Dawn of War Codex

Not to mention that's a useless and senseless logic to follow. If we follow that logic then t2/t3 GK should be crap as hell because their t1 is so good

And GK T2 is crap for pretty much that reason...

Well perhaps I am playing devil's advocate on an ork-hate thread. I just haven't seen anything that acknowledges that maybe there IS a reason that sluggas become powerful with their nob leader.

That Torpid Gamer wrote:And GK T2 is crap for pretty much that reason...

QFT.

Bahamut wrote:Not to mention that's a useless and senseless logic to follow. If we follow that logic then t2/t3 GK should be crap as hell because their t1 is so good

That's not useless or senseless. A faction that has a strong early game should either have a weak midgame or weak endgame in proportion to how much of an early advantage they have. Alternately, a weak start with a strong mid to late is a viable option.

That Torpid Gamer wrote:Please. Sluggas are not crap in t1.

This.

That Torpid Gamer wrote:Please. Sluggas are not crap in t1. Go play Mathis and tell me sluggas are crap in t1.

2 of them with their burnas is an absolute joke alongside the trolololol-boy.

Oh Torpid, you know damned well that a single suppression team nullifies that entirely.
Shoot the flanking squad(s) down and suppress the painboy with his slugga pairing.

Unless an ork commits his entire army to pushing you back or w/e, he's not going to win against suppression (or overlapping suppression for that matter) in t1. Especially in Mathis' case because he plays warboss like 95% of the time.

It dawned on Mathis about a month ago that playing the WB is a waste of time since the KN is just so much better in every single way, so now he mainly plays KN. Besides, a havoc squad can't be everywhere and it takes an army to counter painboy+sluggas without suppression (yesterday painboy+sluggas soloed coruscating flame AC tics with flame sword CS support, default tic support, GL tic support (who knocked down the sluggas with barrage and CSM support). If I move my havoc to deal with the painboy then the second slugga just bashes my gens. What's the alternative? Dual havocs? Great, now I have an extra immobile army with no gen bash potential so I'm just going to have to eat that fast DD and then I'll have some stikks and a weirdboy in my face that are going to be impossible to kill quite frankly (alongside those double t2 sluggas and PB).

Even if he's the WB UYC stormboyz are insane vs set-up teams, especially with painboy support. Just for the purpose of reminding folk, the painboy heal will cause a squad of stormboyz to regenerate 60hp a second for 12 seconds. Channelling runes by comparison is 100hp/s. On sluggas the painboy heal is 72hp/s.

Also, what's up with the slugga boyz' burnas doing so much damage? If sluggas use their range attack with their burnas on heretics or hormagaunts on approach they absolutely melt them, making it totally pointless to send such units into melee with sluggas ever, even if you have ranged support (it is only worthwhile with suppression or further melee support). AC tics won't beat properly microed burna sluggas either. Burn on approach, use wagggh, dodge the doomblast, kill the tics. Turns out slugga burnas do 11dps whereas a tac flamer does 8.75. In reality though slugga burnas are better than that because they have a higher damage combined (20, compared to the 14 of the tac flamer) than the tac flamer, just a loner reload time. Reload times aren't influential in watching sluggas burn oncoming melee to bits. I would like burnas to receive a damage nerf. If this makes them too ineffective vs generators then changing their damage type to make them less effective vs LI and more effective vs gens would be great.

I'm also ignoring the fact that 2 sluggas with hide da boyz or UYC support is tough to deal with. You need 2 shotguns or 2 AC tics or a BSWB to be able to sustain map control, but all this is just letting the ork get out his magical deff dread that wins the game instantly.

You make decent arguments Torpid, but I just want to say that after reading your post, I can't help but feel that those observations are highly subjective.

I get into the same groove sometimes too.

Did you recently have a good practice session with Mathis?

Yeah, it hurt, but fighting or playing as orks always does.

Tex wrote:You make decent arguments Torpid, but I just want to say that after reading your post, I can't help but feel that those observations are highly subjective.

The numbers are facts. It is a fact that burnas have 11 dps flame and that's more dps than tac flamer, same with painboy heal. There's nothing subjective about numbers unless you wanna ignore them and then it's plain bias

Saying it's easy or hard to counter havocs with sluggas is as subjective as saying havocs completely shut down sluggas. Both are true or false depending on external factors like map, positioning, actual randomness, player skill, abilities, etc.

Calling someone's arguments subjective while countering with the same level of subjective-ness is well... retarded to say the least

Read his post again.

Can you not catch what I was talking about in the tone of his wording? I have had lots of times where I had to track back and rethink something I felt strongly about simply because I was getting beat by it for a while.

I didn't touch on the numbers because they are correct and quite frankly, not worth touching on. But I suppose since now you are calling me retarded, perhaps I should remind you of some PROBABLE reasons why tac flamer DPS is lower than sluggas flamer DPS okay?
1) Ork anti-garrison problems stemming back all the way into vanilla dow2.
2) Tacs don't bleed and can sustain damage for much longer periods of time in order to do their damage.
3) SM have scout grenades and scout snipers available in tier 1 to aid in anti-garrison duties if a flamer is not desirable.

Your second paragraph is absolute rubbish. I mean sure, lets have a big philosophical tea party and consider a bunch of factors that tbh don't mean shit for your own example.
Havoks are the ultimate setup team in terms of suppression. Any person acquainted with aiming a havok, and the general whereabouts of their enemy is going to counter what torpid mentioned with a single havok and some assist from nearby periphery forces.
Further, forcing an ork to get stormboyz against you as chaos in tier 1 is a really good thing. This is actually one of the best things you can hope for as it brings an isolated unit strait into the waiting arms of your murderous heretics.

Oh and one last note, I said he makes decent arguments, and I also said that HIS OBSERVATIONS FEEL HIGHLY SUBJECTIVE. I did not say that his argument was subjective per se.

And then I guess there is the other part, where Torpid has admitted as much.

Why trying to turn this into a SM talk? Nobody said (not me or torpid) that tac flamer should be the king of flamers and/or that burnas are OP just because they're better than tac flamers

I re-read Torpid's post carefully, i still stand by my post.

You think havoc "nullifies entirely" PB+sluggas to counter Torpid's argument

In his first paragraph he explains in detail why he thinks that's not true

Both subjective, your observation of havoc always nullifying entirely a PB+slugga build is as subjective as his. So big woop

In the second paragraph he adds that stormboys with UYC are a death sentence to setup squad. Well, i dont know. Is getting stormboys vs chaos good for chaos? you know better than i do about that specific MU, but who cares? it's unimportant to this discussion anyway

In the third paragraph he compares burnas dps with tac flamer dps, and then considers them OP because they can do too much damage to approaching tics or hormas.

I'll just give a fun fact here, a slugga in range stance can beat a GM or a terma squad in range without getting into melee

Then he concludes that over expending on stuff to counter a double slugga build will result in a DD rush. Makes sense, doesnt it? you notice your opponent is expending too much power/req into things that only counter infantry then you know he'll be exposed to a vehicle rush, it's only natural

Dunno, maybe i'm over reacting. But calling out "subjectiveness" is plain stupid, everybody's perception and experiences are by definition subjective, only processed data and statistics are objective, and even then there's subjective ways to look at them. "What you think is wrong because i think otherwise"

With the upcoming change to Warp Vomit, T2 sluggas will no longer be able to do their high spike damage vs the stunned units, which I would say is in indirect nerf to their performance.

I really feel the slugga nob could use a slight hp nerf at best because slugga boyz really scale poorly into late T2 and beyond; they can do fuck-all against walkers, and what with walkers gaining melee resist now all you need against slugga boyz (or spam of them) is a SM Dread, Hugbot, Shuriken Wraithlord.. Hell, even a Deff Dread would counter them in an Ork matchup. I feel only IG are really fucked by Sluggaz but then IG are really their own thing..

The real Ork Nasty are the Painboy and Weirdboy. Fuck..

Firstly this conversation has gotten philosophical so I'm already excited

Tex wrote:Read his post again.

Can you not catch what I was talking about in the tone of his wording? I have had lots of times where I had to track back and rethink something I felt strongly about simply because I was getting beat by it for a while.

I didn't touch on the numbers because they are correct and quite frankly, not worth touching on. But I suppose since now you are calling me retarded, perhaps I should remind you of some PROBABLE reasons why tac flamer DPS is lower than sluggas flamer DPS okay?
1) Ork anti-garrison problems stemming back all the way into vanilla dow2.
2) Tacs don't bleed and can sustain damage for much longer periods of time in order to do their damage.
3) SM have scout grenades and scout snipers available in tier 1 to aid in anti-garrison duties if a flamer is not desirable.

This is meaningless. My point was not that tac flamers ought to be higher dps than sluggas. This was meant to be a point of reference. People see tacs burning stuff more than sluggas I imagine so comparing the dps should be of use. There are many ways to nerf sluggas's flamer's abilities vs incoming melee (which is one of my largest contentions, as well as their damage vs LI that are kiting them) without reducing their anti-garrison/generator capabilities or making the upgrade less desirable overall. Honestly burnas are overpowered now for 15 power anyway, so I think a straight up modification of their damage type (which can be done as seen in sternguards) to make them ~30% weaker against LI while not hindering their damage vs everything else would be nice.

Tex wrote:Your second paragraph is absolute rubbish. I mean sure, lets have a big philosophical tea party and consider a bunch of factors that tbh don't mean shit for your own example.
Havoks are the ultimate setup team in terms of suppression. Any person acquainted with aiming a havok, and the general whereabouts of their enemy is going to counter what torpid mentioned with a single havok and some assist from nearby periphery forces.
Further, forcing an ork to get stormboyz against you as chaos in tier 1 is a really good thing. This is actually one of the best things you can hope for as it brings an isolated unit strait into the waiting arms of your murderous heretics.

Tex, you know things aren't so simple in 1v1. Like I said your havoc can't be everywhere. Nor can your heretics. Are you keeping your heretics and your havocs together at all times fearing the prospect of stormboyz? If so then are you keeping both sat back near you generator farm in case a flanking slugga boy comes and burns them (which is even more possible vs the KN dueto HDB)? Then you are conceding map control and I know from experience this will hurt you vs an ork who can easily pull a deff dread out from nowhere and win a game instantly. Havoc and tic play is not particularly useless for gen bashing yet the ork forces you to go for this with his dual slugga build. Given the defensive and detection capabilities of an upgraded shoota squad alongside a KN this means gen bashing your foe is pretty much impossible, or at least not worth it despite you having the superior t1 military.

If you try to fast tech against the 2x slugga then good luck to you because it's only going to be even stronger in t2. Furthermore as I said before the painboy+slugga combo requires an army to counter, so how are you going to counter that? It's so easy for the ork to get that gen bash off even when he's doesn't exploit burn dat house... I don't recall rushing t2 ever being effective vs orks except when playing as IG/eldar because you can get the

[Allow me to take a brief tangent here and respond to your previous comment; my woes with orks are not a passing fancy, it's something I've experienced for years and when I play orks I feel incredibly overpowered and if you don't think orks are overpowered you can have a hand at more of my mek for sure, but both you and I know that the mek is incredibly powerful compared to many other heroes in this game, especially in 1v1...]

Tex wrote:Oh and one last note, I said he makes decent arguments, and I also said that HIS OBSERVATIONS FEEL HIGHLY SUBJECTIVE. I did not say that his argument was subjective per se.

And then I guess there is the other part, where Torpid has admitted as much.

The statement "I feel your observations are highly subjective" is utterly meaningless. All observations are subjective. What we perceive in our minds is not merely an exact copy of the stimuli that we interact with and that already exists within the world. Many people can observe, or otherwise sense, the same stimuli but then perceive hugely different things as being true/real/correct or whatever, based on their mentality. Observation cannot be objective so what is your point?

I think you're just trying to euphemise the idea of my concerns about ork balance as being merely a manifestation of a passing failure in my play. If such is true then I'de like to infer that which is in the brackets above once again.

Tex wrote:And then I guess there is the other part, where Torpid has admitted as much.

I don't see this anywhere ^^ +1 to Torpid's and Bahamut's last posts.

appiah4 wrote:they can do fuck-all against walkers, and what with walkers gaining melee resist now all you need against slugga boyz (or spam of them) is a SM Dread, Hugbot, Shuriken Wraithlord.. Hell, even a Deff Dread would counter them in an Ork matchup.

It's a good thing they do fuck all against a walker! You'd want them to be able to deal with walkers or something? You only needed a melee walker in the past
(and still now) vs sluggas. It's kinda what walkers do

That Torpid Gamer wrote:Sluggas with burnas can defeat AC heretics. All you have to do is shoot the heretics with your burnas in ranged stance before you engage, then hit Q then melee. If you run in and pull out quickly you also have a big fat chance of dodging most of the doomblast's damage, but you don't even need to do that.

Please stop spreading a heresy... T1 sluggas will never win with T1 ticks

That Torpid Gamer wrote:
I'm also ignoring the fact that 2 sluggas with hide da boyz or UYC support is tough to deal with. You need 2 shotguns or 2 AC tics or a BSWB to be able to sustain map control, but all this is just letting the ork get out his magical deff dread that wins the game instantly.

Dont bring hero globals to balance 1 unit, it's stupid way of thinking. For me sluggas are fine on the way they are. They dont need more love or hate.

- sluggas are exp unit ( reinforce 27 req ? )
- every fight you gonna probably losse 2-3 models
- nob leader got his upkeep and is not for free
- now sluggas cant break suppresion so for me they are fine
- maybe i would slightly change their dps but rly sligthly.

Rataxas wrote:Please stop spreading a heresy... T1 sluggas will never win with T1 ticks

The irony...

Can You explain me, why do You guys always talk endlessly about something before testing it first?

Sluggas with burnas can defeat AC heretics

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ib3KTmuwpSs

This video shows only two (fair) fights, but we did at least 10 attempts. The outcome of every single one was the same. Sluggas won't win, unless they are buffed with Warboss' globals or perform ridiculous amount of special attacks (not likely to happen).

But I have to admit, that part with dodging a doomblast made me giggle. Perhaps we will learn how to dodge snipers in near future too.

OT- Nob is fine.

It's hilarious how the slugga boy says "not expecting that were 'ya"

The thing is the fight can go either way. It's not conclusive without further testing as in that fight the AC got a very good special that hit 4 models early on into the fight as well as another weak special later. I would expect some specials but not one hitting 4 models a couple of seconds into the fight. Furthermore the doomblast hit at the very least 5/6 sluggas, that's quite a big deal.

Default sluggaz beat default heretics most of the time with the help of a Waaagh! But it's really close (they tend to have 2 models max but most times it's only one, however there are exceptions). I would say too close for comfort to even want to consider attracting that kind of fight.

That video applies to the vast majority of fights between the two units in question. Slugga burnas are too unreliable in how they shoot. If you leave them on ranged stance not all models instantly start attacking when they get into melee. You can see this when sluggaz are trying to burn gens. It's not a guaranteed DPS, many times you have to reposition them and redo the attack order. The doomblast also suppresses, if you've fought enough banshee's you can see that supressed sluggaz (or supressed anything for that matter) have a hard time actually getting into the fight since they move as fast as turtles. When that happens they tend to be on the losing end but again there are exceptions to this (as rare as they can be).

At level 1 slugga nob deals 65 power melee DPS and has 420/475 health.
At level 2 slugga nob deals 71.5 power melee DPS and has 483/543 health.
At level 3 slugga nob deals 78 power melee DPS and has 555/654 health.
At level 4 slugga nob deals 86 power melee DPS and has 638/718 health.

Who rightfully thinks that it is balanced? Who in his healthy state of mind thinks so? Please, sign up here! I won't be talking to you ever. These stats are outrageous! No other T1-T2 squad leader is so good. Who will deny it? Adding a new unit whose purpose is to improve slugga boyz and bumping up slugga boyz at the same time...

CAELTOS, will you shed some light here why it is balanced in your opinion?

At level 1 slugga nob deals 65 power melee DPS and has 420/475 health.
At level 2 slugga nob deals 71.5 power melee DPS and has 483/543 health.
At level 3 slugga nob deals 78 power melee DPS and has 555/654 health.
At level 4 slugga nob deals 86 power melee DPS and has 638/718 health.

Lol, imagine if ASM sarge had those stats

Bahamut wrote:Lol, imagine if ASM sarge had those stats

Imagine if ASM had slugga stats :/

Depends. Sluggas with the asm abilities would be fun for the SM player... 6 25dps models jumping with KB on land, no leap and sluggas special attack

Anyway, since most people wanna hate on SM. Imagine if Khorne marines AC had slugga nob stats, or banshee exarch or even tic AC

Sub_Zero wrote:Who rightfully thinks that it is balanced? Who in his healthy state of mind thinks so

I actually think that sluggas are in a decent position right now, but I may not be in a healthy state of mind.

Radio the Forest wrote:I may not be in a healthy state of mind.

Aren't we all

healthy states of mind seem boring to me

Bahamut wrote:Anyway, since most people wanna hate on SM. Imagine if Khorne marines AC had slugga nob stats, or banshee exarch or even tic AC

Now imagine if sluggas had a knockback jump and heavy armor and an immortal squad leader that you could purchase in T1 and could go speed 7+ and could doomblast! Let your imaginations run wild!

Took dem words right out my mouff!