Dawn of War Codex

Oh lord, the amount of times i've seen a sorc player predict the position of the unit it wants to subjugate, place a shield in heavy cover so as to be perfectly in range for the subjugation, in cover and under the shield, cloaked and actually manage to subjugate is...wait for it...zero.

Why? Because daemon armor is a very situational wargear, because the range is pretty short and you don't have the luxury to decide where you want the sorcerer in the middle of an engagement, because green cover is nonexistent and mostly irrelevant by the time you reach tier 3, because it is extremely rare for someone to not have detection by the time you reach late game unless you're eldar, allow me to be blunt when I say people in this thread who claim this is viable have never played a sorcerer for more than 10 minutes, or did play it in team games.

Not saying the ability shouldn't be discussed, but claiming that you can't kill the sorcerer because of the above reasons is just plain false.

True CS players will first sigil away the targeted unit, then subjugate it, leaving the CS out of reach =)

I hope you're being sarcastic since sigil and tome of subjugation are both accessories.

dance commander wrote:I hope you're being sarcastic since sigil and tome of subjugation are both accessories.

I will let you meditate about it.

Asmon wrote:

dance commander wrote:I hope you're being sarcastic since sigil and tome of subjugation are both accessories.

I will let you meditate about it.

Too busy playing with pokeymans.

Nuclear Arbitor wrote:you can make it effectively unflankable by putting it in a narrow location or corner and using your army to cover the flank and support the turret if it gets attacked. a turret is a "no fighting here until t2" unit, which a setup team is not.

And then he is locked in one place. Go cap the map and the 2 vps he isn't covering...
When he comes to get you you should be at an advantage since he doesn't have the support of his turret while you have those extra resources in your army.



Are you guys kidding about the sorc subjugate?
How do you guys use it? With your sorc alone in front of your army??

JUST get a libby with an upgrade you say to counter the subjugate?
You are telling me I have to spend so much to counter a sorc upgrade?
That on its own already counters the very expensive terminators (or other squads)
Not to mention keep the libby in the back just to teleport out the poor terminators?
And what about chaos terms? Unless you are sorc, you have no way to save them.

And yes the sorc chains stop terms from teleporting ~~

Also "T3 ultimate ability" lulwhut?:p

I don't generally have the patience to write much. Prefer talking.

As much as I've enjoyed the Curse of Tzeentch, it is overpowered against Imperial Guard, and probably Orks and Tyranids as well. There are compelling reasons to change it. IG players are pretty much screwed against it without a Chimera, and Sorc players can fairly easily exploit that by bringing heavy AV against the Chimera alongside a Curse of Tzeentch cast. The original intent of the wargear was probably just meant as a disruption bomb when a model goes off, and it functions quite well in this respect against certain units and races. Probably less intended was the phenomenon of setting off a chain reaction explosion on retreating units, which is even more devastating because of the fact that they won't get disrupted - meaning the whole squad receives the full brunt of the AOE damage of each model exploding. You're pretty much screwed no matter what, and the best way to change that without compromising the wargear entirely, would probably be to just make it so that it does not work on retreat. This has a few issues of its own, but it's the best answer I can think of.

There are no compelling reasons to change Subjugate, and not a single person here has offered anything better than "It annoys me and I don't like it."

Wiping a unit represents the best case scenario of a subjugate usage, but it does not represent what always, or even typically, happens with subjugate. Subjugate can cause extensive model bleed, it can win an engagement (sometimes without model bleed), it can result in a dead Sorcerer, or it can even have a relatively limited effect on an engagement. In that last case, there are times when you subjugate approaching Nobz, and the other player simply responds by backpedaling with their other units, waiting for the subjugate to wear off, and then approaching with their Nobz again.

Accept that the Sorcerer is one of the best counters to expensive, elite infantry in the game, be wary about making that purchase, and stop whining about willingly buying something that your opponent has very hard counters too, much in the way you shouldn't be surprised about losing a vehicle if your opponent has an abundance of hard vehicle counters. Going off of that, accept the fact that while the Sorcerer is one of the best elite infantry counters, he himself has virtually no ability to counter vehicles, so start buying Predators and Land Raiders instead of Terminators.

The primary reason Terminators are so vulnerable to subjugate isn't that their abilities can be used. It's that they can't retreat, and subjugation takes advantage of that. Not being able to retreat is a questionable design feature in a game that otherwise relies on it so heavily, and if Terminators could retreat, the only way to reliably wipe infantry with Subjugate would be by combining it with Empyreal Abyss. That's 500 red, usually only 1 shot per game, for a nuke that is otherwise underperforming at the moment. Outside of terminators, using subjugate to use abilities or put units out of position isn't even remotely overpowered.

The effect of Subjugation also isn't really a deciding factor in matchup balance. The Sorcerer coincidentally either struggles or roughly goes even in many matchups where subjugate is most useful, while the ability is much less useful in many of his advantageous matchups.

Curse of Tzeench is extremly powerful. Blob up too much as IG and the only thing you have is 1 GM squad. Even if you dont blob up that much it can just wipe out catachans, ST maybe even Cadians

Subjugation is useful in every match-up. At worse it is just as useful as Sigil of the Rift. Also Empyreal Abyss is not underperforming. Seriously? If one nuke is underperforming it is Tyranids's.

One more thing I forgot to mention: anyone else thinking that Tzeentch Dread does WAY too much damage to basic infantry? I get having an Autocannon gives the Dread good ranged attack vs infantry and weak attack against Armor but no high risks. I get having a Khorn Dread being good against everything but being very prone to risky engagements and getting into awkward situations as it is melee only. What is the trade-off for the Tzeentch one? Beast against armor, gibs infantry with higher splash than the autocannon does and has a safe range distance to shoot from. Anyone else feels this is a bit off? Isn't it supposed to be a specialized AV choice (which usually results in not being able to deal too well with basic infantry)?

Lag wrote:One more thing I forgot to mention: anyone else thinking that Tzeentch Dread does WAY too much damage to basic infantry? I get having an Autocannon gives the Dread good ranged attack vs infantry and weak attack against Armor but no high risks. I get having a Khorn Dread being good against everything but being very prone to risky engagements and getting into awkward situations as it is melee only. What is the trade-off for the Tzeentch one? Beast against armor, gibs infantry with higher splash than the autocannon does and has a safe range distance to shoot from. Anyone else feels this is a bit off? Isn't it supposed to be a specialized AV choice (which usually results in not being able to deal too well with basic infantry)?

Highly expensive, reduced melee damage, no melee splash damage, 1000 hp, recently had a massive nerf to ranged since it has 50% fotm from 100%, ability does friendly fire.

I don't generally have the patience to write much. Prefer talking.

As much as I've enjoyed the Curse of Tzeentch, it is overpowered against Imperial Guard, and probably Orks and Tyranids as well. There are compelling reasons to change it. IG players are pretty much screwed against it without a Chimera, and Sorc players can fairly easily exploit that by bringing heavy AV against the Chimera alongside a Curse of Tzeentch cast. The original intent of the wargear was probably just meant as a disruption bomb when a model goes off, and it functions quite well in this respect against certain units and races. Probably less intended was the phenomenon of setting off a chain reaction explosion on retreating units, which is even more devastating because of the fact that they won't get disrupted - meaning the whole squad receives the full brunt of the AOE damage of each model exploding. You're pretty much screwed no matter what, and the best way to change that without compromising the wargear entirely, would probably be to just make it so that it does not work on retreat. This has a few issues of its own, but it's the best answer I can think of.

I may of been unlucky but for me CoT has been extremely unreliable, half hp squads would hardly lose models with it on, beside it's costs 100/35, and it's also quite energy intensive itself on a long cd (1-2min?) I think cot is good as it is, especially you don't see it often in 1v1 and barely in team games.

Accept that the Sorcerer is one of the best counters to expensive, elite infantry in the game, be wary about making that purchase, and stop whining about willingly buying something that your opponent has very hard counters too, much in the way you shouldn't be surprised about losing a vehicle if your opponent has an abundance of hard vehicle counters. Going off of that, accept the fact that while the Sorcerer is one of the best elite infantry counters, he himself has virtually no ability to counter vehicles, so start buying Predators and Land Raiders instead of Terminators.

Probably we all moved on with it like i said, but it is no way acceptable from a balance point of view that an hero is an 'hardcounter' to 1/3 - 2/3 of the entire T3 rooster of an army, especially when said ability IS an engagment winner and is easy to use, you don't have to do it at the start you can just wait for his melee units to come forth and then use them against himself, the sorc barely risks anything.

The primary reason Terminators are so vulnerable to subjugate isn't that their abilities can be used. It's that they can't retreat

Using all of the abilities of the libby on himself,exploding the painboy,wasting the jump of the jump troops behind your own lines, retreat isn't gonna save them.


@Lag
Tdred is fine

Fair enough.

Ace then you have bad positioning or something. For me it works almost everytime. Just use it on catachans and they are DEAD even in retreat

i think the large aoe flames of abyss are very weak but the center is fine. chains are weak right now but when they could pull units on retreat they were bullshit and there isn't any middle ground.

We could let them do higher damage when they catch up a model, but the nuke is strong enough atm.

I dunno what was so heinously OP about it dragging in models on retreat. It's a nuke! Orbital catches units in retreat and lifts, Eldritch completely screws up vehicles, etc etc - that's their "thing". The fact that it dragged models back in was the whole point of it. It's not like it dragged in entire squads.

The problem is tho, it could very likely drag-in specific & key units that had a very-high impact on the game outcome. /Commanders/Weirdboy/Librarian/'Boneheads(economydamage)

It was really silly. It can't really be compared to the likes of other globals, since Orbital Might Lift, sure - but if the targets gets out of it's viccinity they won't be harmed, whereas the Empyreal Abyss is a continous threat to anything in it's close proximity, retreating or non-retreating.

I think nukes are all in a pretty good spot right now, even though I don't find myself using abyss nearly as much as I did in retail, I don't feel the nerf that much (probably because of Ctermies).

The only nuke I think is over the top is the ig one, there's no excuse for the army wipes it causes, since you can't do pretty much anything to avoid it, I've seen people say "yeah but IG spends a lot of red on other globals so it's fine" but is that really a good reason to keep bombing run as it is?

Yes you might get lucky and take out a comm or sub-comm or squad leader with it, but if you wanna talk about economic damage what about Eldritch pretty much one-shotting a Phobos/BW alongside a snare/Time Field (if you even need the snare). Roks decimating entire squads over a wide area (which KBs retreating units, iirc?).

I don't think Abyss is terrible, but the drag-in is what made it good, if an opponent just retreats out of it you still have a chance to get a couple of models; worth it vs low model armies. Even if the "rate" at which the chains dragged units in was lowered so it couldn't happen say more than two times per nuke but they dragged in on retreat it'd be better. The chains are pretty much worthless now. Your opponent is usually either is such a bad position that they retreat out, or alert enough to move away out of chain range.

If we want to talk about real economic damage then talk about the Rocket Run, whatever you use it's unavoidable and any infantry squad level 3 or less caught in it WILL BE WIPED.

Imo it would be ok to increase the radius of the central circle by abit.

Caeltos wrote:Orbital Might Lift, sure - but if the targets gets out of it's viccinity they won't be harmed, whereas the Empyreal Abyss is a continous threat to anything in it's close proximity, retreating or non-retreating.

Shorten the chain reach? Personally I never felt Abyss was unfair in retail (played a lot of non-Chaos for about 1.5 years). Sure it hurt but hey nuke. It seems a bit lackluster now.

Lulgrim wrote:

Caeltos wrote:Orbital Might Lift, sure - but if the targets gets out of it's viccinity they won't be harmed, whereas the Empyreal Abyss is a continous threat to anything in it's close proximity, retreating or non-retreating.

Shorten the chain reach? Personally I never felt Abyss was unfair in retail (played a lot of non-Chaos for about 1.5 years). Sure it hurt but hey nuke. It seems a bit lackluster now.

I agree.

I actually use Abyss for pretty much one thing only - blocking off or spiking probable retreat paths in 2v2/3v3.

It can't really be used for anything else. That said it can't really go back to ability knockback for the chains if the rate of chains stays the same. Yes it was fun pulling in a retreating autarch and hero and wiping them, but it wasn't exactly fair.

probably with ability knockback chains is that they bugged squads every-time a model got grabbed, causing them to freeze up and stand their in the flames while getting shot by tcsm with basically no warning. it still doesn't telegraph very well; you get about two seconds warning. rocket run you get 3 or 4 but it has a huge area, it's long, and it does two passes. of course that's assuming you see the tiny red dots too.