Project Balance: Eldar section

[Torpid]

Warp throw and the other accessory would be mutually exclusive...

It's a very good idea. It would allow for builds then centre around champion robes in t1, but still kurnous in t2, getting a sort of best of both worlds sort of thing which I imagine could be strong vs orks.

[Bahamut]

a mutually exclusive mechanic is generally a bad concept. Rather see cost increase or so more direct nerf

[Torpid]

No, it's naturally mutually exclusive because both are accessories.

[Dark Riku]

It is not too tanky. Much less tanky than anything FC, CL, BC or even LA can do. And with less DPS.

It's more tanky than any of those can do expect the fc terminator armor.

[Bahamut]

No, it's naturally mutually exclusive because both are accessories.

nvm then, though you were suggesting them to be exclusive with other types of wargear

Warlock with prominence is definitely tankier than a FC, dunno about the rest. I would think the chaos lord is tankier but the warlock can cause way more havoc in the back lines than a chaos lord and unless the LA has lone hunter and it's actually benefiting from it the warlock should be always tankier than the LA even with the 20% from partial cover

Something that pisses me off quite a lot is how good destructor is against high model count squads like tics and gaunts. Is not only plain better than smite but in t1, but also better than doom bolts by far, and on a melee offensive hero unlike the chaos sorc. I'd be nice if it got changed to plasma type damage, or it'd lose cooldown if the warlock cuts animation like libbies do for smite

[Ace of Swords]

Without doubt with heart of darkness it tanks way more damage than any other hero, normally it still tanks more damage simply because it has a quite long,baseline leap and it's faster, meaning that it will take way less ranged damage than these heroes.

A complete rework could be an accessory that reduces ability energy costs.

That would be cool, even a 50% reduction on all abilities would be fine, and finally the T2 armor would be viable, especially when paired up with immolator and kuronos.

destructor/etheral slash

destructor is a problem only vs tics.

and the ethereal slash is fine overall, it shouldn't do all that damage in retreat, I've been finishing off nobs squads easily with it.

[Tex]

Do you use destructor?

"It is far superior to doombolts or smite".

Do you know that destructor does a different damage type than those two abilities?

Do you know that smite can be buffed to the point of insanity?

Do you know that doom bolts has the highest damage ceiling of all three of these abilities (excluding buffs)?

Do you know that doom bolts has a lower cooldown than destructor?

[Nuclear Arbitor]

changing the damage type to plasma would not affect canceling. it would make it do more damage against HI/SHI and less against infantry.

[Bahamut]

Doombolts are easier to dodge, since the projectiles have slower speed, destructor has a bigger telling on the warlock's animation but the warlock doesnt lose the cooldown if he cancels it which is why i think is better. Also granade damage is far superior than plasma in t1

Imo, just by changing the damage type to plasma it should be fine, makes it a tiny bit better vs HI but not as crazy good against light infantry

[Nurland]

Dodging Doombolts is not that easy when playing against a good Sorc player. And Doombolts severely hurt every single T1 squad. So I wouldn't call Destructor a superior ability.

[Asmon]

It's more tanky than any of those can do expect the fc terminator armor.

Let see at level 1 how do they compare to each other:

Warlock + Champion's Robe + HoD: 690 + (150 + 100x5) + (150 + 65x5) = 1815 hp

Speed 5.5, leap, no melee charge, cannot fotm, 65 melee DPS max. And HoD is not always available ofc (it adds 475 hp).

Force Commander + AA + IH: 820 + (200 + 120x5) = 1620 hp

Speed 5, Melee charge, can fotm, +0.25 hp regen, 85 heavy_melee DPS max.

Chaos Lord + HoR + DH: 1000 + 150 + 100x5 = 1650 hp

Speed 4.5, melee charge, can fotm, weapon kb and suppression immune, +0.25 hp regen, + 5 energy ie 25 hp per hit, 110 power_melee DPS max.

Warboss + EA + BP: 860 + 900 + 20% = 1940 hp

Speed 5, melee charge, can fotm, very hard to suppress, 95 heavy_melee DPS max.

Lictor Alpha + DJ + TLH: 630 + 150 + 25% less damage received = 1040 hp

Speed 5.5, melee charge, cannot fotm, can infiltrate, +2% max hp per hit (16 hp at level 1), around 94 power_melee DPS max.

Hive Tyrant + BExo + WF: 1080 + 300 + 100x5 = 1880 hp

Speed 4.5, melee charge, no fotm, weapon kb and suppression immune, can turn invulnerable, 108 heavy_melee DPS max.

Brother Captain + HAoT + TUP: 1000 + 400 = 1400 hp

Speed 4, melee charge, can fotm, can increase his speed and take less ranged damage, weapon kb and suppression immune, gains more speed and health regen when under 50% hp, can turn invulnerable, high DPS (can't recall the figures).

I added a lot of data because they are relevant. No matter how tanky you are, if, for instance, you cannot deal damage, then you won't perform well (except for captures). Anyway, it is obvious to me that WL does not particulary stand out compared to other offensive commanders, especially considering that he's the weakest damage-wise, he is easier to kite due to the lack of melee charge (FoF does reduce melee damage by 40% and health by 200 if you consider the energy shield) and he cannot regain health nor energy on hit.

Now, I'm all for a new HoD, which is atm a poorly designed item from Relic. I suggested it to reduce ability energy costs hence a better synergy with CoS and another weapon than MWB. I'm glad to see some players agree.

[Dark Riku]

So the only one more tanky is the HT who wasn't even on your original list.
And the Warboss who conveniently got a T3 upgrade ...
You just proved my point (Giving that the numbers shown are correct).

Anyway, it is obvious to me that WL does not particulary stand out compared to other offensive commanders, especially considering that he's the weakest damage-wise, he is easier to kite due to the lack of melee charge

Leap... You are also not taking in consideration the tiers and the prices. Merciless Witcblade has a fuckton of traits. Drains energy, shuts down anything on ranged stance, even suppression teams, amazing special, great damage to all infantry targets.
The Warlock's utility is super high. Amazing globals. Turret? Immolator, NP. etc, etc
He stands out a lot!

[Flash]

BC is 100 dps melee vs a single target (hammer) or 83.3 power melee dps with 10 dps splash in 3 radius (halberd) or 83.3 single target power melee with buff dmg reduction.

Just to add those numbers. Carry on.

[Asmon]

So the only one more tanky is the HT who wasn't even on your original list.
And the Warboss who conveniently got a T3 upgrade ...
You just proved my point (Giving that the numbers shown are correct).

What is your definition of tankiness? There are many. If we're talking about heroes that captures a point, then only Terminator FC, HT and WB are indeed tankier (though for BC it depends on what kind of attack he is under), assuming WL can use his ability, which is not always the case (300 damage taken needed, 60s cooldown).

But if those heroes are attacking, then the regeneration (on hit) becomes a major parameter, and heroes like CL and LA turn out to be much more tankier than WL.

Also DPS matter. And the fact that WL is the weakest DPS-wise isn't negligible, especially since his damage type is also the worse.

I'm not quoting the rest of your message. I'm not denying WL utility (actually I'm not even talking about it). We're talking about tankiness and I made my point.

Last thing: what's wrong with T3 upgrades?

[Forestradio]

BC is 100 dps melee vs a single target (hammer) or 83.3 power melee dps with 10 dps splash in 3 radius (halberd) or 83.3 single target power melee with buff dmg reduction.

Just to add those numbers. Carry on.

you forgot that his upgraded force sword is 40 power melee DPS.

It's an overlooked weapon.

[Flash]

Since he seemed to be going for max dps, I left that one out.

[Faultron]

about the warlock hero, i agree with asmon
he is a utility hero and not a tank, he cant function like a tank , +not a strong offensive melee fighter
HoD rework is a good idea

and the replays from Tex are not good to prove that eldar is ,op' in this or this,
he won because he is more skilled, there is a replay where he just win battles ,easy' with nice stealth play for example.And most of the players seems doesnt even know how to counter his strats in general.

and webway gates are stronger with WSE hero cos of natural teleport

all the people who complains about eldar should play more eldar in general...

price change for webway is max (75-100) what i can imagine with incrased CD, in the worst case:), or moving it to tier 2 and not touching anything else?

Edit: also count that if you do jedi build (which is the worst to do) you dont have any other unit to tank except avatar and seer council (which is a real tank) ,other race has T1, T2 tank units to help.so jedi is pretty much alone and easy to focus down, and he doesnt even deal high damage or threat enough to focus him so badly

[Maestro Cretella]

I'll accept that the merits of the Warlock as a tank compared to other heroes are debatable, but whether or not he can tank is not. Saying that he is not capable of tanking is just outright wrong.

[Torpid]

Suffice to say if a speed 5.5 hero with a passive leap into combat and an ability which buffs speed (by default) were as durable as the speed 4.5 HT/CL then I don't think there would be much of a debate to be had.

The debate I think more so revolves around said hero to be as tanky as he is, while simultaneously having such a powerful weapon in t1. The strength of the warlock's jedi/tank build is that it requires strong investment in t1 while granting very good t1 pressure and scaling fantastically because of one, the utility of his MWB (energy drain, tracking special, knockback on demand) and two, because the fact that he can add to this level of tankiness with his HoD in t2, assuming the foe is struggling to handle it, or given that the foe is doing quite well he can instead opt for warp throw in order to control the foe's controlling units...

Overall though to be honest, I think the problem lies in his accessories more than anything else. Spending 65 power on your warlock in t1 makes him strong, this is what ought to happen. It forces the eldar into a very heavy t1, and then to add to this the eldar themselves are rather poor at genbashing as a race and so a fast vehicle is often strong against eldar, even these days with their changes. The warlock himself can't do anything against a vehicle and the eldar is likely to be behind in tech. Given that eldar are a race that bleed horribly when they fight a scenario in which they aren't favoured having that tech advantage is extremely effective against them.

Like I said before, the accessories are the most problematic. I would really like to see warp throw moved into t3, then HoD changed to grant the warlock reduced energy costs, without changing his t1 wargears.

[Caeltos]

Your wish shall be granted. Heart of Darkness will be reworked.

Can't promise it can make it in for the next update, but I'll try.

[Asmon]

Huhu =)

[Toilailee]

Huhu =)

I lol'd when you mentioned fc/wb/cl can fotm but omitted to mention mwb range kb.

And HoD is not always avaivable but all other hero wargears are? :]

Your wish shall be granted. Heart of Darkness will be reworked.

Can't promise it can make it in for the next update, but I'll try.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

i really hate tracking specials on principle; remove it from mwb and leave it at that for the moment?

[Asmon]

And HoD is not always avaivable but all other hero wargears are? :]

Yes bro. Only HoD has an ability that needs to be loaded and has a cooldown. That's what I meant.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

not true, providence functions the same way.

[Forestradio]

not true, providence functions the same way.

So does And They Shall Know No Fear, if by "loaded" Asmon means you must take damage to activate it.

[Faultron]

i said he cant function like a tank: i meant this way(jedi)
he dont have good dmg or dispruption threat when he reach his target or initiate the fight, yes he has nice effective hp but what he does with it
(what is tracking special btw?)

the MWB is slow wep and not even heavy melee or splash dmg
u cant use fleet floot cos u loose tankyness+damage
bad scaling after mid of t2

any hero is strong if u buy 2 wargear in t1

the wargear option is just retarded and limited and not good synergy, acesssory items are good but only HoD has synergy with the t1 armor.T1 armor force u to do jedi build which is bad.

maybe we could add an option/rework to do better spell damage/ better synergy with spell caster build? for example
destructor: u do more dmg if u buy the specific wargear, or dmg goes up as u lvl up with ur hero, + cd decreased a bit

[Tex]

?????????????????????????????????????????????????

"Warlock damage is bad?" Is that why he constantly tears shit to pieces?

"Warlock doesn't have splash damage?" Ever seen his special attack?

"You can't use fleet, you lose tankyness" Ever tried using his global to move faster?

"Bad scaling after mid T2" I can't believe you think that the warlock scales poorly into the late game! HE IS A UTILITY HERO THAT CAN TANK LIKE A MOFO! UTILITY AND SUPPORT HEROES SCALE TO THE HIGHEST LEVEL IN THIS GAME!!!!!!ONE ONE ONE 1!

I mean seriously, should I just shoot some options out there? I guess so since I'm all fired up now.
1) Use warlock to open up late game engagements with cloak of shadows + distort field. He draws a shit ton of fire and takes 0% damage from range.
2) Channeling runes on level 4 banshees or seer council is essentially death to anything in melee.
3) Immolater to destroy almost any buildable structure in 1 cast. (like a VP camping turret)
4) Warp throw to completely destroy a static defense.
5) Providence so you can go buckwild and cast w/e the fuck you want non stop for 16(?) seconds.

GAH!

[Faultron]

Tex you missunderstood my post a bit i think ,this is an added thoughts of my 1. post+ answer

yes WL damage is not high compare to others melee offensive heroes
he dont have splash damage, he has special attack indeed which is based on luck
yes i use global speed (which cost red), but somebody mentioned the default fleet floot

i said the bad scaling about using the jedi build

[Ace of Swords]

His jedi build can easily tank for a good amount of time T3 units, and can easily cause alot of damage to something like non-lc termies.

Also, no hero but the BC has splash damage.