Dawn of War Codex

Well I just said I would make it a normal model and the grenade launcher would transfer if Cats die.

Regarding the balance issue, I feel that the unit behaves in a weird and illogical fashion (models not dying to sniper shots etc.) and IG balance shouldn't revolve around that. If it hurts IG economy tweaks can be made to their model/upgrade costs or elsewhere.

If there's going to be a rapid-patch beta phase again, a change like this should suit it well.

biggest issue with the launcher changing guys is that it will effect their ranged damage as the grenadier only has melee animations. the way the squad originally worked was that the sword guys did the standard melee damage but much less ranged damage, making the squad strong in melee. with just shotguns the ranged damage is reworked a little because it's either spread over more people or it increases.

the grenade launcher could also potentially end up on a sargent, such as the melta guy, if it swapped around. really just a badly designed squad.

my personal suggestion is that the melta sargent be removed and the melta gun treated as a standard special weapon. that would remove one die last leader. removing or treating the grenade launcher the same removes another. making the demoman just an upgrade brings the total down to one die last and two special weapons. the upgrades could instead add pop to the squad to keep the number of units the same.

Nuclear Arbitor wrote:biggest issue with the launcher changing guys is that it will effect their ranged damage as the grenadier only has melee animations. the way the squad originally worked was that the sword guys did the standard melee damage but much less ranged damage, making the squad strong in melee. with just shotguns the ranged damage is reworked a little because it's either spread over more people or it increases.

How will it affect squad damage? Right now the GL guy dies last. If I change the mechanic, the GL is moved to the last guy standing. It stays the same...

Regarding shotgun damage, if the pistol guys get shotguns it must be lowered. If the pistol guys are removed, it stays the same. Relic fucked this up, increasing shotgun damage (because of model count going down) but forgetting the ditched models never had shotguns...

Nuclear Arbitor wrote:the grenade launcher could also potentially end up on a sargent, such as the melta guy, if it swapped around. really just a badly designed squad.

Oh come on. When was the last time you saw a Tac Sergeant with a missile launcher or a GM Commissar with a flamer??? It can be prevented...

Caeltos wrote:It has severe economical impact with catachan bleed being increased...

...I'm actually not that actually keen on making any adjustments to it, since it has a broad impact on their whole-economy from both early-game to late-game.

Sorry Caeltos...are you saying that making a key IG unit act like a normal unit and not in a unique, retarded way will completely screw the IG eco?

If that's the case then IG economy as a whole needs to be reworked (particularly early T2), and Catas along with that.

Lulgrim wrote:Regarding the balance issue, I feel that the unit behaves in a weird and illogical fashion (models not dying to sniper shots etc.) and IG balance shouldn't revolve around that.

If there's going to be a rapid-patch beta phase again, a change like this should suit it well.[/

I get the feeling that the IG economy was not designed as well as the other races'. I mean why does the Manticore cost 100 power and Ogryns 90 (+25)?? If the only reason is that IG has the excess power from T1 as a result of not bleeding cata models then the eco really needs to be redesigned.

@ That Torpid Gamer

Spotters HARD counter suppression teams. I dunno what you are talking about.
You have smoke and kb/aoe(T2) on 2 different cooldowns. Catachans with demo man do not lose in close combat to asm even when they get jumped on.

That Torpid Gamer wrote: There's a reason why they have so many die last models,

Yes, there is a reason: Bad design.

Lulgrim wrote:I am not sure if the knife & pistol models serve a function (besides a visual suggestion that the unit has some level of melee performance).

They do not deal the ranged dmg that the shotgun models do.

Just make the knife/pistol guys shotgun models too and adjust ranged damage accordingly. Make the melta guy and grenade launcher guy like a tac weapon upgrade so it transfers to another shotgun model on death.

Lulgrim wrote:How will it affect squad damage? Right now the GL guy dies last. If I change the mechanic, the GL is moved to the last guy standing. It stays the same...

yeah, i guess you're right. a shotgun get's turned into a grenade launcher but it's as if the shotgun guy was killed instead so it works out.

Lulgrim wrote:Regarding shotgun damage, if the pistol guys get shotguns it must be lowered. If the pistol guys are removed, it stays the same. Relic fucked this up, increasing shotgun damage (because of model count going down) but forgetting the ditched models never had shotguns...

exactly

Lulgrim wrote:Oh come on. When was the last time you saw a Tac Sergeant with a missile launcher or a GM Commissar with a flamer??? It can be prevented...

here's looking at you, HWT. you're right in your examples and i don't know why squad leader special weapons work, excepting HWTs, but that was such a mess i'm a bit paranoid about it.

all units has issue with bleeding i think
i saw yesterday CSM was under 2/3 health and no model lost. why we have to play like this?or we cant fix this problem?
or this is normal lol?

Faultron wrote:all units has issue with bleeding i think
i saw yesterday CSM was under 2/3 health and no model lost. why we have to play like this?or we cant fix this problem?
or this is normal lol?

Randomness. Also ranged fire tends to hit all models evenly in a lot of situations.

CSM usually start losing models after they drop below ½ health.

If you want to bleed model you need to start firing at max range (38 for most units, whereas sight radius is 40, hence the difficulty) so every model shoots at the same enemy model. Then never lose track of your target. Obviously this situation hardly happens.

Only (sub-)commanders are reliable when it comes to lock on a model. For instance that's why CL will always kill at least one Scout model if he chases them long enough.

Since its kinda on topic,

doesnt anyone else think that Catachans are over-versatile? [not calling them OP]

But they get shotguns that deal full damage at all ranges,
a shot gun blast to counter melees,
a grenade launcher to counter garrisons,
a barrage to counter set up teams,
smoke shells to tank ranged attacks,
a melta gun to harass vehicles
power melee attacks against commanders and Heavy Infantry,
they cloak,
put down explosives
dedect infiltrated units
are hard to bleed thanks to 4 or so sergeants,

( I really hope i didnt add something wrong / forgot something )

dont get me wrong, they dont really seem to hard counter most things,
but they pretty much do everything there is, takes micro ofcourse.


I really like the changes ELITE did to Catachans so far but -

I wondered, woudnt it be atleast an option to take away their dedection ability, now that spotters can do it? Or add damage fall-off to their shot guns?

They are fine as a unit, but their bleed still need to be fixed, since they have 4 die last models.

Their bleed is perfectly fine. They scale poorly considering their bleed and upkeep. Generally they are a detriment to have to buy. They only really pay-off if you can get a squad wipe, which is certainly easier said than done.

They cost 60 power for a t1 unit, are extremely fragile, have short range, can't FOTM and do mediocre ranged damage (what is their damage in elite?).

Or add damage fall-off to their shot guns?

This fix is most welcome

Their bleed is perfectly fine.

Their bleed is horribly bad. They do not lose models = they do not lose their dps. And piss people off getting away with 1/4 or 1/3 health and all models. But I should mention that in Elite mode they bleed a bit easier.

are extremely fragile

Scouts are extremely fragile. And they considered as a melee counter too, by the way.

do mediocre ranged damage

Tactical marines with a flamer get their ass kicked by them in t1...

Always want to know what their dps values in elite mode. Can anyone tell me? And what is their melee skill? If they are a ranged unit their melee skill should be equal to tactical marines/chaos marines. In retail they were pretty broken. 30 power melee dps on each model. And 18 piercing dps on each model with a shotgun (demo man does 20 dps).

Imperial Guard have no problems with melee squads in t1. Sentinel's constant fire and its stomp. Catachans with high melee damage and 2 disrupt abilities. And 2 heroes capable of beating the crap out of melee units.

i had no problems with your post zero until you said that last part, their commanders suck against melee, let's take ork slugga boyz as an example

Destroy inquisitor early without any wargear
Destroy commissar lord if he doesn't get lucky specials
Destroy the lord general easily.

Their commanders do not deal with melee very well, especially in the early game.

Sub_Zero wrote:This fix is most welcome

This is most certainly not a fix for reasons I shall mention later on.

Sub_Zero wrote: Their bleed is horribly bad. They do not lose models = they do not lose their dps. And piss people off getting away with 1/4 or 1/3 health and all models. But I should mention that in Elite mode they bleed a bit easier.

Yes, I'm fully aware of the state of the way in which they function with regards to bleed and again, I shall reiterate, that is perfectly fine. Catachans are expensive to lose but have only slightly more health than guardsmen, while being a dedicated melee counter (susceptible to special attacks) and having no FOTM and short range (meaning out of cover in ranged fights). Granted that the IG economy already dictates that a long t1 and prolonged early t2 is highly detrimental, and that catachans already cost 60 power for a fragile t1 unit, any further nerf to their economic utility would make the squad completely un-viable.

Sub_Zero wrote: Scouts are extremely fragile. And they considered as a melee counter too, by the way.

Scouts don't cost 60 power. Scouts move at speed 6.5. Scouts can FOTM. Scouts aren't wiped instantly by artillery/grenades. Scouts don't instantly die to aoe based weapons.

Sub_Zero wrote: Tactical marines with a flamer get their ass kicked by them in t1...

What? No, flamer tacs incinerate catachans.

Also, they most certainly need their 70 melee skill to counter jump units, otherwise the special attack spam would kill cats in seconds.

What? No, flamer tacs incinerate catachans.

I do a lot of tests with my friends. And I have tested cats vs flamer tsm as well. And cats kill flamer tacs even without using abilities. Cats' flame resist armor helps a lot.

Let's have a look on space marine's t1 roster. There are no melee squads. Jump squads get countered by shotguns' damage and shotgun blast ability. And scouts cannot win in melee against any melee unit. Catachans do more ranged damage, have the same ability and able to literally rape any jump squad in melee combat. And I see no point to have high melee skill for a ranged unit. I think beefy in melee combat ranged squad (cats, csm, tsm) always risk to fly around when engage a melee squad with higher melee skill.

I think fire on the move with 50% accuracy won't be broken. However ranged damage output should be reduced in this instance.

OK, I just imagine things. The talk is not about it. Get rid of 4 immortal models and they will be fine.

while being a dedicated melee counter

But have pretty good ranged damage. Ain't too good for a dedicated melee counter?

Nurland wrote:CSM usually start losing models after they drop below ½ health.

yes i know and this is the problem, this game has too much random things, why cant we fix this one ,bug' atleast.(and ppl wondering why dow 2 was not succesful, random things are the worst mechanics/feature in a rts game) I dont understand, if we can fix this problem why ppl want to play a game with this random bleed.

Asmond, i know you didnt meant this way but:
saying that i need to shoot with my soldier(with machine gun) from longer distance to achieve more bleed is not the right way:) the mechanic should been fixed.you dont use pistol effectively from sniper range.suppression teams at least works normally.
i know you just wanted to help me out but this mechanic is weird, and makes the random bleed problem more problematic.

Sub_Zero wrote:I do a lot of tests with my friends. And I have tested cats vs flamer tsm as well. And cats kill flamer tacs even without using abilities. Cats' flame resist armor helps a lot.

Just because x beats y in a lab fight does not mean x counters y and no way is an indication of balance, e.g. tanks against lascannon teams. This is because DoW is a game of counters and has thousands more variables in each fight you so rarely get full health shit shooting/hitting each other with no other things. Cata need flame resist armour or they would get totally trashed by flame attacks.

Faultron...plz someone help this noobie

Faultron wrote:all units has issue with bleeding i think
i saw yesterday CSM was under 2/3 health and no model lost. why we have to play like this?or we cant fix this problem?
or this is normal lol?

All other units have this randomness yes.
With Catachans it isn't random. It's always.

That Torpid Gamer wrote:Their bleed is perfectly fine. They scale poorly considering their bleed and upkeep. Generally they are a detriment to have to buy. They only really pay-off if you can get a squad wipe, which is certainly easier said than done.

They cost 60 power for a t1 unit, are extremely fragile, have short range, can't FOTM and do mediocre ranged damage (what is their damage in elite?).

No, their bleed isn't fine.
There is nothing wrong with their scaling.
Improvised Explosives, cata melee will kill shit fast (in retreat). Especially with the LC.
Do not argue about stuff you don't know anything about!

crazyman64335 wrote:i had no problems with your post zero until you said that last part, their commanders suck against melee,...

I think he ment with an upgrade of some sort. Like the LC power sword.

That Torpid Gamer wrote:Scouts aren't wiped instantly by artillery/grenades. Scouts don't instantly die to aoe based weapons.

They can when placed correctly like with Catachans -.-

Faultron wrote:yes i know and this is the problem, this game has too much random things, why cant we fix this one ,bug' atleast.(and ppl wondering why dow 2 was not succesful, random things are the worst mechanics/feature in a rts game) I dont understand, if we can fix this problem why ppl want to play a game with this random bleed.

This isn't a "bug" nor should it be changed. Imagine losing an asm model at 800/1200 HP all the time or something similar. That would be retarded.

Catachans do high dps because they don't FOTM and are much shorter range than other units. Which means most of the time catachans are having a ranged fight with tacs the tacs are in cover and the catachans aren't. Even if the catachans are it doesn't matter due to the flamer. Furthermore compositionally catachans are at the forefront of the IG army, behind the sentinel, they must be to use their ol reliable effectively. The result of this is they often get focus fired immediately (given their subpar range), and suppressed for a short duration in which the flamer tacs go to town on them. Contrastingly scouts hide behind the entirety of the SM army.

If ASM land their jump on catachans and have flamer tac support they will slaughter them, or if they get lucky and proc a few specials they will slaughter them, or if they are in t2 and have merciless, again, they slaughter them, I don't mean beat, I mean slaughter, like you may as well instantly retreat the catachans for it isn't worth the bleed. The same applies with all dedicated melee squads in t2 vs catachans though.

Furthermore why do you assume that ASM must fight catachans head on? Catachans get no melee charge and IG get no jump units, so suppress their blob, then jump their guardsmen, while re-setting up the dev to focus the catachans, melee apo ties up the other GM, ranged sm units focus fire inq/LC (ignore LG) or the catachans (or a suicidal sentinel that trys to stomp), or as an FC just BC and use ASM+FC on the catachans...

@Riku, yes, I know nothing about catachans, it's not like I'm one of the only people who bothered to main IG in 1v1 on elite.

Catachans are way more susceptible to grenades due to their squad format. One wraithguard volley will instantly wipe a suppressed/immobile fully upgraded full-hp catachan squad, as can one grenade in retreat. This doesn't happen to scouts nowhere near as often.

IEDs are not as useful as scout grenades.

How do catachans get into a position to retreat kill with melee in t1 due to them being needed as a linebreaker; it would suicidal for them to flank, considering they have no escape mechanism or melee charge. In t2 this is acceptable due to IG having access to many other options to linebreak, in fact their entire t2 does it to some extent. Still, in t2 catachans are very very vulnerable to aoe, or any dedicated melee squad.

That Torpid Gamer wrote:If ASM land their jump on catachans and have flamer tac support they will slaughter them, or if they get lucky and proc a few specials they will slaughter them, or if they are in t2 and have merciless, again, they slaughter them, I don't mean beat, I mean slaughter, like you may as well instantly retreat the catachans for it isn't worth the bleed. The same applies with all dedicated melee squads in t2 vs catachans though.

2 squads against 1 in the theorycraft

That Torpid Gamer wrote:@Riku, yes, I know nothing about catachans

Finally some sense.

That Torpid Gamer wrote:IEDs are not as useful as scout grenades.

You are right, they are way better.

Dark Riku wrote:

That Torpid Gamer wrote:If ASM land their jump on catachans and have flamer tac support they will slaughter them, or if they get lucky and proc a few specials they will slaughter them, or if they are in t2 and have merciless, again, they slaughter them, I don't mean beat, I mean slaughter, like you may as well instantly retreat the catachans for it isn't worth the bleed. The same applies with all dedicated melee squads in t2 vs catachans though.

2 squads against 1 in the theorycraft

Ok so let's add 6,000 guardsmen to the equation:

6,000 guardsmen + catachans vs ASM + Tactical marines with flamers
= 1 + 15 vs 10+10
= 16 vs 20, therefore SM win this engagement.

you seem to be forgetting two things 1) Guardsmen do tiddly-tickles to any SM unit bar their hero/scouts without PGs and 2) Compositionally other IG units have to prioritise killing the hero/scouts/devastators way before they can consider fighting asm/tacs. Tacs on the other hand don't really have to worry about anything IG have and so can simply stroll over to the catachans to singe their ass. Maybe you would realise this if you played this MU a bit more...

Come on guys, what do you expect is going to come from posts like these?

Lectures, warnings and bans.

Orkfaeller wrote:Come on guys, what do you expect is going to come from posts like these?

I've come to expect the same thing: one person makes a good faith effort and writes a long, well written post detailing their logic, Riku responds with reductive, out of context one liners, first guy gets pissed, both people receive warnings for some fucking reason.

Sorry, had to say something.