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Re: GK Balance Assessment Thread
Posted: Wed 19 Feb, 2014 3:41 pm
by Forestradio
Sub_Zero wrote:I always aim for venom brood or warriors. Purifiers do power melee so they will kill a model very quickly. Genestealers will be knocked down and damaged. Warriors will retreat probably and now genestealers have no 90 melee skill. Strike squad can provide crippling poison. So you slow the advance of the genestealers and own the warriors. Strike squad will help to fight in melee. And energy restoration. Not enough help from them?
Cast the purifier's ability on the place when the fight will go on, jump with the interceptors to the genestealers, once they get up you are already working on the warriors with your interceptors and purifiers, cast the strike squad's ability on the genestealers, own the warriors, etc etc It all depends how you micro your stuff. Of course your opponent can cripple your units and use his warriors wisely. There are tons of variations, I can't cover them all. Again it all depends how you micro your stuff. Do you defend or do you attack? It also depends on circumstances.
EDIT: I have just realised how much control tools GK have. Mines, plasma guns, grenade launchers, SS's ability to slow down the movement of the targeted squad, Purgation squad's aoe ability to cripple units and their standard attack that suppresses, Interceptors' abilities to suppress and knocback (grenades, teleportation), Dread's maelstrom and Emperor's fist, Purifiers' aoe abilities, Brother Captain's nemesis vortex, hammer, psychic lash, canticle of absolution. With such a huge variety of tools if they lose melee fights then it is the player's fault. And how much synergies between all this stuff! Oh, damn, this revelation made me want to play grey knights again and be more creative.
Please explain to me how to buy all of those incredibly expensive T2 wargears and units when the nids player has been camping your power since T1.
Flesh hook=instant purifiers leader death=purifiers are useless for the remainder of the fight.
"Strike squad help in melee" no they don't, please don't say that.
"If they lose melee fights then it is the player's fault."
Ok, we'll reverse that. If the nids player loses vs a GK player he should learn to play lictor alpha better.
appiah4 wrote:Heavy Flamer Dreadnought vs 'nid melee blobs is a godsend.
Except by the time that comes out the nids player is t3 and probably has a carnifex on the way.
Re: GK Balance Assessment Thread
Posted: Wed 19 Feb, 2014 4:32 pm
by Dark Riku
Can we all calm down and stop with these exaggerations?
Re: GK Balance Assessment Thread
Posted: Wed 19 Feb, 2014 4:50 pm
by Torpid
Saying stuff that is just retarded though. A flamer dread vs nids? Are people collectively trying to pull my brain out? You're struggling to fight off their melee as it is and then you get a flamer dread, well, then it's going to be even more vulnerable to the venom brood and next thing you know you've got a carnifex on your ass which you haven't got a hope whatsoever in killing. smh @ pplz
Re: GK Balance Assessment Thread
Posted: Wed 19 Feb, 2014 5:11 pm
by Atlas
On a random GK tangent how does the Strike Squad compare to the Chaos Space Marines in terms of melee skill/damage both before and after the Nemesis upgrade?
Random people/posts tell me that the Chaos Space Marines were the best ranged unit in melee but I usually see the Strike Squad forcing melee in the replays I see.
Re: GK Balance Assessment Thread
Posted: Wed 19 Feb, 2014 5:28 pm
by Forestradio
Atlas wrote:On a random GK tangent how does the Strike Squad compare to the Chaos Space Marines in terms of melee skill/damage both before and after the Nemesis upgrade?
Random people/posts tell me that the Chaos Space Marines were the best ranged unit in melee but I usually see the Strike Squad forcing melee in the replays I see.
This is sorta complicated.
In Tier one:
Strike Squad do 23 melee dps with 70 melee skill and the ability to do special attacks.
CSM do 22 melee dps with 60 melee skill and no special.
With eternal war, CSM melee dps is actually higher than strike squad, but the presence of specials means that strikes win. And SS have more health.
In Tier two:
Strike Squad with Nemesis Focus do 23*1.3=30 melee dps with 70 melee skill and specials.
CSM will probably have eternal war by now, but they will still lose.
With Mark of Khorne and fully upgraded CSM will shred SS because they do power melee.
With Mark of Tzeentch and fully upgraded CSM also do massive damage to SS but if the SS can get into melee they will win.
Re: GK Balance Assessment Thread
Posted: Thu 20 Feb, 2014 7:03 am
by ThongSong
I've given up with gk vs nids tbh. nids will always beat you to t2 and GK just can't outmelee nids. while it is funny to see the brocap send a million tyranids flying with his daemon hammer, it generally isn't enough as your melee squads will bleed you disproportionately to what damage you do to the nids.
Re: GK Balance Assessment Thread
Posted: Sun 15 Jun, 2014 8:52 pm
by Ar-Aamon
Psychic Field of the Purifiers should do psychic_pvp damage instead of plasma_pvp for obvious reasons. Right now all infantry armor typs units are just tanking it especially setup teams aren't forced to move the position which is annoying. It works well against power armor setup teams though but fails against all others.
With this change the ability would do full damage against infantry armor types (instead of 0.7) and for heavy infantry nothing would change.
Re: GK Balance Assessment Thread
Posted: Sun 15 Jun, 2014 10:54 pm
by Kcets
ThongSong wrote:Warp Dust Addict wrote:
IMO main problem with GK is that they are almost a pure melee force but aren't very good at it.
gk melee is only good against things that cant melee back. interceptors are all good and well against sm/chaos until their commander pulls out a power melee sword
This. A thousand times. Every faction with decent melee (orks, nids, chaos, SM) can easily out-melee the supposedly melee-expert GK. And what to do for ranged? The currently under-powered Purgation?
Re: GK Balance Assessment Thread
Posted: Mon 16 Jun, 2014 5:28 am
by Bahamut
SM good melee? wat?
ASM are an awesome squad but they 1. don't perform well against dedicated melee squads, 2. they lose to GKI and 3. that's all SM has for melee
Re: GK Balance Assessment Thread
Posted: Mon 16 Jun, 2014 2:27 pm
by Torpid
Tbh I don't know why people say ASM aren't good vs dedicated melee because they really are. If you land the jump on any other melee squad in T1, given no ridiculously bad luck with regards to specials ASM win (except vs stormboys?). In T2 they destroy stuff with their merciless strike added into the equation, all the while you can often retreat ASM out of a melee fight that doesn't favour them after bleeding the other squad's models by 1,2 or 3 and your ASM lose nothing in return. That makes up for the initially higher sunk costs, although the jump ability helps too and the fact that SM have so much knockback potential.
Re: GK Balance Assessment Thread
Posted: Mon 16 Jun, 2014 2:38 pm
by Kvek
Bahamut wrote:SM good melee? wat?
ASM are an awesome squad but they 1. don't perform well against dedicated melee squads, 2. they lose to GKI and 3. that's all SM has for melee
SM have amazing melee, they have a shitload of melee-control even without commanders, librarian's inspiration(libby is good in melee, deal with it fanboy) with asms makes them beat almost every melee unit (expect termies n shit). and vanguards rape t2 melee units(not sure about genes, but there's no reason nids would want genes vs SM anyway...)
Re: GK Balance Assessment Thread
Posted: Mon 16 Jun, 2014 3:01 pm
by Forestradio
Purifiers need no buffs/nerfs atm, they are IMO the best designed unit in the entire GK roster, strong with lots of support options but with clear counters. Part of me wants their leader to be a permanent member in t3 though
As for the SM vs GK melee thing, first off don't even pretend interceptors are viable in any MU, and second off, GK have no problems dealing with SM melee unless you are heavily outteched by a FC player but that's your fault for being heavily outteched.
Kcets wrote:And what to do for ranged? The currently under-powered Purgation?
Purgation are fine in t2, decent anti-all ranged squad. They are meant to lose to dedicated plasma/inferno infantry such as MOT CSM and dark reapers. It's their t1 performance that is incredibly lackluster.
Relevant replay:
Re: GK Balance Assessment Thread
Posted: Mon 16 Jun, 2014 3:47 pm
by Ar-Aamon
Radio the Forest wrote:Purifiers need no buffs/nerfs atm, they are IMO the best designed unit in the entire GK roster, strong with lots of support options but with clear counters. Part of me wants their leader to be a permanent member in t3 though
This suggested change has nothing to do with the general design. It's more an amendment of an oversight... Right now all setup teams beside SM/CSM laugh when you cast Psychic Field. You can kill Plasma Devs with Psychic Field if they don't move. A HWT is barely touched by this ability because of the damage modifier. Is this intended? I don't think.
Re: GK Balance Assessment Thread
Posted: Mon 16 Jun, 2014 6:15 pm
by Kvek
Ar-Aamon wrote:Radio the Forest wrote:Purifiers need no buffs/nerfs atm, they are IMO the best designed unit in the entire GK roster, strong with lots of support options but with clear counters. Part of me wants their leader to be a permanent member in t3 though
This suggested change has nothing to do with the general design. It's more an amendment of an oversight... Right now all setup teams beside SM/CSM laugh when you cast Psychic Field. You can kill Plasma Devs with Psychic Field if they don't move. A HWT is barely touched by this ability because of the damage modifier. Is this intended? I don't think.
and where's the rest of GK's army?
Re: GK Balance Assessment Thread
Posted: Mon 16 Jun, 2014 7:52 pm
by Bahamut
Kvek wrote:SM have amazing melee, they have a shitload of melee-control even without commanders, librarian's inspiration(libby is good in melee, deal with it fanboy) with asms makes them beat almost every melee unit (expect termies n shit). and vanguards rape t2 melee units(not sure about genes, but there's no reason nids would want genes vs SM anyway...)
who the hell is talking about melee control? I'm not talking about how SM can or can't deal with melee, I'm talking about just SM melee capabilities
But fine, if you wanna be a retarded donkey why don't you show me a replay of any good player winning a game with a SM melee strat?. Even easier, gimme a melee strat for a SM army that doesnt use FC.. pfft
Re: GK Balance Assessment Thread
Posted: Mon 16 Jun, 2014 11:14 pm
by Dark Riku
That Torpid Gamer wrote:Tbh I don't know why people say ASM aren't good vs dedicated melee because they really are.
...
Lel.
Bahamut wrote:if you wanna be a retarded donkey
QFT
Re: GK Balance Assessment Thread
Posted: Tue 17 Jun, 2014 1:07 pm
by Kvek
Bahamut wrote:Kvek wrote:SM have amazing melee, they have a shitload of melee-control even without commanders, librarian's inspiration(libby is good in melee, deal with it fanboy) with asms makes them beat almost every melee unit (expect termies n shit). and vanguards rape t2 melee units(not sure about genes, but there's no reason nids would want genes vs SM anyway...)
who the hell is talking about melee control? I'm not talking about how SM can or can't deal with melee, I'm talking about just SM melee capabilities
But fine, if you wanna be a retarded donkey why don't you show me a replay of any good player winning a game with a SM melee strat?. Even easier, gimme a melee strat for a SM army that doesnt use FC.. pfft
So apparently melee control doesn't have to do anything with melee lelelel
and here's the replay...
http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=294657Bahamut, all your knowledge, did you gain so much macro about this game by winning the noob tournament?
and riku, if you dont have anything useful to say, just be quiet please...
Re: GK Balance Assessment Thread
Posted: Tue 17 Jun, 2014 3:01 pm
by Aertes
I still think that GK Purgators need more specialisation. Trying to be a good for all unit usually ends in a good for nothing one.
I think that Psi Cannons should be more AutoCannon-like and less HeavyBolter-like. Lower rate of fire but more power against vehicles and less against infantry.
Then, they could have a Psilencers upgrade that gave them the anti-infantry option, more similar to HeavyBolters.
And they would still have anti-cover weapons with the initial Inciterators.
Re: GK Balance Assessment Thread
Posted: Tue 17 Jun, 2014 6:22 pm
by Dark Riku
Kvek wrote:So apparently melee control doesn't have to do anything with melee lelelel
It doesn't have anything to do with melee capabilities, no. Reading comprehension...
Kvek wrote:and riku, if you dont have anything useful to say, just be quiet please...
If you'd follow your own advice, you wouldn't be posting anything at all. I suggest you follow your own advice.
Re: GK Balance Assessment Thread
Posted: Tue 17 Jun, 2014 6:41 pm
by Kvek
Dark Riku wrote:Kvek wrote:So apparently melee control doesn't have to do anything with melee lelelel
It doesn't have anything to do with melee capabilities, no. Reading comprehension...
Kvek wrote:and riku, if you dont have anything useful to say, just be quiet please...
If you'd follow your own advice, you wouldn't be posting anything at all. I suggest you follow your own advice.
lel
Re: GK Balance Assessment Thread
Posted: Tue 17 Jun, 2014 8:49 pm
by Atlas
This thread is quickly devolving :/
Honestly, I think at this current moment suggestions are a bit premature. We have a patch coming right around the corner that has a ton of changes coming in. We should wait till people have toyed with the changes before we really say x needs buffs or y needs nerfs etc etc.
Re: GK Balance Assessment Thread
Posted: Wed 18 Jun, 2014 2:26 am
by Kcets
Putting this on the back burner until after the new patch hits does seem wise. It's rather pointless to discuss changing things right before new and different changes occur.