Sub_Zero wrote:You responded like all politicians do. General words and no specifics. And yes I won't be trying to get answers yet again. Because the perspective to see a bunch of negative words does not appeal me at all.
P. S. And in regard being blind on my main faction's problems. I don't really think that space marines have stuff that is overperforming or unfair (with rare exceptions). When all races got new units space marines got an unreliable artillery piece and some really situational upgrades for units. And popular belief about strong SM T3 now doesn't seem adequate. And that is because of all the new units that can hurt terminators badly. And hey terminators are not exclusive anymore! But whatever...
Oh fuck off you twat. Just because you don't understand it, doesn't mean I'm trying to be manipulative.
The post I was referring you would have to re-read is this;
People are generally just to stubborn to not try to look into a unit on it's generalistic design and approach to the army composition they serve and utilize, instead they will direct and compare to other units with similiar traits, yet they are fundementally designed differently.
Because your post, straight after I posted my opinion on the matter was followed by these few things.
Why melee oriented terminators were added for each commander in the first place? How can it be explained? Why Chaos was in need of more melee units when there were a lot of them already?
When lightning claws chaos terminators and lightning claws loyalist terminators were equalized in terms of combat efficiency why their cost has not been adjusted? Heretics now are cheaper to reinforce, chaos marines have been cheaper to reinforce than tactical marines since forever. What bleed chaos req to justify the lower cost (-100 req to upgrade, -50 to reinforce a model)?
Do you as the creator of this mod tolerate such things as copy-paste units?
And now some thoughts about Chaos T3 overall. Chaos T3 has 2 superunits and two kinds of terminators (they were stolen from Space Marines and became better) and it has the tank with 3 different upgrades. And SM can only afford tzeentch mark for their tank and the land raider redeemer. And only one commander can get two kinds of terminators, one commander has no unique unit whatsoever and another commander can get the venerable dread. The unique unit of the Force Commander was donated to each chaos commander. And there will be no rest for me while this injustice exists.
Infact, your whole god damn post was a big insult of not giving a shit of what I just said. Coupled that with your agressive response with some negativity and you expect me to be all fine with it?
PS.I didn't even specify the people who were being bias, but I appriciate your honestly. It really showed through tho at the end.
Would be appreciated, if you explain me, what "general eco-structure" means? Yes, I know that chaos units are averagely cheaper - but what does it mean in relation to terminators ?
(Absolutely no offence, I'm really trying to get behind it.)
Well, Space Marines have a fairly high health pool, coupled with sustain and firepower. Compared to Chaos Space Marines, which trade that for potentially higher unit count, and agressive capability. However, in return - the Chaos Space Marines will generally also suffer more requisition/attrition bleed effect through-out the game.
This is why in Chaos Retail, usually always stuck around in T2 forever, partially due to to general economical push-backs that was caused as long as T1/T2 purchases were made, the T3 300/150 + Predator cost was an unfathomable high resource pool to accumulate in a 1v1 scenario. It was a much safer bet to try to sustain yourself at 450 in T2 to keep applying the general pressure potential.
Now, with a 210 tic squad, coming in at around 13 req/per model iirc. and 75 req per CSM. Etc, both of these units have generally a fairly low health compared to the Space Marine counterparts. So it's a trade-off from being able to apply pressure (heretic model count, etc) is diminished by the attrition effect.
Coupled with an Apothecary that can even have a further effect on the economical war, the Space Marines will generally with an apo have a better eco-sustain through-out the game, assuming both are playing on an equal level. But there are trade-offs and differentials from each commander in all respective matchups, and it's abit too in-depth to try to clarify all these, so I'm trying to keep it simple.
Another thing, is Chaos are specialists, whereas Space Marines are a generalist faction by inherit design. That's why some units are the way that they are, in order to preserve that element as well.
Now, if you're not familliar with the term of specialist vs generalist. I'll try to explain it in DoW2 Fashion;
- Tactical Space Marines: Capable of equipping with a variety of tools, and are fairly respectable in melee combat with a sergeant. They're a jack of all trades type of unit. Capable of being decent against everything, but not overwhelmingly powerful against something.
- Chaos Space Marines: Specialized unit that favors going for a specific route, that enhances their performance in a direction they see fit. These upgrades will trade one thing for improving another. Mark of Tzeentch, more favoreable in ranged combat, but trade their melee damage for ranged. Or Mark of Khorne, that makes them more fierce in melee, but less capable of being an actual ranged combat squad.
That's abit of the very short version of things. However, there are some "generalistic upgrades" primarily. And Bloodletters used to be a fairly generalistic unit as well back in Retribution/Chaos Rising due to heavy_melee, which I was never personally very fond over. They were able to single-handedly take out vehicle play fairly well, espicially with heretic support. That's why I made Bloodletters back again to being a specialized squad instead. Despite Raptors having certain similiarities, the Raptors are capable of furthermore specializing themselves into a directional route of being a dedicated AV-squad that can quickly close the distance. Compared to Vanguards, as an example, that are more potent at dealing with everything, but at the same time maintaining the potential to get a Power Fist to become a generalistic squad. But trying to keep it somewhat reasonable, the Melta Bomb is not maintained through the purchase to ease out some restrains on the capability of the generalistic squad potential. If you give too much variety and option for the generalistic squad there's a potential that it becomes borderline just too much. See Bloodletter for abit of a reference, on where I thought it went abit overboard.
Sternguards are pretty much as well, the generalist squad in-perfection. With weapon ammo that is capable of dealing with everything, they can quickly swap on the fly to deal with whatever threat they seem fit. However, unlike Tactical Space Marines that are more capable of specializing themselves abit, within their inherit generalistic design. (Plasma Gun, etc does not reduce the overall melee effiency of the squad) the Sterngaurds trade the overall specializing for a more generalistic approach through-out.
Now, back to the eco-structure. Terminators for Space Marines should be high reinf cost, but at the same time, their durability and sustainability and overall effiency should be in "harmony" with the overall army composition within their roster. That's why they are higher then the Chaos Space Marines Terminators, since Chaos suffers generally abit more overall req/attrition through-out the game.
This is also why GK Terminators are also abit less well. A big part of that is due to Stormtroopers being more based on heretic-attrition design, they die more often then scout, but problably not as much as Heretics. However, GK's also don't suffer as much as bleed as Chaos Space Marine "Tougher unit" counteparts, but when they do, it should be respectively high.
-> See cost reinf. per model for GK's for an overall look, higher reinf. cost per Purgation, Interceptor, Purifier etc, and quantity based Stormtrooper.
-> See cost. reinf per model for Chaos for an overall look, quantity based reinf. cost per squad. Heretics, (4x Man Bloodletter/Plague Marines) and Chaos Space Marine durability comparison etc;
Just an example; Space Marines are abit of the inbetweeners of the two factions, or well GK/Chaos depends on how you look at it. All have their unique eco structure based on their own faction army compositions, not a direct comparison of the units.
This is why I also believe that Chaos was one of the strongest factions back in Chaos Rising in particular, because they had the most favorable and rewardable agression based playstyle in the early-game, and once you figured out the eco-weakness of Chaos mid-game, you would have to mitigiate it's effect in the mid-game by playing defensively. The one that did that really well, in my opinion is the Chaos Lord, since he has the most punish potential of Chaos Space Marines with less restrains on your overall counterpush potential. (Sorcerer would lose out energy/health more easily) whereas the Plague Champion is the one that is abit of both, but not neccasarily specialized in anything in some matchups back then.
So, there you have it. I hope that answerered abit of about the eco-structure topic. And this is why I frown upon also direct-unit comparisons, because they overlook the army compositions and the functionality of the factions on their own, for the sake of argueing over the comparison of X vs Y unit.
No more cheaper Chaos Terminators.
