Dawn of War Codex

When khorne marines fight slugga boyz it is always painful to watch. With each chainsaw sound khorne marines lose a fair chunk of health and the faggot who does it just don't want to die ever. And what pisses off even more is that slugga boyz are cheap. Even if you win (which is not common at all) you lose economically. When khorne marines fight banshees it is more fair. Banshees are expensive, their exarch is as hard hitting as a slugga boyz' leader but she does die actually. And even if you can't beat banshees you still have a chance to assasinate their expensive exarch or kill some models to equalize your loss economically a bit.

Honestly I think that khorne marines should win against both of these squads. Why? Because slugga boyz are way cheaper and that is balanced that they lose to a more expensive squad who fulfills the same role. Banshees have the ability to avoid any melee fights. Suppress stupid berserkers and throw a grenade using guardians. Suppress stupid berserkers, knock them back using your rangers and then slaughter them. I have no idea why someone uses banshees to actually fight in melee when there are guardians/rangers/other unit who can just damage the suppressed target around. So if it is an isolated fight then girls avoid it and wait for a better opportunity. I think Eldar are about it. Fleeting like cowards from fights that are not desirable for them and using all their "cheap" abilities making hardly counterable combinations to slaughter enemies. And Eldar as a faction always force you to attack them. Superior ranged squads who can fire safely hiding behind shields, the best setup team, snipers, annoying artillery. It is less likely to see that banshees are counter initiated by khorne marines. So I don't see a problem here that banshees lose to khorne marines.

Or we can just abandon the idea of buffing them/making them more versatile and interesting and just reduce their cost drastically. Because the unit's performance does not reflect its cost at all.

all i'm reading is that sluggas are too good for their price. What has this to do with Khorne marines? even banshees lose to t2 sluggas. Aren't khorne marines only comparable to purifiers?. Why don't the AC gets a heavy melee weapon and that's it

Chaos has 2 jump squads and too many melee specialists, that's a problem with the chaos roster. I completely agree with Tex and other when they say there's never a reason to get them over heretics or letters, raptors and even worse t3 terminators, but i've seen khorne marines easily force off banshees, vanguard vets and even genestealers. And where they lose to sluggas, they can easily make nobs be afraid of overstaying their welcome. I still don't get the point of making khorne marines be on par of terminators just because there's too many melee units in the chaos roster

And just wait until we get the new PM's. More melee, hooray!

Khorne marines can be compared with any dedicated melee squad. And why not? The closest comparison is purifiers probably. Because both units wear heavy armor (and suck in melee cause of that) and consist of 4 models. However purifiers (being more expensive of course) have a leader who grants an ability and a heavy melee weapon. A khorne marines' leader is bad and boring.

Khorne marines being an expensive dedicated melee squad are supposed to fight in melee with other melee units and overcome them. They are not good at countering ranged squads (raptors are). They are not good at stopping melee units (heretics are). And they are not bloodletters (who are an elite versatile T2 melee squad). Lightning claws terminators should not exist for Chaos in my opinion but if they do then we have to consider them as an elite T3 melee squad and they don't overlap with any other melee oriented Chaos unit purely because they are accesible only T3 and for a high cost, kind of like a super-unit. Khorne marines should be good at fighting toe-to-toe. That is how I see them. Yet they are not so good at this role.

Sub_Zero wrote:Khorne marines being an expensive dedicated melee squad are supposed to fight in melee with other melee units and overcome them

EVERY melee squad is supposed to do that. but just because it's chaos has to be better? you said it yourself, purifiers are more expensive, why shouldn't they be better than khorne marines?

Right now, khorne marines lose to the squads they should lose to, and beat the squads they should beat. So again, why do this dudes underperform?

I simply disagree that that is their role then. Their dps is extremely respectable: 30.77 dps power melee per model, for reference shees do 26.92. They have speed 6, and around the same squad hp as asms. With 70 melee skill and a likelihood of leveling considering its a t1 upgraded unit, they're extremely decent at what they do. So given all their apparently superior stats, why do they get buttraped by dedicated melee?

Simply put, the higher unit count means everything. Squad count is really important when calculating special attacks, and having an inferior squad count with equal melee skill is a significant disadvantage because the shees for eg have more opportunities to proc in the same timeframe. Being on your back then snowballs the matchup against you. Further there's obviously more squad dps coming out.

So let's imagine a case where kcsm were buffed to be able to cope with storms and sluggas and shees. Considering a kcsm with leader now, anti hi squad dps right now is 30.77*4*1.3, no eternal war. Giving approximately 160 dps against asm, effectively eviscerating asm with serg in 10 secs. No eternal war. So how much of a dps buff would you need to overcome shees? 25 percent? 40...? More? Considering the squad count and hence the special attack disadvantage you would have to overcome?

The point being, if you made kcsm own melee with 4/4, be prepared to see 4/4 asm get eviscerated from 100 to 0 in 6ish seconds. Given eternal war. Not to mention how absolutely screwed tacs or tcsm would be to be caught by this kind of speed 6 power melee dps

The change to kcsm you want sub zero would require some serious redesign, where they would perform admirably against true melee but totally destroy heavy infantry by nature of the inherent weakness of having a 4/4 melee squad.

Sub_Zero wrote:

The problem with KCSM is less with the unit itself

So it is ok for you that the majority of melee units beat them toe-to-toe with no problems and cost less at the same time and some of them even provide more options. And now seeing that you recommend no changes let me ask you. I haven't encountered you in a real game, I do watch your casts. And whenever I see you in your own casts you always use tzeentch marines and never use khorne marines (I can't remember for sure but what I am sure of is that you use tzeentch marines in 9 cases out of 10), how much times have tried them actually to give any recommendations? I don't want to sound mean but there you have it.

Believe me, there are meaner things I could say to you about my qualifications versus yours in regards to KCSM or the mechanics of this game in general. I have used them more than most, and I have a better understanding of both why they are underused, as well was what their uses actually are.

I recommend no changes because that's not going to fix the issue of KCSM's being underused for the reasons that they are. Instead, KCSM would remain underused in the many situations when they are already a bad choice, and they would become monstrous in the few situations when they are already a good choice. The biggest problem with KCSM is that you need to sacrifice your best ranged unit in an army that's already lacking ranged units. By far the most important thing that would need to be done in order to make KCSM viable is to give Chaos some kind of alternative ranged unit in tier 1 or tier 2, which means either introducing a new upgrade or a new unit to their roster.

Maestro Cretella wrote:I recommend no changes because that's not going to fix the issue of KCSM's being underused for the reasons that they are. Instead, KCSM would remain underused in the many situations when they are already a bad choice, and they would become monstrous in the few situations when they are already a good choice. The biggest problem with KCSM is that you need to sacrifice your best ranged unit in an army that's already lacking ranged units. By far the most important thing that would need to be done in order to make KCSM viable is to give Chaos some kind of alternative ranged unit in tier 1 or tier 2, which means either introducing a new upgrade or a new unit to their roster.

Taken straight from my thoughts. Except...

When are KCSM actually ever a better choice? I see this once in maybe a hundred times, and that's no exaggeration.

Rather than buffing their defenses or immunities, why not consider giving them splash damage? From what I've seen, they only really struggle against higher model squads (Sluggas, Shees) so converting about 20% to 30% of their DPS to area of effect would help enormously, I imagine.

If that's not an option, I'm a fan of the "health restoration on hit" concept. It would give them much more staying power than Raptors or Bloodletters while still granting those units an advantage (namely, mobility).

KCSM are a better choice vs IG since lasguns rape bloodletters and raptors don't have the necessary ranged dps or melee dps.

KCSM can also do pretty well vs everything in the "overwhelm with melee situation".

The only other time I use them is when I have 2 CSM and I make one TCSM (usually alongside an autocannon) so I have enough FF and then I can make my other CSM into KCSM so I have some strong CI, while then being able to go for a dreadnought for more ranged dps and a good vehicle purchase deterrent.

Kithrixx while the sentiment is nice splash power melee* 4 models? That's like retail FC thunderhammer * 4 ie filthy filthy rape against HI if they're good against melee infantry blobs. There's a reason why splash is a lesser seen mechanic

Codex wrote:Kithrixx while the sentiment is nice splash power melee* 4 models? That's like retail FC thunderhammer * 4 ie filthy filthy rape against HI if they're good against melee infantry blobs. There's a reason why splash is a lesser seen mechanic

What if the splash damage was a different damage type that was less effective against Heavy Infantry? I mean... I don't know off of the top of my head what would be good for that, but. The concept I was pushing for was keeping DPS vs HI largely the same but improving it against higher model counts.

Dark Riku wrote:

Tex wrote:So in closing, I think this ability is the best fit for KCSM because it expands on what they currently do, distinguishes their role outside of being blurry, and doesn't change the way that KCSM are countered.

All your examples show how knockback counters them and yet you say their counters won't change? :/ Doesn't add up now does it?

GJ ignoring their main counter... suppression.

Its okay though buddy, try again next time. Have a great day!

kb immunity would make them boss as counter initiate for asm, basically nullify asm come to think of it. Hey counter my havoc OLOLOL goodbye squad

Bahamut, my idea is to buff them so they become the best T1 melee unit (if their cost remains the same). They deserve that simply because they are the most expensive ones. Or it is not the way the game works? What was Caeltos's point to make them even more expensive knowing that they will be still inferior to some less expensive melee squads and at the same time not considering giving them any ability? You mentioned purifiers and said that they had to beat khorne marines. Well, they already do that, don't they? And at last what parameter did you use to define what unit should beat them and what unit should be beaten? Why cheaper squads beat them?

Codex, their major disadvantage is their armor type. And their low model count I would consider as an advantage. But I have to admit that the more models the higher chances to perform a special attack. I thought about assault marines' performance. They might get a buff as well. For example change their merciless strike's damage type from piercing to power melee. And I really don't want to make khorne marines more killy (straight dps increase). What I have suggested here was to give them an ability that would help them to chase retreating units and make their leader a bit better to justify his cost. Khorne marines don't become as good as other units when they have a leader up. And absolutely all melee oriented units rely heavily on leaders.

and I have a better understanding of both why they are underused

Do you seriously believe that such a message would prompt somebody to listen to you with more respect? That only shows how arrogant you are.

Sub_Zero wrote:

and I have a better understanding of both why they are underused

Do you seriously believe that such a message would prompt somebody to listen to you with more respect? That only shows how arrogant you are.

Maybe it would serve you well then to not accuse people's credentials in an ad hominem attack in previous posts then? They're telling you how it is because you specifically prompted them to.


Low model type, speed 6 and very high ranged dps makes them much stronger than against most ranged squads than other melee units. They're just more efficient as they don't bleed. The trade-off is that they can't straight-up compete with other melee squads due to a lack of specials. When the KCSM do have increased melee skill they perform admirably against other melee. Bearing in mind that throughout t1 they haven't really been bleeding either and probably have more experience than most other squads. Furthermore they have the added benefit of coming from non-mark CSM, a squad that may specialise into a super shooty or super choppy squad. When you buy sluggas or banshees in t1 you don't have that novelty; you're stuck with a melee unit. Don't forget the way worship affects KCSM too. Speed 8 KCSM are always fun to fight (people thought banshees are god retreat killers LOL) and also note how how good chaos is at ranged. Between havocs (with their autocannon, or instant suppression), TCSM and the chaos dreadnought there's many reasons you'de want to get in close and nasty with a T2 chaos army. If KCSM were like banshees...

Tex wrote:GJ ignoring their main counter... suppression.

Its okay though buddy, try again next time. Have a great day!

You're completely missing the point here Tex. It would counter all knockback counters. Like shotgunblast, merciless strike, battlecry, purification rites. All things meant to stop melee. Yes, all SM examples. Orks: More Dakka, painboy explosion, wb stomp, etc. You get the idea. You even mentioned some in your post. Suppression is definitely not the only or main counter to melee units.

This change would be a serious, unwarranted buff.


It's okay though buddy. Try again next time? Have a great day!

Dark Riku wrote:

Tex wrote:GJ ignoring their main counter... suppression.

Its okay though buddy, try again next time. Have a great day!

You're completely missing the point here Tex. It would counter all knockback counters. Like shotgunblast, merciless strike, battlecry, purification rites. All things meant to stop melee. Yes, all SM examples. Orks: More Dakka, painboy explosion, wb stomp, etc. You get the idea. You even mentioned some in your post. Suppression is definitely not the only or main counter to melee units.

This change would be a serious, unwarranted buff.


It's okay though buddy. Try again next time? Have a great day!

Shotgun blast suppresses as well. And a 6 second window is a pretty short time... just saying. You do know how to kite with speed 1000 scouts right?

Also, if suppression isn't the main counter to KCSM, are you saying that knockback is? I mean doesn't it seem pretty damned obvious that it's barely even viable to build KCSM if a suppression team is on the field? Let alone 2?

Clearly you are missing the point.

I don't want KCSM to go rape mode and not have counters. The ability would actually change nothing in regards to their inability to approach ranged blobs/suppression/etc.
What "dark rage/khorne's gift/w.e" would do would be to actually allow KCSM to excel at what they do, carving out a clear niche for them. It doesn't increase their hp, damage, or move speed. It would simply give them a brief window to actually deal damage to the stuff they are supposed to counter.

What Tex said.

Just throwing some stuff against the wall to see if it sticks........

What if khorne marines had a "momentum" effect similar to nobz with huge hammers.

"Each swing with these weapons only heightens their killing frenzy, increasing damage by 8% for 12 seconds."

That's the current nobz effect with hammers. For MoK, it would have to be lessened (say like 4 percent damage for 7 seconds).

Basically means that the longer they are in the fight, the more deadly they become.

So let me get this straight. According to you their major disadvantage is their armor type. And your main gripe with kcsm is their performance against melee. So you would think that if kcsm had infantry armor they would suddenly do well against banshees, or even passably?

I'm not at home right now, and won't be for a week or so, but you should try labbing equal level fully upgraded kcsm vs shees and count how many specials proc for both units and estimate how much dps is being missed out, bearing in mind that one shee special is capable of knocking down 2 or 3/4 members in one swing whereas a kcsm would be lucky to knock down 3/6.

Then come back and insist that their main weakness to dedicated melee is in fact their heavy armor trait.

In the end power melee melee squads are actually quite rare. And HI confers neither advantage nor disadvantage against heavy melee.

Forest I would be terrified by the synergy with bloodlust.

What about an ability similar to ATSKNF & Frenzy?

Charges as they deal damage and once charged, they get a speed boost and suppression immunity for ~5 seconds etc?

An ability that allows them to get in fights quicker or an ability like Radio's which boost their combat efficiency?

Radio the Forest wrote:Just throwing some stuff against the wall to see if it sticks........

What if khorne marines had a "momentum" effect similar to nobz with huge hammers.

"Each swing with these weapons only heightens their killing frenzy, increasing damage by 8% for 12 seconds."

That's the current nobz effect with hammers. For MoK, it would have to be lessened (say like 4 percent damage for 7 seconds).

Basically means that the longer they are in the fight, the more deadly they become.

This is the only viable buff that could be ever made to them, anything else that helps them countering their counters would be OP, chaos has already enough melee with their own perks, and Kcsms, like I already said are better than TCSM if not only for the fact that chaos needs ranged units rather than more melee.

But with bloodlust 0.0...

actually the nobz hammer buff comparison could work, either that or increased attack speed with each strike instead of damage, and for everyone comparing that with bloodlust you'll have to remember, bloodlust is only available on the CL, and has quite a red cost associated with it. That's like saying nobz shouldn't be able to have their uge hammerz because of UYC, i'm in favor of at least testing it out and seeing how it would play out.

Tex wrote:Shotgun blast suppresses as well. And a 6 second window is a pretty short time... just saying. You do know how to kite with speed 1000 scouts right?

Scouts have speed 6.5 and can't kite anymore when the enemy is in charge range. Especially against speed 6 enemies. The suppression from the shotgunblast won't help you much when the enemy is in melee already, while the knockback does.

Tex wrote:Also, if suppression isn't the main counter to KCSM, are you saying that knockback is? I mean doesn't it seem pretty damned obvious that it's barely even viable to build KCSM if a suppression team is on the field? Let alone 2?

Suppression and knockback can both be counters Tex...

KCSM can very well be viable when there is an enemy suppression team on the field depending on map and both army compositions. You can flank, combo with another unit, use sigil, etc. Just because there is a suppression team doesn't mean everything but jump units and the likes are automatically countered.

Tex wrote:I don't want KCSM to go rape mode and not have counters. The ability would actually change nothing in regards to their inability to approach ranged blobs/suppression/etc.

Since when does one unit have to be able to do everything on its own?
Look at retail sluggas. Their swamp em got nerfed for a reason.
And that reason is that come T2 it countered one of their counters, namely suppression. You suddenly could only use knockback to try and keep them at bay.

Tex wrote:What "dark rage/khorne's gift/w.e" would do would be to actually allow KCSM to excel at what they do, carving out a clear niche for them. It doesn't increase their hp, damage, or move speed. It would simply give them a brief window to actually deal damage to the stuff they are supposed to counter.

Since when are KCSM supposed to counter dedicated melee units by denying their specials or be able to counter disruption? Countering their counters? :/

Seriously, without any change, and if we have in mind the changes of the new patch, KCSM are going to be simply worthless.

In fact, which is suppose to be their role? Because for massive damage dealers we already have Bloodletters, which with Heretics worshipp + the use of their abilities are very tanky and they are going to cost only 12 pop; and to counter ranged squad Raptors are the asnwer, and thanks to the new Melta Pistol + Powerfist could do the soft AV role that KCSM are doing.

That Torpid Gamer wrote:KCSM are a better choice vs IG since lasguns rape bloodletters and raptors don't have the necessary ranged dps or melee dps.

KCSM can also do pretty well vs everything in the "overwhelm with melee situation".

The only other time I use them is when I have 2 CSM and I make one TCSM (usually alongside an autocannon) so I have enough FF and then I can make my other CSM into KCSM so I have some strong CI, while then being able to go for a dreadnought for more ranged dps and a good vehicle purchase deterrent.

that's exactly how I use them. I have to buy a back up ranged squad or it never works out. HWT or get a dread or even a noise marine

Nikhel, blood letters get owned by mana drain (and hence the gk theme of mana drain.) Also kcsm is an upgrade rather than a whole new units, allowing for levels and a place no matter what. Further, tic support can be in melee rather than worshipping all the time. You just choose to see bloodletters as crowding kcsm's role.

In t2 I prefer to get a dread. Going bloodletters does crowd that out or at least slows down the dread a lot. Going kcsm doesn't slow the dread much and allows for a nice transition, because it's an upgrade, not an entirely new unit.

Codex wrote:Nikhel, blood letters get owned by mana drain (and hence the gk theme of mana drain.)

I never have any problems countering MoK as GK. Never. All of my t2 options put them under considerable pressure (purifiers win all melee faults with mind blades, dread is a dread, VA kills a model almost every shot, and libby's buffed smite is pure pain).

Bloodletters on the other hand require a lot more to counter, usually the Nemesis Daemon Hammer on top of canticle or several other sources of energy burn (purified blades, energy burst, pyskout grenades).