well with Sword of Lame. More models = larger area (as Torpid pointed out). Doomblast and Raptor jump also make it harder to kite the burning squad and stuff takes valuable extra damage when they derp around suppressed.

ServantOfTheForums wrote:What is a tent spike?

An unmoving thing to work around. It's possibly a bit jargony from my work place, but it's the arbitrary call that X is how things are going to be (in this case, the cost of tics) and that other things get balanced around that point. It's generally intentionally arbitrary, but serves as a good way to force a chain of logic down to the end and see how things shape up.

The metaphor is that you're making a tent but how do you set it up and where? Start by just arbitrarily putting one spike in. Now your next choices are constrained a bit, but at least we can finish putting it up, then step back and judge how it went. Maybe we move it a little, or maybe we have to go back and pull out that first spike.

thnx for the insight cyris I could use that some day.

what are you working? you can PM me ofc.

All I can really say is that the sorcerer got shit on by the neft to tics.

If I could only choose one thing, it would be for the tics to regain some melee damage and doomblast damage with the purchase of the AC.

Dark Riku wrote:

Carnevour wrote:Just go as an ork 3 sluggas or 3 hormas as nids and see how chaos cannot do anything about it and giggle on how stupid the whole situation seems. They were fine and performed they role well as a squad that can take enemy melees squads with support. Now even 2 tic squads wont do jack shit to sluggas or shees, hilarious isnt it?

Can you stop overexaggerating like that? Tripple melee squads is in no way an easy win verus Chaos. What do they do versus NM's while being shot to pieces by the rest of the Chaos force? Supression teams, etc... If you want "proof" you can look up 2 games of me VS Mathis' tripple slugga build. (CL V WB/mek)

@Nurland: I still personally feel Tics could use a little love, but then again I'd also do some other changes ...

I agree with carnevour, any mass melee builds absoluty wreck PC/SORC 1st engagements. As a PC player I found I stopped going multiple tic builds. May as well get double or triple CSM. For the firepower, melee and staying power. It's not like I gain any bonus for multiple PC worships....



I have to go now, cause my girlfriend is bugging me and thinks i'm retarded for writing about this shit..

If you're losing to 3 squad melee builds as PC, you're doing something wrong.

Yeah, I am losing cause I am using Tics to counter initiate ^_^