Dawn of War Codex

Raffa wrote:No, it's not at all what GK are.

They're just a low model army, like SM.

In fact, boargame wise, each single Grey Knight is the equivalent to a fully equiped Space Marine Sergeant, with the addition of being a psyker and having Force weapons. Grey Knight heroes can instantly kill tyranid mostrous creatures, they are so absurdly better than Space Marine heroes that the comparison is impossible.
Grey Knights are as superior to Space Marines as Space marines are to normal humans. That's a bit more than "just a low model army".

Just realized something. Will the Eversor be a 2.3 or a post-2.3 change?

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Post-2.3

I'm very much liking the idea of an eversor as a commander unit (or should I say hero unit?). So much that can be done to diversify the GK play, and so many ways that you could implement the varied combat drugs. Of course, that's in the event that the UI modification is successful and stable. Otherwise, I rather like the idea of the call-in eversor. Having more GK-unique globals sounds like a good plan, helps set them apart. Although as I understand it, the hellfury global is a popular one and fills a specific role (not a huge GK player myself). I don't suppose the initial eversor call-in could cause damage, much as the Autarch call-in does?

It's been mentioned that assassins should be treated equally - I can't say I agree with this at all. Yes, they're both 'just' assassins, but having mechanics as diverse as possible helps to give each one a particular 'flavour' in-game.

As for a libby 'promotion', that's one that would need a remodelling of the current unit. I'm in agreement with some of the previous posts, having two smashy termie heroes would be rather dull. Until a non-terminator GK librarian model exists, I don't think we're going to get anywhere with this concept.


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Also, this fluff debate really isn't going to reach any mutual agreement. The fluff contradicts itself from codex to codex, and novel to novel. Both Orkfaeller's reference to an eversor taking on multiple space wolves and Lulgrim's reference to a much less successful eversor are canon. It's pointless arguing over which one is invalid.

All units can charge 12" ChrisNihilus ^^

Jazz-Sandwich wrote:It's been mentioned that assassins should be treated equally - I can't say I agree with this at all. Yes, they're both 'just' assassins, but having mechanics as diverse as possible helps to give each one a particular 'flavour' in-game.

Well, the are not "just" assassins, they are "the" assassins, each in their own role. Background wise Vindicare, Eversor, Culexus and Callidus have exactly the same stats and characteristics, and they only differ in their gear and special rules, which makes them specialists in their respective tactics: sniper, brawler, anti-psychic and infiltrator.

Seeing the Vindicare treated as just an option (and not specially good, he's just a bit better than space marine sniper scouts) and the Eversor as a full commander hero is shocking.
If the Vindicare was upgraded to be a third hero option it would look more acceptable.

I know Elite only seeks balance, but if it does it by crushing the original background it will be just weird.

Aertes wrote:Seeing the Vindicare treated as just an option (and not specially good, he's just a bit better than space marine sniper scouts)

So, you call a single model unit who can infiltrate when in cover at no energy cost, can improve his Damage for a short period of time and can also use either anti-infantry rounds or anti-vehicle rounds at the touch of a button SLIGHTLY better than SM Sniper Scouts?

Seems legit.

Aertes wrote:If the Vindicare was upgraded to be a third hero option it would look more acceptable.

I get the bad feeling you're gonna put a, 'Idea for xxx for/as a yyy'

Discreet wrote:

Aertes wrote:Seeing the Vindicare treated as just an option (and not specially good, he's just a bit better than space marine sniper scouts)

So, you call a single model unit who can infiltrate when in cover at no energy cost, can improve his Damage for a short period of time and can also use either anti-infantry rounds or anti-vehicle rounds at the touch of a button SLIGHTLY better than SM Sniper Scouts?

Yes, He should be way much better lorewise, and gamewise too since he is an unique options and the SM and Eldars can have 3 or more sniper units around.

And the passive infiltration isn't that good if you are not micro-managing the Vinidcare, since it means he won't attack at all unless ordered. That's interesting for Catachans and Genestealers since they are really good at short range and can wait for the enemy to get closer, but the Vindicare wants exactly the opposite: stay as far form the enemy as possible and a passive infiltration that forces him to stay still is not the best tool for that, i think.

Aertes wrote:Yes, He should be way much better lorewise

This is where I started reading the rest of your post in a half-assed manner

gamewise too since he is an unique options and the SM and Eldars can have 3 or more sniper units around

Meh, other races seem to do well even without snipers as is. And don't forget that Vindi can pretty much 1-shot every T1 - T2 Models and some T3 Model as well

Hm, wether i agree or not we are moving a bit away from the original thread.

The Vindicare is as he is now, and my opinion is just that the Eversor shouldn't be so completely different from the Vindicare, as to make him a hero and keep the vindicare with infantry armor.

Sorry mate but I don't know what you're doing commenting on balance if these are your observations. It's just so wtf beyond my wildest comprehension.

What next, vehicle armour Bullgryns?

Raffa wrote:

sk4zi wrote:i really dont believe that a grey knight space marine would take orders form a normal human. even if he had that assasin training.

so actually the idea to make him a commander is just fluffraping.

i dont like that.

...

Have you even read the thread?

:facepalm:

i have read the and i still dont like it.
caeltos may has excused the fluffrapiing but it still is! its also no apologize that other things are also. (like apo)
it might not interest him but for me it is important.
do you think i play this game because its so balanced, or with so less bugs? i guess not...
its the style and the atmosphere and yes, this has to do a lot with the fluff.

palm your face like you want. idc.



further i also think its the best to have the libarian pormoted to a hero.
this would increase the difference between SM and GK and give room for the assasin.
the libby discussion could end because if its a hero it can be stronger

last but not least: i think he should be like the autarch with a dropmechanic.
also to have a red cost includet

edit:

well but i read this:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=917#p26619

and so ... do what you think. my opinion wont change ... i just will not get what i want.

Caeltos wrote:Either way, The Inquisitior Lord is 100% guaranteeed to be a commander.

Two things.

1. If you don't name him LORD Inquisitor, I will hunt you down and beat you to death with the sixth ed. rulebook (nothing personal)

2, The Eversor needs an ability called "WRYYYYYY" wherein he gets heavy crush.

That is all

I love the idea of an eversor as a new GK HQ. The possibilities of what one could do based on the fluff alone is pretty cool. It could get a "jump" like the lictor, or access to special grenades for AI/AV, or a "berserk mode" where it goes invulnerable on death but stays on its feet for a few seconds and attacks with increased damage then explodes. I'd imagine its globals could be really neat when compared with the brother captain. For example, it could have a global that functions as a sort of reverse of Loyal to the End.

Shock and Awe: All units in a target area take (x%) increased damage(from the GK). Additionally, as models in the affected squad(s) fall, the affect squads begin to deal less damage(y% per model loss).


As for the GK reporting to the Assassin. Hypothetically the GK leader of a particular expedition could have been slain so the assassin(s) and remaining GK work together towards their objective lest they shame the inquisition? It wouldn't be an HQ but rather an army functioning much in the same way the Raven Guard often does while working with the assassin(s) under order of the inquisition. I'd imagine it'd fluff wise be something like this:

Upon the death of Captain Hypotheticus, the inquisition found itself in a panic. The Grey Knights whom it had dispatched were now without a leader and the assassins it had deployed into the field were at risk of rampaging out of control. In short, this operation was so far a disaster. But the Ordo Malleus was not entirely without control. After scrying the imperial tarot and utilizing all means at their disposal, they had managed a last minute break through! Temporary contact was made with Kaldor Draigo and through his wisdom from combating the daemons, the preparations for the final confrontation against Chaos was readied.
With the blessing of Draigo himself, the Grey Knights were ordered to continue striking down the corruption upon the planet Imaginarion while reigning in the Inquisitions other agents. They would work together, striking down the enemies of man, even if it meant watching their backs from their own "comrade(s) in arms.

Or it could be far simplier;

The Officium Assassinorum sent one of their Eversor Assassin to slay the Warboss.
We Grey Knights will offer him support for this mission, while the HQ commands the troops from orbit.

It's nice the idea to see a new commander for your completely original faction you've developed for the game, but in that case you'll have to think also about some exclusive global abilities for this commander.... talking about that, weren't you developing a unique new nuke for GK?

Protagonist wrote:I love the idea of an eversor as a new GK HQ. The possibilities of what one could do based on the fluff alone is pretty cool.

Yes, exactly the same as a Vindicare assassin, but this one will be just a grunt under the Eversor's command. That's the only thing that sounds weird of the Eversor hero idea.

Maybe, another option could be turning the Eversor hero the "assassin specialist". I mean, remove the Vindicare Assassin from the GK T2 options; if you take the Eversor as hero, then the Vindicare is one of his Global army abilities, like "send/call in/teleport Vindicare Assassin". This way they would have a bit more sense, because when you choose the Eversor assassin then the army is supposed to call for the help of the Asesinorum Temples.

In addition, this way T2 slot of the Vindicare would be free for the army to add another unit there. I'm missing an Inquisiorial Retinue for the GKs with options to get psykers, daemonhosts, special weapons and all the boardgame Grey knights have with them.

Aertes wrote:Yes, exactly the same as a Vindicare assassin, but this one will be just a grunt under the Eversor's command. That's the only thing that sounds weird of the Eversor hero idea.

You are right.
But the Vindicare is by far the lamest of all the assassins, so i don't mind it.

Yeah remove the Vindicare and make him exclusive to the Eversor. That sounds great!


NOT.

ChrisNihilus wrote:the Vindicare is by far the lamest of all the assassins, so i don't mind it.

You don't play the boardgame too much, do you?. The Vindicare assassin is the only one that anyone includes in their army for his capacit of killing models at will from long range, like killing the model with special weapon, or even the commander even if he's protected by a mob,

This isn't the board game.

And the woes you have regarding the eversor "leading" vindicares into battle have already been addressed numerous times now by Indrid and I.

That Torpid Gamer wrote:This isn't the board game.

Videogames about Batman aren't comics either, and you don't see Batman firing lightnings or laser beams from his eyes in videogames.
Elite is a videogame and the matter that is being addressed is: taking a character and completely changing the original idea it was created with. The matters is: an assassin with no initiative at all, only good to take orders and do one single thing: killing, is being treated as a general.
Of course, its a private proyect and it will be done as the creators want, I just give the point of view of someone with wide experience in the Warhammer 40.000 boardgame and background.
You can't take Superman, turn him into Magneto just because both fly and pretend that everyone will shut up. This is just the same. This mod is for a Warhammer 40.000 based videogame, and I give my opinion because I think it started as a great work. If I didn't like it I wouldn't give a damn.

Aertes wrote:Videogames about Batman aren't comics either, and you don't see Batman firing lightnings or laser beams from his eyes in videogames.
Elite is a videogame and the matter that is being addressed is: taking a character and completely changing the original idea it was created with. The matters is: an assassin with no initiative at all, only good to take orders and do one single thing: killing, is being treated as a general.
Of course, its a private proyect and it will be done as the creators want, I just give the point of view of someone with wide experience in the Warhammer 40.000 boardgame and background.
You can't take Superman, turn him into Magneto just because both fly and pretend that everyone will shut up. This is just the same. This mod is for a Warhammer 40.000 based videogame, and I give my opinion because I think it started as a great work. If I didn't like it I wouldn't give a damn.

Nobody has any problem with you wanting lore to come first, it happens and you're entitled to your opinion. But the way you're going about your business here is not right and that's what's annoying people. If I take your latest comment as an example:

"I just give the point of view of someone with wide experience in the Dawn of War II Elite Mod game. Your 'ideas' for units are just fantasy wishlists based on 10 minutes' thought, your balance suggestions have zero grounding in the game, and general attitude never to respond to comments you don't like or elaborate whatsoever on 'ideas' as soon as they require some actual thought, are all wrong."

The mod keeps the lore as much as possible, but puts it to one side in the interests of advancing the game in the best possible gameplay and balance ways. That's just how it works round here and that's why new units are so rare. Codex Mod puts lore first.

^That, the elite mod just like DoW2 bases itself on the lore as much as possible, but if it's required to have a better gameplay it makes the necessary changes, like it was mentitioned another time, a single space marine doesn't defeat the whole IG faction alone.

As has been said they are heroes, not "generals". You can't get annoyed by things that you make up in your own head.

It's also not a "board" game (there is no board) it's a tabletop game.

Aertes wrote:

ChrisNihilus wrote:the Vindicare is by far the lamest of all the assassins, so i don't mind it.

You don't play the boardgame too much, do you?. The Vindicare assassin is the only one that anyone includes in their army for his capacit of killing models at will from long range, like killing the model with special weapon, or even the commander even if he's protected by a mob,

Yeah, i know.
So lame.

Oh, look at my super ninja hi-tech sniper with a super-awesome name that kill everything without being seen. Pew pew pew.

It's like the wet dream of some 14 years old.

I don't like a bit.
And i think it's bad for the gameplay of both tabletop and videogames.
Glasscannon are always a risky addiction to a game, but this is a glasscannon to the extreme. I do not like it.

I never was and i dont think I can ever be annoyed by what's said in this forum. This is a thread for feedback about an Eversor Assassin as it's being proposed, and I simply won't say what I think the mod's creators want to read; I think Eversor as hero/commander is a bad idea and i give my suggestions about it.

With an Eversor hero, GK will have two melee tank specialist as heroes. Appart from "We are the Hammer" the brother-captain isn't a specialist supporting other units precisely other than by beating the enemy. An Eversor is just that, a beater. so even from the balance point of view i don't see why a hero Eversor is a good idea, he just repeats a role that already is there.

It's the same as the HT and the LA, one is a very tanky hero the other is pretty much a shock troop to deal fast damage and cause confusion with some support abilities.

That would be the role of the eversor, fast damage, perhaps stuns and stuff like that, and generally a glass cannon that retreats early but takes out units quickly plus some sort of support for the army.

Aertes wrote:With an Eversor hero, GK will have two melee tank specialist as heroes. Appart from "We are the Hammer" the brother-captain isn't a specialist supporting other units precisely other than by beating the enemy. An Eversor is just that, a beater. so even from the balance point of view i don't see why a hero Eversor is a good idea, he just repeats a role that already is there.

We haven't seen any stats or actual details about the eversor. You have no idea how he will be implemented.

Also, the idea that a second melee commander being redundant is ridiculous. The lictor alpha is utterly different from the hive tyrant, and the warlock plays completely different from the farseer. Have you played the game?