Space Marine Assault Terminators for everyone.

[Dark Riku]

That box must be a pretty comfortable place to live in man... JUST JUMP OUT OF IT!

Your view must be messed up if you think my playing field is just a box.
Looks like someone else is living in a tiny shoebox.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with "back-teching". Like why on earth would you upgrade level 3 or 4 ASM into vanguard right? I agree, that would be largely stupid. Just build a new one and away you go. That's not even the point though.

Let's spend 650/105 on that unit in T3. That sounds a smart thing to do!
Also considering the time they take to hit the field and finally make an impact. (+60secs) Also not viable at all if you already have an asm squad because their counters are already on the field. Heck, HI counters should be everywhere already since you are playing SM.

What are LCAT's going to get done that vanguards aren't (in relative terms of course)? And further, what situations are you so incredibly hard done by that you need LCAT terminators to stay competitive?

The exact same "logic" can be applied to Chaos terminators.
Why are they needed when bloodletters/KCSM, TCSM and PM's already "fill" their roles?


+1 To Torpid's last post.

[Raffa]

"Does the Tech Marine/Apothecary need access to LCAT's to be competitive?"

No and IG didn't need spotters to be competitive, nor did eldar need reapers, nor did chaos need terminators

You sure you mean this?

Spotters were because IG relied on OP sentinels and catas in retail to deal with setup teams. Once these were fixed, IG needed a hard setup team counter. Dark reapers were because Eldar sucked ass against SHI and often used rangers as a light counter to them ffs. Chaos didn't need terminators per se, but after the heavy nerfs to T2 needed more incentive to go to T3 and they provide that so the entire T3 isn't countered by a lascannon

[Dark Riku]

Dark reapers were because Eldar sucked ass against SHI and often used rangers as a light counter to them ffs.

Eldar was definitely not lacking in the (S)HI counters. Their whole T3 can counter SHI. Ever heard of wraithguard and banshees? Entangling web comes to mind and a shit ton of other stuff to combo anything with to counter SHI.

[Torpid]

"Does the Tech Marine/Apothecary need access to LCAT's to be competitive?"

No and IG didn't need spotters to be competitive, nor did eldar need reapers, nor did chaos need terminators

You sure you mean this?

Spotters were because IG relied on OP sentinels and catas in retail to deal with setup teams. Once these were fixed, IG needed a hard setup team counter. Dark reapers were because Eldar sucked ass against SHI and often used rangers as a light counter to them ffs. Chaos didn't need terminators per se, but after the heavy nerfs to T2 needed more incentive to go to T3 and they provide that so the entire T3 isn't countered by a lascannon

Great, so they were all good additions if good is defined as working towards overall balance. However were they necessary for competitiveness? Are all heroes/races competitive atm? Tyranids in retail were competitive despite lacking the DOM. Why was the DOM added I wonder, especially considering nids overall got buffed slightly more than they got nerfed.

Reapers are just a sad sad unit. I remember nearly losing a game vs an eldar as chaos because I went for dual CSM and in t1 killed his shees and gu within 5mins, so he floated req and went WG+2x DR in t2. That's so hard to counter. Even with dual BLs they do so much damage and he replaced his shees. I never really thought they were needed and they really muck up the IG vs eldar MU

[Raffa]

Great, so they were all good additions if good is defined as working towards overall balance. However were they necessary for competitiveness? Are all heroes/races competitive atm? Tyranids in retail were competitive despite lacking the DOM. Why was the DOM added I wonder, especially considering nids overall got buffed slightly more than they got nerfed.

They worked towards overall balance, which for me is a good enough reason to implement them.

No I don't think all heroes or races are competitive right now you know that. But Apothecary and Techmarine certainly are in my books.

DOM I can't answer for. Clearly Caeltos felt Nids needed some severe anti-everything-not-a-vehicle in T3 but it perhaps shows it's a one-way ticket, once something is added in Elite it's not likely to be taken out, which is probably why da caeltos lawd is so careful before making changes like this.

[Torpid]

They worked towards overall balance, which for me is a good enough reason to implement them.

And I think LC termies for TM/apo would work towards overall balance of SM and their relatively weak late-game.

[Bahamut]

DOM I can't answer for. Clearly Caeltos felt Nids needed some severe anti-everything-not-a-vehicle in T3

Reaper cannon chaos termies?

It's funny how people justify chaos termies with "chaos needed insentive to reach t3" but with SM they say they had the "best overall tank" because you know.. chaos doesnt have predators

But OMG chaos has no reinforced plating!... but they have marks and WORSHIP to make their preds even better. I can safely say that 2/3 chaos preds are better than the SM version

Khorne pred is way way more killy than a autocannon pred with reinforce plating, and you can make it to tank almost as much with tzeentch worship, or make it even more killy with khorne worship

Nurgle pred is as killy as the normal autocannon SM pred with reinforce plating, but is way more tanky

Tzeentch pred is the only pred that's not superior than a SM pred, but it still has worship to possibly make up for it

Oh, and about the vanguard argument:

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TBH, i'd be happier if LC termies are removed as an option to chaos termies than if TM and Apo got LC termies

[Torpid]

And to further Bahamut's point - you may say that worship comes with the opportunity cost of losing a heretic for a while, however at this stage in the game that often isn't much of a big deal AND worship is free, unlike the extra armour of the SM predator.

[Tex]

Raffa, if you see fanboys everywhere, maybe it's time to stop and think if the problem isn't in you. That not everybody else is a SM fanboy, but that you are just a SM hater.

Tex, you don't get. This isn't about balance, more about improving SM gameplay. Asstermies are fun unit. They are really different from the rest of the SM roster, require different tactics and open up new possibilities how to play.

Did Chaos needed LRP or Termies? Did Orks desperately needed painboy or SM sternguards? What about IG and spotters, were they utterly hopeless without them? Was DoM essential to Tyranids? And what about GK, are there any balance reasons for a new commander?

No! But it was/is/will be good for their gameplay. It opened up new possibilites. There is no point in balance if the game isn't fun in the first place.

Asstermies would improve Apo and TM gameplay just by virtue of opening up more options. Would you get it as TM? Well, you very well might not, but someone else certainly would.

That's the general idea behind "Why?" Now balance and implementation must be judged, but nothing in this thread convinced me that there would be any serious problems.

To an extent, I must say, "fair enough". You are right, additions to variety are something that I almost always support.
However, I'm still seeing a blind eye turned to the counter variety that is being proposed semi-sarcastically:
Why can't the FC have access to the ven-dread since he will be short 1 unique global? Wouldn't this promote variety as well?

Variety is nice, but balance must always be used as the measuring cup no? I can go on, but it doesn't matter.

I concede the point of variety, but I'm just asking you to think of balance as well as fairness in a broad scape of matchups, as well as internally between all 3 SM heros.

[Tex]

See bahamut, at least you have somewhat of the right idea in comparisons. See Riku was saying that Vanguard ----> LCATS = KCSM -----> LCATS which is inherently wrong. (KCSM aren't a shock troop)

Bloodletters do indeed do a fantastic job of power_melee. I have a much harder time making an argument against "bloodletters are sufficient to cover the role of LCATs".

You are again however, skipping the inherent fact that making LCATs available to the TM and Apo pushes the FC even further down the charts of relevancy.
Another thing you might want to consider is the reward for getting out of T2 with chaos needs to be worth fighting for considering their T2 AV took a big hit in elite (obviously this one is highly debatable, but I'm sure you would find most chaos players feel this way).

Saying that reinforce plating means largely nothing is just downright ... wtf? 900 hp vs 700 hp is a big deal. Especially when 2 identical las preds are bombing each other and one of them finishes the fight while the other is wrecked because one of them had reinforced plating...
Khorne pred does less damage to vehicles and more to infantry with its bolters... wtf u smoking son? (I only buy this thing to deal with sub-commanders and commanders)
Nurgle pred does almost nothing to vehicles... again... ???????????????????????? (You think chaos has trouble against infantry or something?)
Tzeentch pred is a las pred with 200 less hp. Worship certainly helps, but don't you think SM support is pretty fucking geared to wrecking vehicles? It's not like SM doesn't have a hundred little tricks to pull out of their bag either uh?

Anyway, back on the topic, the only counter-argument I can make against bloodletters is that they aren't tanking shock troops until the worship support arrives. Vanguards most certainly are. Other than that, you pretty much got me on that.

[Dark Riku]

See Riku was saying that Vanguard ----> LCATS = KCSM -----> LCATS which is inherently wrong. (KCSM aren't a shock troop)

No I did not. I don't even know what all those arrows are supposed to mean.
You made the comparison, not me.

You are again however, skipping the inherent fact that making LCATs available to the TM and Apo pushes the FC even further down the charts of relevancy.

Nobody is because this isn't even a fact. The FC will still do what he does right now and neither the apo or TM can mimic what the FC does.

Another thing you might want to consider is the reward for getting out of T2 with chaos needs to be worth fighting for considering their T2 AV took a big hit in elite (obviously this one is highly debatable, but I'm sure you would find most chaos players feel this way).

Ow, boohoe. No more imba blooletters. "Chaos AV so bad QQ."
They handle vehicles more than fine.
Just throw out all the other AV buffs. Very good thinking pattern!

Chaos doesn't need to get any more rewards than other races for getting to t3.

Khorne pred does less damage to vehicles and more to infantry with its bolters... wtf u smoking son?

No it does not. You have troubles with simple ingame facts a ton Tex.
I don't know how to take you serious.

[Raffa]

Actually that is a very common mistake to make with the Khorne pred. Had a convo about this with Indrid awhile ago and he thought it was like Tex says, but it's not.

Khorne Pred was ballistic in retail, doing more damage than a Laspred to vehicles. Now MoK increases autocannon damage (120 up to 150?) and bolter damage by like 75%. It is a flat-out buff to all guns. However it costs and is less effective against vehicles than MoT, and less good vs light infantry than MoN (and less HP).

The Codex is wrong on this btw. Somewhere it said "autocannon damage reduced to compensate" which refers to how all guns get the 75% damage buff, THEN the debuff is applied to prevent the autocannon spiralling out of control like in retail.

[Wise Windu]

The Codex is wrong on this btw. Somewhere it said "autocannon damage reduced to compensate" which refers to how all guns get the 75% damage buff, THEN the debuff is applied to prevent the autocannon spiralling out of control like in retail.

Not sure what you mean when you say this, exactly, but it is correct in the Codex. And if you see a problem in the Codex, post it in the WIP thread so it can be fixed. Kthx.

[Raffa]

Wasn't an insult bro

[Wise Windu]

I know, sorry if that came off defensive. I just meant I didn't understand the sentence, I wasn't taking offense

[Dark Riku]

It's indeed 150,5 damage per shot, opposed to the standard 120 damage or the very low 86 on the Codex. (forgot to add +75% from the Khorne upgrade)

Not sure what you mean when you say this, exactly, but it is correct in the Codex.

Not atm :p I'll post in the thread.

[Tex]

Really?

My bad then, I had no idea that the autocannon got a flat damage buff as well. I was under the impression that this thing got a huge damage buff to bolters and a slight damage reduction to the cannon. Is that how it used to be?

So now the khorne pred does more auto cannon damage AND more way more bolter damage?

When the heck did that happen?

[Arbit]

I think this thread raises an interesting question, that being "what is the rationale behind any of the call-in abilities?" Does the WSE need discount warpspiders? Does the KNob need discount kommandos? LG needs a discount tank? Is the banewolf's ability to pwn your opponent's melee squads and gen farms instantly making up for some sort of deficiency on the Inq's part? What was the reasoning behind the farseer having exclusive access to the seer council?

When Tex asks why we shouldn't give all SM commanders the ven dread, well, why not? Of all three commanders the TM is probably most likely to build and carry a dread from T2 into T3 so the global seems pretty redundant from a strategic point of view. The vdread is locked into melee mode so the apo/FC would be able to fight alongside it, likely with some ASM, too (I know technically the TM can with his axe but IMO it's not a good idea to still be rocking the axe in T3). In terms of "need", the apo and FC probably would make better use of the global.

The answer to the above questions, it seems to me, is simply that Relic thought it was thematically appealing to see a KNob lead kommandos, WSE lead warpspiders, or the techmarine with their well known affinity for vehicles to have an exclusive vehicle. That's why melee terminators being exlusive to the FC always stuck out like a sore thumb to me - what specially affinity do force commanders have for melee terminators? It's especially arbitrary considering the other SM commanders can get terminators, just not ones with hammers/claws for some reason, and double arbitrary now that all chaos commanders can choose between melee or ranged terminators.

This isn't meant as an impassioned plea for melee terminators for all; it's more like... third party navel gazing about call-ins I guess. I would like to point out though that while "coolness" is not a good reason to make changes to the game, keeping the game the way it is because it preserves the relevance or coolness of the FC is not a good idea either. If the FC really does struggle to remain relevant, then some sort of real change should be made to make him more relevant, and not just arbitrarily keep a unit exclusive to him to increase his cool factor. I realize there's some argument about whether apo/TM supported assterms might be OP though... carry on with that.

[Dark Riku]

My bad then, I had no idea that the autocannon got a flat damage buff as well. I was under the impression that this thing got a huge damage buff to bolters and a slight damage reduction to the cannon. Is that how it used to be?

It was never like that! That would make 0 sense and the upgrade totally garbage.

So now the khorne pred does more auto cannon damage AND more way more bolter damage?

When the heck did that happen?

AROUND THE START OF THIS MOD.

I don't know how to take you serious.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

if memory serves you were the reason for the change tex.

---

honestly, i'm not really fond of the warpsiders call in. it's pretty easy to spam and warp spiders are very good when spammed. i get why it's there, the WSE has a WS squad deep strike, but it's not very interesting.

the reason the farseer has (had) the seer council is because a seer council consists of 1 or more farseers and their retinue of warlocks. why it's a stand alone squad instead of an upgrade or targeted global for the farseer, idk, warlocks never operate in squads by themselves; they're either part of a seer council or attached to a guardian or wraith squad. the new codex changed the way it works a bit but they're still not independent units. i've always disliked the way it's implemented. it's one of numerous strange choice relic made.

take the hero selections for example. farseer, warlock, and WSE. the warlock is meh at best but the WSE? they never command more than single squads, why the hell is a he hero? especially when he could so easily have been an autarch. you could change his name to autarch and it would fit; he'd be an autarch who spent a lot of time as a warp spider. the eldar hero selection really should have been farseer, autarch, and something else like a bone seer or corsair prince. they're both a lot fluffier and more interesting. if they couldn't think of anything they could have just left it at 2 heroes and no one would have suffered.

the other races aren't much better. IG is ok but space marine has a force commander and then what are effectively two sub commanders. they could have just had a force commander with like 30 wargear choices ranging from melee to heavy weapons, etc, and i think it would have been really interesting and unique. orks are ok since they're just lead by the biggest ork but the mekboy/knob is still a bit odd. tyranids are stupid. ravener alpha and lictor alpha? relic made those up. a hive tyrant with a bunch of options is really the only fluffy hq for nids. could have given him a bunch of different options, like wings, and it would have worked. the CL and CS are fine but the plauge champion? same issue as the WSE. a chaos lord aligned with nurgle would have been better and fluffier and he wouldn't have to be similar to the CL.

anyway, enough rant.

[Asmon]

My bad then, I had no idea that the autocannon got a flat damage buff as well. I was under the impression that this thing got a huge damage buff to bolters and a slight damage reduction to the cannon. Is that how it used to be?

It was never like that! That would make 0 sense and the upgrade totally garbage.

I'd put the blame on Indrid since I'm pretty sure that's what he used to say in his casts, before standing corrected. Sorry bro =)

[Lulgrim]

You'll notice they're called heroes in the actual game, not commanders. And it's never suggested that they would give orders to your army.

[L0thar]

To an extent, I must say, "fair enough". You are right, additions to variety are something that I almost always support.
However, I'm still seeing a blind eye turned to the counter variety that is being proposed semi-sarcastically:
Why can't the FC have access to the ven-dread since he will be short 1 unique global? Wouldn't this promote variety as well?

Variety is nice, but balance must always be used as the measuring cup no? I can go on, but it doesn't matter.

I concede the point of variety, but I'm just asking you to think of balance as well as fairness in a broad scape of matchups, as well as internally between all 3 SM heros.

I'm aware of that...just to reiterate, I play mainly FC, so the "injustice" isn't really lost on me. But I think Apo and TM not having ANY access to assterms whatsoever is a worse problem.

To be perfectly honest, I think vendread should be available in some form to FC and Apo as well. Just like banewolf shouldn't be Inq exclusive.

I quite like how call-in units are implemented in the case of kommandos, warp spiders, leman russes and now in Elite even the seer council. They are more accessible to one commander via call-in, but they are not exclusive, because they can be pursached in HQ, albeit for more resources.

I think assterms and vendread (and banewolf too, but I'm not sure about specifics as I don't play IG that much) should be implemented exactly like that - buildable at HQ in T3, but costing (a lot?) more.

That way the FC isn't really boned, he is still unique because he can summon assterms on the battlefield, to turn a battle (while even building something different in HQ). They are still his signature unit. But now the Apo and TM have more options. Would they stick with relatively cheaper ranged termies? Or would they save up for assterms? Etc...

The same for vendread. Still remains a signature TM unit, but now the FC and Apo have more options.

I think this thread raises an interesting question, that being "what is the rationale behind any of the call-in abilities?" Does the WSE need discount warpspiders? Does the KNob need discount kommandos? LG needs a discount tank? Is the banewolf's ability to pwn your opponent's melee squads and gen farms instantly making up for some sort of deficiency on the Inq's part? What was the reasoning behind the farseer having exclusive access to the seer council?

When Tex asks why we shouldn't give all SM commanders the ven dread, well, why not? Of all three commanders the TM is probably most likely to build and carry a dread from T2 into T3 so the global seems pretty redundant from a strategic point of view. The vdread is locked into melee mode so the apo/FC would be able to fight alongside it, likely with some ASM, too (I know technically the TM can with his axe but IMO it's not a good idea to still be rocking the axe in T3). In terms of "need", the apo and FC probably would make better use of the global.

The answer to the above questions, it seems to me, is simply that Relic thought it was thematically appealing to see a KNob lead kommandos, WSE lead warpspiders, or the techmarine with their well known affinity for vehicles to have an exclusive vehicle. That's why melee terminators being exlusive to the FC always stuck out like a sore thumb to me - what specially affinity do force commanders have for melee terminators? It's especially arbitrary considering the other SM commanders can get terminators, just not ones with hammers/claws for some reason, and double arbitrary now that all chaos commanders can choose between melee or ranged terminators.

This isn't meant as an impassioned plea for melee terminators for all; it's more like... third party navel gazing about call-ins I guess. I would like to point out though that while "coolness" is not a good reason to make changes to the game, keeping the game the way it is because it preserves the relevance or coolness of the FC is not a good idea either. If the FC really does struggle to remain relevant, then some sort of real change should be made to make him more relevant, and not just arbitrarily keep a unit exclusive to him to increase his cool factor. I realize there's some argument about whether apo/TM supported assterms might be OP though... carry on with that.

Good post, I generally agree with the reasoning "why Relic did things as they did...".

[Bahamut]

meh if it wasn't for the charge the normal dread with daot would completely outperform the ven dread

banewolf could be an upgrade to chimera but the banewolf is retarded OP and needs balancing before anything else

again id rather chaos lose the option to get lc termies vut since i know that's not gonna happen then i do wanna see lighting claws as an upgrade to normal termies

[Nurland]

When has KPred done more damage to vehicles than laspred? At least in later Retarbution days it gave the 25% for the autocannon making the autocannon damage same as in elite

Sorry for the off topic.

[Asmon]

Indeed. Laspred has always been better vs vehicles as long as I remember (and used to wipe infantry with its 3 splash radius).

[Sub_Zero]

It still seems weird when a faction with tons of melee units gets a super melee unit while other faction that almost has no melee units can't get the same super melee unit (which initially was exclusive to one of commanders of this faction). Let's make Chaos T3 more viable and to do so let's steal units from other race and won't give them some love in return (is anyone pleased with those new units who are just upgrades to existing units?). I have no idea why this thread hasn't been moved to balance discussion yet.