Dawn of War Codex

Before we get any farther, I'd just like to remind people to keep it cordial and not devolve into hilarious name-calling.

hiveminion wrote:You should not dismiss people demanding explanations for balance changes, after all you want consensus on changes and a consensus is useless unless people can make an informed opinion.

I would like to redirect you to my original post which did not imply Nid AV should be centered around the Zoanthrope, although it always has been and currently is now. However, considering your desire for consensus and a quick, easy solution to current Nid AV problems, the Zoanthrope became inevitably the only available option.

Ok, fair enough that people deserve explanations. Those are typically either done in the patch round table or in the patch notes themselves ,but this is a case where people saw most of it before release. Still, I maintain my point that the best feedback on changes offers some kind of explanation for their opinions.

Right, my point is that we can potentially have so much better options on the table than just a revert on Zoans. I do think that more heads can be useful in dealing with these sorts of problems because if you focus too hard on one opinion, other possibilities tend to get overlooked.

I know you didn't mean it this way, but consensus is something that SHOULD be strived for, and not be dismissed for the sake of expediency. Of course, you can't always get everyone to agree, but I really do believe that the best solutions tend to come after some good debate.

Doing that is hardly quick and easy, and I don't expect a solution to Nid AV issues (again, whatever you define that as) to be any different. I'm hardly convinced that the Zoanthrope is our only option. THAT is what sounds quick and easy. Which again circles back to my first and main point:

These topics are more complicated though and so they will have to wait until 2.7

hiveminion wrote:
1. Tyranids need some way to diversify their game play by opening up new build options.
2. Tyranids need a ranged anti-vehicle snare in T2.
3. Genestealers need to hold their own in close combat better.


3. Genestealers are supposed to be a melee superiority unit but they fail at this role because they require Warriors in close proximity that explode all over the Genestealers on death. This in itself is a fine and interesting mechanic but since the nerf to Genestealers they seem to lose out in melee fights more often than not. They are extremely susceptible to both knockback and suppression. I would suggest restoring their ability to its previous form, or giving them temporary knock back resistance while its active to compensate.

okay, back on the original topic. I would disagree that Genestealers are not holding their own in CC. the changes to Adrenal Rush in 2.5 decreased the damage increase and health regen, but increased the damage reduction. they already have a ton of melee damage and an amazing melee skill (80) even without warriors around. with the addition of warriors, they get extra damage reduction, an additional 10 melee skill and a massive health increase, which i think more than compensates for the potential of synapse bombs. they should definitely be winning just about any infantry-based melee fight they find themselves in simply due to their ability and high melee skill.

Where I do think they could potentially get buffed is in their ability to counter vehicles. I think the idea of giving them temporary knockback resistance with the Adrenal Rush ability is very interesting, and could serve to make them more reliable AV rather than being countered by shotgun abilities and the like. i'm not sure if i think synapse bombs should still trigger a knockback or not but i would much rather go in the direction of giving more consistent AV options to other units rather than trying to bring back the zoanthrope snare.

giving Genestealers temporary knockback resistance with Adrenal Rush ability is fucking stupid their not an av unit their are melee superiority unit no other unit unless Lightning Claws Terminator or full upgrade on nobz or melee dread can go toe to toe with them so giving them knockback resistance is fucking stupid when only suppression or knockback is their real weakness. thb their Rending Claws should go back to t3

Where I do think they could potentially get buffed is in their ability to counter vehicles. I think the idea of giving them temporary knockback resistance with the Adrenal Rush ability is very interesting, and could serve to make them more reliable AV rather than being countered by shotgun abilities and the like. i'm not sure if i think synapse bombs should still trigger a knockback or not but i would much rather go in the direction of giving more consistent AV options to other units rather than trying to bring back

this is why you should not be involved with any balancing of tyranids cos it these ideas what lead to things like Chosen Plague Marines in 2.4 raping anything

boss wrote:giving Genestealers temporary knockback resistance with Adrenal Rush ability is fucking stupid their not an av unit their are melee superiority unit no other unit unless Lightning Claws Terminator or full upgrade on nobz or melee dread can go toe to toe with them so giving them knockback resistance is fucking stupid when only suppression or knockback is their real weakness. thb their Rending Claws should go back to t3

feels like you're ignoring the realities of current state nids.
Genestealers are most definitely an AV unit. they may be a melee superiority unit as well but they deal more than 200 heavy melee dps....
if you dont think they should get knockback resistance, but still think they are not serving well as AV, then propose another option. dont just ask for nids to go back to their pre-2.5 state (which is also ignoring the fact that they were pretty OP back then).

genestealers should not be an av unit in t2 the change was stupid and lazy from caeltos you now have a melee superiority unit that has av in t2 but don't work cos no snare saying their an unit is like saying Ogryn Squad is av sure they do av damage but does this do anything for them not really buy them self's but cos that have snares and good dps form lascannons melt storms ogryn can kill vehicle with help. nids only have venom brood and their dps is not great and to make matter worse then have no snare and the only other unit is zoans fwb to death way

Crewfinity wrote:Where I do think they could potentially get buffed is in their ability to counter vehicles. I think the idea of giving them temporary knockback resistance with the Adrenal Rush ability is very interesting.

Tbh, that would be broken af. Genes are already awesome, they can solo non-melee dreads, deff dreads, and delete misplaced transports even without melee synapse. They are more than holding their own, they are freaking scary!

Melee dreads are a pain in the ass, but they are very expensive, and if nids keep opponent under a lot of pressure, they should have multiple sources of AV by the time dread hit the field. From my experience best counter to dread spam is a fex spam, sad state of affairs but that's ok with me.

Regarding HT nerfs.
Is speed nerf really necessary? HT can already be easily kited and focused down, he lacks sidearm and can not bleed enemy efficiently. Nids army relies on a high mobility, dancing around your enemy and setting up favouring engagements. If HT will be so slow his usefulness in t1 as a synapse creature and a big tank fellow to soak up the damage will be crippled. If you want to tone down HT a bit, because everyone is playing him, nerf his charge speed, damage or health pool, but speed reduction is a uncalled for.

Don't overnerf sporemines and HT, please
On the over hand crushing claws should not be so cheap, 150\50 is a good price for 108 heavy melee dps on a tanky hero with a knockback immunity, assuming he is not a slowpoke.

Tyranid av is fine from my point of view. Yes it's weak in some cases and mostly in the melee form, but that's how it is. If traditional snare is introduced for nids, it might be too strong because of a lot of AV being heavy melee, which benefits far more from snare than missile tacs for example.There are some problems in some MU, and they were mentioned before, but i don't think they are easily fixable without creating even more problems.

All of that is from 1v1 perspective, nids in team games are unplayable for me.

P.S. Tyranids as a race are very flexible, they are far form a-move faction.I didn't play this game pre 2.5.1 so i dont know much of a dreaded OP LA from a far dark past, but i checked a lot of 1v1 replays from tyranid mains, and each of them had his own gamestyle. I love it, and hope you guys can keep it that way.

TBH i think the only change to Genestealers that should happen is the fact that they take 18% of their HP and damage from a synapse bomb opposed to 14% on the hormagaunts and termaguants.

That being said the only change genestealers should get it the reduction in the synapse bomb damage they take because it's ridiculous. Move it down to 14% and thats is pretty much all they need.

I watch the replay that you put up crew and I have to say if fe didn't throw you would have lost when he bashed your gens if anything that game proves that nid av is bad cos 1 you never brought venom brood you got the ht venom canon which is way better cos 100% fire on the move 2 dat why you don't send genestealers AG warriors vs Mark of Khorne dread they got away 6 time with only 1 or 2 guys for genestealers and just one ag warrior each time your lucky that they both lived that long and the only reason why you killed it cos low on heath and for some reason he pushed with it vs the ht gens and av warriors with low heath. I don't no how good fe cl is but he should have won quite easy he wasted his 2 dread for nothing if he didn't lose his Khorne dread and got 2nd one you would have bin so fucked no power no rec and just dyeing.

1.So that replay only showed that ht still has to make up for the race bad av.2 that map is not great.3 don't send genestealers AG warriors vs melee dread cos you wont win and 4 ht venom canon is better then venom brood and 5 your nid play not very good

boss wrote:I don't no how good fe cl

It just as bad as that map, that was my 10th game as cl. This game should not be used as a reference to anything, lol.

Crewfinity wrote:Genestealers are most definitely an AV unit.

Nice

Torpid wrote:Another thing considered was giving warriors a dedicated AV variant using the barbed strangler model that would snare vehicles. Giving it to the warriors instead of the venoms is beneficial since we see warriors far less these days, especially in T1. It gives nids scaling T1 AV potential and also benefits the RA/LA more than the HT as they rely on BSWBs in their T1 a lot more as he focuses more on ravs.

I guess it depends on how much the snare is, and for how long, but given its range I'm not sure how helpful it will be. It will still expose them to plenty of fire on the approach, and give the target plenty of time to kite. Nids can kite melee walkers like any other race without too much of an issue, I believe the main problem is dealing with fast vehicles like tanks/transports.

Zoan's snare fit this just fine (albeit with OP issues already discussed). If you want to diversify Nid gameplay, your only other T2 options for nids that go pewpew are ravs and venoms.

Giving venom brood a snare will make them overpowered I no that their been talk about them doing less damage for snare but when where your dps coming from then and don't tell me 2 venom brood cos that don't work in 1s at all unless your desperate.

Raveners having a snare will make no sense most of their energy goes on their burrowing not snaring and we back to the zoans will just fit and as broodwich says these are your only units to put a snare on unless your planning on adding more units to tyranids

Maybe take a look at rippers as an ensnarement tool?

Thunderhost wrote:Maybe take a look at rippers as an ensnarement tool?

in 1s your opponent would have to be very stupid to let rippers snare his vehicle even then they would just die before they get a chance to plus it a melee snare nids need a range snare

Obviously we need a ripper cannon.

ripper cannon their no such thing so. yea so what's going to have the snare then?

2.6.1 HT changes suck. If you want decent AV you'll have to deal with the annoying slowpoke of a hero, whos hobby is to path block hormagaunts. Granted i only played 3 games with the new HT, but i was frustrated like hell in all 3 of them. It seems like a minor change, yet it's freaking huge deal for me - I just don't want to play my favorite hero anymore.
I want to hear other's opinion on that subject.

fe_ wrote:2.6.1 HT changes suck. If you want decent AV you'll have to deal with the annoying slowpoke of a hero, whos hobby is to path block hormagaunts. Granted i only played 3 games with the new HT, but i was frustrated like hell in all 3 of them. It seems like a minor change, yet it's freaking huge deal for me - I just don't want to play my favorite hero anymore.
I want to hear other's opinion on that subject.

yea I said this would happened with ht to torpid the speed nerf was just stupid and was no need for it I only played 5 games 2 3v3s and 3 1v1s and lets just say if I was ra or la these games would have been a lot easy to win feels like now going ht your handicap yourself all he can do is now cap in 1s good luck in getting him to level 2 at all unless his range I be more happier with his speed goes back to 4.5 and give ht 1000 heath if you want him to be nerf and change some war gear that's to cheap, I see what crew said about bc being to slow a few patch's ago when his speed was nerf his speed can go back up to 4.5 like he used to be he not a 1 man rape Any anymore.

also la is a joke now well done for breaking him other than the heath buff their was no need for any gear buff or changers what the point of giving la a snare we want the race to have a snare not up to the hero to make up for a weakness of the race I just don't no what to say I say these thing are not right and yet you go head and do them anyways and yet you still not fixing what wrong with tyranids no fucking range snare still if you cant fix tyranids then let me do the changes for you cos at this rate I hate to see what changes you got in mind for them

fe_ wrote:I just don't want to play my favorite hero anymore.

Join my club!

I only started playing nids in 2.6, but I already feel the HT speed nerf. At least the CL and BC have ranged weapons to peel off some hp from kiting units, and they are faster.