SS Performance

[HandSome SoddiNg]

i don't see the hp on TG depleting so quickly,can't find Psk-bolts in Elite wiki

I'm going by the 2.3 patch notes on that: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=957

Nemesis Focus on Strike Squad has been removed and replaced by Psybolts Ammunition - Improves the ranged damage of the squad by 15% and changes the Justicar damage from piercing_pvp to plasma_pvp

Yeah, i know the 15%. I just don't see it affecting the TG that much,it just shrug it off as if its nothing .

[Element]

I main GK, but haven't been playing them for reasons that go off point of the topic for this thread, and I find the biggest problem that I believe most people are trying to get at from what I'm reading from this thread and I would agree also is that they are underhwelming when you take one 1 of them but respectable when you take 2. The problem is taking 2, causes you to lose utility to other units in the army, you lose unit cap, and options win games in 1v1s not necessarily taking multiple of the same unit. I mean look at it like this, if you have to take 2 strike squads to get respectable damage, people know what your going to get out on the field and can plan to counter you respectively. In addition to that you just bought another of the same exact unit, but didnt gain anything new other than more of the same ranged dps. Then your opponent buys a completely new unit and now counters BOTH of the squads. In addition people are certainly going over bored with the damage strikes due in melee combat. In T1 out of the gate, there is no question that pretty much no other unit, other than a commander, or units with some investment of power, or being a power unit, can counter them. However in t2 that significantly changes. ASM with sergeant become a huge threat to strike squads, Banshees will shred them, genestealers will eat them alive, ogryns do, Orks wipe the floor with gk throughout every single tier so that is really irrelevant... and what I'm trying to get at is that in t2 the strong melee presence you once had in t1 is pretty much gone, except for purifiers and the melee walker dreadnought that is now quite suceptible to ranged fire. Especially since you cant just have all your units together throughout the game, because you need to cap points. It's a huge investment to go 2x strikes for something that can be countered by 1 jump unit or a unit of banshees getting in amongst them with a little bit of support. The problem is that if you buff their ranged damage even more to be able to beat (because they do already some what contend )with full kitted tactiacals with plasma gun, tzeentch CSM, their identity as a melee faction with the ability to sustain respectable ranged damage gets completely changed to that of just practically playing like the normal Space Marine faction, What I personally believe should be their defining factor from SM, is the ability to be able to decide as to which, with their core unit strike squads being granted the option of taking either nemesis foucs, or psybolt ammunition. I feel it's a huge loss to not be able to decide on the option to really just take 1 strike and invest in another unit, and making the one strike squad solid at melee, because one psycannon is not enough, (I'm sorry it just isn't), or being able to also choose the 2x strike pscyannon core build for some damn good ranged core presence and damage, with a defensively able melee presence that is still their from t1 but not that of t2 status. I guess, for me I'd just rather prefer an option for this unit rather than when I got t2 my opponent is going to see a ranged strike squad unit, and knowing that by only getting 2 would I actually be able to put out respectable damage, In which case they will just counter with one unit of bloodletters getting in amongst them, or some dedicated t2 melee unit.

[Ace of Swords]

ASM with sergeant become a huge threat to strike squads, Banshees will shred them, genestealers will eat them alive, ogryns do

Yeah and you have a slow + energy drain exactly for that, asm jump on you? energy drain once and they won't be able to throw meltas,jump again or use merciless strike, shees? Slow them and they are already dead, ogryns are easily countered by purfiers or even better now, the melee dred and still that slow from the SS will help alot, the same goes for genstealers.


Seriously, you seem to barely have a clue of what you can do with them, the same goes for other people in this thread, just listen to forest, he knows what he's talking about and he is hands down the only good dedicated GK player.

[Element]

@ Ace of Swords,
You make it seem like it was as if it were so easy, what decent player doesn't know how to utilize a webway gate or unit of rangers to get the flank off from, a set up kinetic pulse shot, or infiltration set up, What SM player jumps in with just a unit of ASM without any kind of support whatsoever? What decent player with any melee force doesn't know how to tie up the ranged unit that will give them problems in the engagement to ensure they win the skirmish

[saltychipmunk]

"ASM with sergeant become a huge threat to strike squads, Banshees will shred them, genestealers will eat them alive, ogryns do"

I do agree asm are a threat to them, but the banshees ogryns and genestealers are not.
one thing SS can do fairly well is stand up to conventional melee (ie non jump troops) that is one of the only constants about them that even I would not dispute.

the problems they face stem largely from when the enemies they are fighting don't come at them so directly
such as when facing dedicated ranged armies or mass disruption.

[Element]

@ Salty chipmunk,
I can agree with you that ogryns can be dealt with, but banshees are another beast entirely, in 1v1s, your not going to have your stormtroopers baby sitting your strikes throughout the whole game, and a flank under infilitration or kinetic pulse set up, and God forbid a Autarch running around to just jump the blob, no a good eldar player will definitely find the means of getting them in there.

[Ace of Swords]

@ Salty chipmunk,
I can agree with you that ogryns can be dealt with, but banshees are another beast entirely, in 1v1s, your not going to have your stormtroopers baby sitting your strikes throughout the whole game, and a flank under infilitration or kinetic pulse set up, and God forbid a Autarch running around to just jump the blob, no a good eldar player will definitely find the means of getting them in there.

Yes and your army? since you just took in the whole army of your opponent but somehow because the SS can't beat them all they are underperfoming

[Black Relic]

Every ranged squad has a hard time with dedicated melee squads. However I think GK in t2 have an easier time dealing with a melee build especially now with the IST plasma gun ability.

With even one SS, 2 IST with plasma guns, Purifiers and BC is more that enough to deal with a melee build and any supporting ranged squads, even if suppression teams. Caz thats what I like to use. Leave SS to just shoot, IST to delay with KB or suppression, SS snaring if they get close. All while Purifiers knocking in some heads and have used their (forgot the name sorry) ability in the melee blob that has been stopped in their tracks. BC (if you opponent has some ranged support) uses we are the hammer then teleports (at least that's what I would do) to tie a dangerous squad. Walker? Get purgation with psycannons (which I think they should snare vehicles armor by 6% each cannon, and not stack if it possible to limit how many times something can be stacked). You will be pop caped around there though. Although That might leave enough room for a vindicator. (against orks)

^^ Wishy wish build though. I tried it a few times and it worked. Idk if it would be this effective in higher lev games.

@ Salty chipmunk,
I can agree with you that ogryns can be dealt with, but banshees are another beast entirely, in 1v1s, your not going to have your stormtroopers baby sitting your strikes throughout the whole game, and a flank under infilitration or kinetic pulse set up, and God forbid a Autarch running around to just jump the blob, no a good eldar player will definitely find the means of getting them in there.

Yes and your army? since you just took in the whole army of your opponent but somehow because the SS can't beat them all they are underperfoming

+1

[Element]

@ Ace of Swords

WTF? Did you even read my post at all or did you just immediately see a post and start trolling? I even said that 2x strike squad with pscyannons are a damn good ranged core but they are lacking the option to be more outfitted for melee, I did say say that I personally found that nemesis focus strike squads seemed to work better for me when I ran just one strike squad because they were more outfitted to do more damage, than one psycannon as it was focused on doing ranged damage as you could even support them with your mind blades global, as opposed to where it wouldn't benefit a strike squad with a pscyannon, hence there is going to be more DPS coming out of the melee strike when you only take one of them as opposed to when you take 2 I agreed that 2x strikes with psycannons are better worth taking. I mean how could you distort that? I said Grey Knights are a "Melee faction with a still respectable Ranged core" and that's where I said the strike squad should be given both options nemesis focus, or psybolt ammunition and be able to choose which type of core presence melee, or ranged to take, I mean how does that hurt them? It's an option, you don't have to take it if you don't want it. >.>

Finally I just gave some reasons as to why you wouldn't necessarily want 2x strikes in a 1v1 because of how they can be countered with just one squad for both squads. Then your going on about how they can't take on an army? I dont get it. When did rangers + banshees + gate=whole army? when did asm + a bit of support say a commander = a whole army? 2=2 Then you keep pulling out a different squad and inflating the battle speculation in which I have to as well. Do you know how much it cost to get 2 fully upgraded strikes in t2? thats like 100power. for 2 squads having not pulled out another suqad yet or bought an upgrade on the BC, I mean thats a huge amount of rescources to play around with for countering 2x strikes in a 1v1. That's all I was trying to bring to attention, God on the same team here about trying to make them better suited for dealing with different situations but ur just looking for people to fight

[Aertes]

I feel it's a huge loss to not be able to decide on the option to really just take 1 strike and invest in another unit, and making the one strike squad solid at melee, because one psycannon is not enough, (I'm sorry it just isn't), or being able to also choose the 2x strike pscyannon core build for some damn good ranged core presence and damage.

I was talking about giving them both options, psybolt ammo and (in fact "or") nemesis focus earlier and I can't agree more. I guess some would say it makes them similar to Chaos Space Marines and their marks, but at least those work.

As long as SS are unable to handle a single IG Sentinel in a ranged engagement, I just can't take anyone's word about SS being so outstanding at shooting. I've seen that with my own eyes in my own game. Yes, then they get the psycannon and can abuse the tiny walker, but almost any other shooting unit does that without adds.

I, however, dont agree with giving SS two special ranged weapons, that's what Purgators are for after all. I see a better option to remove the psycannon from them, increase the benefits of the psybolt ammo and leave the heavy fire to the heavy fire specialists.

[Element]

I was talking about giving them both options, psybolt ammo and (in fact "or") nemesis focus earlier and I can't agree more. I guess some would say it makes them similar to Chaos Space Marines and their marks, but at least those work.

As long as SS are unable to handle a single IG Sentinel in a ranged engagement, I just can't take anyone's word about SS being so outstanding at shooting. I've seen that with my own eyes in my own game. Yes, then they get the psycannon and can abuse the tiny walker, but almost any other shooting unit does that without adds.

I, however, dont agree with giving SS two special ranged weapons, that's what Purgators are for after all. I see a better option to remove the psycannon from them, increase the benefits of the psybolt ammo and leave the heavy fire to the heavy fire specialists.

Finally someone who makes sense, and this is exactly what I'm saying as well. give them BOTH options. And exactly, one psycannon can't put the pressure on a sentinel like are you kidding me? I've played EVERY SINGLE -MATCH -UP and GK suck in 1v1 for a variety of reasons, and versatility is a huge one.

Strikes are underwhelming when you take just one squad of them and here's the reasoning behind it. The pyscannon upgrade when you take 1 and only 1 does piss poor damage, can be easily kited and has to remain stationary for quite a while time to deal out the same amount of damage a rocket launcher does in 1 shot, they can easily be kited, and when they are moving they aren't shooting their psycannon hence its pretty much worthless and you might as well have a nemesis focus strike squad because your shooting with stormbolters as you chase anyways. In addition, With Nemesis Focus you can actually utilize Mind blades in the global bar. If you take a psycannon your not utilizing the mind blades as your trying to utilize the psycannon, which does piss poor damage. So all in all your getting kited and just wasting DPS away.

However, thats where if you do choose to get 2x strikes, then things change, 2x psycannons are a much better choice, because in the long run of things, you will be trying to get t3 where you will be utilizing termis and paladins as the base of your melee core, so you don't need 2 melee strike squads, it would probably be in your best interest to utilize 2x psycannons and build up a respectable ranged force.

Then again, the problem with going 2 of the same unit in a 1v1 especially when yoour going to invest in them so much, is that it keeps you from getting out different units, and bringing additional synergy from abilities provided by other units. People keep talking about getting 2 fully upgraded strikes and a purgation squad. ROFLMFAO! Do you know much Fing power and req that's gonna cost ur @$$? I promise you'll be seeing t3 terminators before that happens. In addition to that point they cost quite a lot of pop.

I just dont get it, why don't you guys believe in just giving them both options, nemesis focus and psybolts and allow the player to choose the role in which they want to play them rather than force them to be a ranged unit. They are like chaos space marines but that is how GK are, they are more well rounded than Space Marines, and the best way to emphasize that would be to give them the option to be melee or ranged. They don't lose anything at other than gaining the ability to become a more versatile army to play with more a defining core identity. And the best part is, if you still want to go 1 strike squad with a pscyannon well all power to you because you can and nobody says you cant

[BaptismByLoli]

@ Ace of Swords
WTF? Did you even read my post at all or did you just immediately see a post and start trolling?

Finally someone who makes sense

=\

[Nurland]

How about we calm down a bit and stop throwing veiled (or unveiled) insults at each other?

[Forestradio]

If only there was some sort of recent cast on Indrid's channel where we could see a Grey Knight player use a double SS build and run a ranged Grey Knight army.

Oh wait.............

I've played EVERY SINGLE -MATCH -UP and GK suck in 1v1 for a variety of reasons, and versatility is a huge one.

This is simply not true. GKs have tons of versatility. Ranged squad in t1 that has 70 melee skill and special attacks? Transport with both AI and AV options? Terminators that not only kick ass in melee (with fucking awesome abilities as well, I mean, terminators have an anti-grav grenade ability that doesn't affect friendlies, if another faction had that there would be a colossal shitstorm) but also get FOTM weapons? I killed Toilalee's predator in a 3v3 by just chasing it and pewpewing with a terminator pyscannon (buffed with mind blades ofc) at it's rear armor, and it had like 200 hp left when I started chasing.

Strikes are underwhelming when you take just one squad of them and here's the reasoning behind it. The pyscannon upgrade when you take 1 and only 1 does piss poor damage, can be easily kited and has to remain stationary for quite a while time to deal out the same amount of damage a rocket launcher does in 1 shot, they can easily be kited, and when they are moving they aren't shooting their psycannon hence its pretty much worthless and you might as well have a nemesis focus strike squad because your shooting with stormbolters as you chase anyways. In addition, With Nemesis Focus you can actually utilize Mind blades in the global bar. If you take a psycannon your not utilizing the mind blades as your trying to utilize the psycannon, which does piss poor damage. So all in all your getting kited and just wasting DPS away.

The pyscannon is dirt cheap (80/25) for an all around splash damage weapon. It must do low sustained dps, otherwise it would become a long ranged AoE melta gun, which would be absurd.

Then again, the problem with going 2 of the same unit in a 1v1 especially when yoour going to invest in them so much, is that it keeps you from getting out different units, and bringing additional synergy from abilities provided by other units. People keep talking about getting 2 fully upgraded strikes and a purgation squad. ROFLMFAO! Do you know much Fing power and req that's gonna cost ur @$$? I promise you'll be seeing t3 terminators before that happens. In addition to that point they cost quite a lot of pop.

You didn't watch the cast, did you?

I just dont get it, why don't you guys believe in just giving them both options, nemesis focus and psybolts and allow the player to choose the role in which they want to play them rather than force them to be a ranged unit. They are like chaos space marines but that is how GK are, they are more well rounded than Space Marines, and the best way to emphasize that would be to give them the option to be melee or ranged. They don't lose anything at other than gaining the ability to become a more versatile army to play with more a defining core identity. And the best part is, if you still want to go 1 strike squad with a pscyannon well all power to you because you can and nobody says you cant

The Nemesis Focus upgrade was absolute garbage, even Caeltos himself admitted it on his stream (and Caeltos buys whirlwinds in 1v1, so yeah, when he says something is useless, it probably is). It also caused severe internal balance issues with purifiers.

Also people, remember that I was very vocal about how crap SS were in t2 prior to psybolts. The fact that I think they're fucking awesome right now should tell you that SS are fine.

[Element]

@radio the forest

Bru... you played against the one race gk actually do well against... The 1. I'm not trying to be disrespectful in any manner when I say that, but it's the truth, play against orks, chaos, eldar, 2x sentinel IG and come back and say you did well with them with 2x strike build and then come back and see if you still hold the same opinion.

[Forestradio]

Do you have any actual arguments in opposition to the detailed response I gave above, or are you just going to tell me I was lucky?

Telling me to go l2p GKs against races that aren't nids is a)extremely insulting and b)counterproductive to this sort of thread.

[Black Relic]

How about I say I only used on SS and did well vs orks. And the only reason way I was constantly push off was Now I'm Angry from the Warboss that had spike armor and Big Bang Hammer which was very effective against me.

Gk in this patch does VERY well vs chaos. I know, because I played vs them before. SS presence also pretty much negates the use of Blood Letters. 2 SS can do wonders vs Chaos which alot is made up of melee units/ or upgrades. The ranged unit/ upgrades for chaos is more expensive that the Gk ones.

How could you be having trouble vs Eldar as GK? They do so well vs them early game, and imo Eldar t1 is huge (more so than other races) They have Shurican to suppress you. And all you have to get is the force sword on BC and run him in. And if IST have nade lauchers, disrupt shees. And run in SS to shoot down shees or tie up a ranged squad. While the rest of your army does something else.

SS have trouble vs Sents. Well us of IST should be enough to put pressure. "OO but guardsmen" SS gets incinerators or Interceptors get incinerators. There you go. Chimera? Countered. Ograns? SS uses energy burst (or whatever it called).
2 Sents? 2 SS (one with incinerators), 3 IST. Not repair on Sents at all since guardsmen are getting roasted. Where is BC you say? Capping. Only big problem, would be bleed on IST.

There is my 2 sents(lol).

Fully upgraded SS do cost alot. The only thing I'd want a price reduction for is the psy ammo. by 5 power. Then it would make it perfect imo.

[Element]

@Radio the Forest
For the sake of the thread personally I'm gonna be hoppin off this talk, for the sake of the thread not blowing up into what is already looking to become a heated argument between the 2 of us. In addition to that I apologize If I offended you, honestly I think you really just mistook what I said in the passion for the argument. I said (GK) not (you) directly in any respect whatsoever, I mean GK do well in a match-up vs Tyranids and that if you were to play against the other races with this 2x strike build to come and see if you held the same opinion. I can see how you took that as "go learn to play against the races" but that was beyond the point entirely. I was saying that you can't just rely on the 2x strike squad build to be able to work against all those other factions and yes I had watched your video and never once did I say you just got lucky. I personally felt quite happy to see you do well with GK in a 1v1 because I know its hard even though the 1 match-up (I know) they tend to be better at taking is vs Tyranids. However, the cast did prove several of my points on the back-lash of playing 2x strike squad.

When you went 2x strike squad you found yourself completely committing to T2 and while this strategy can work, it's not one to be banking on. Your opponent pulled out a Carnifex (all be it they are op right now) and you had to respond with a Dread, and while you were pop capped in t2 your opponent was still pulling out t3 units on the field. You are playing from behind because they can get out things to more effectively deal with you, and against some of the other factions (which is the point I was trying to make) such an action would become a progressively upward battle, and GK are already at somewhat of a disadvantage because of their slow mobility in 1v1s. There was also the showcasing of how just 1 psycannon on a strike squad was hardly putting any hurt at all on the tyrant guard. I get they are only 25 power and because of that they should scale respectively and they do, but that's where I am trying to say the damage just isn't enough either way you slice it. The only way is to get 2 where you then finally become quite respectable as that is 10+power than a rocket launcher and will begin to do more damage than it as expected. However at the end of the day 1 rocket launcher works just fine for 10 less power and is more suited to the battle of jostling back and forth where psycannons are not, because when they move they cant fire the psycannon, and when in comparison to 2x tacs with missile launchers vs 2x strikes vs psycannons (where yes there is now a more power investment for the missile lauchers over the strikes pscyannons so they should be doing more damage) you see that tacs obviously take the AV contest 2x missile tacticals vs 2x pscyannon strikes. All in all I understand the position I am in, Your certainly higher ranking in the community over me and I get that and respect it, but I was just trying to bring up the point one psycannon on a strike squad just doesn't seem to be effective, you have to run 2xs, and that 2x strikes definitely has draw backs as well as strengths... that's all I was trying to say...

[HandSome SoddiNg]

Investing too early into 2 SS will have drawbacks later on,resources needed more importantly for BC wargears/Purifiers/GKI/GK dread,watever,etc. Though there's no doubt 2 SS will be overpowered by 2 TCSM or 2 Tacs composition,not against BL/any energy-intensive units/sub-comn. Heck,2 KCSM will give 2 SS problems under khorne worship ,even the damage sponge chosen PM will gladly ignore those pesky psy-cannons.
80 seconds CD on energy burst is long wait till the next engagement begins ,only Purification is available . Chaos heroes/globals just pose more threat to GK then SM .

Having 2 fully upgraded SS offers some flexibility vs some races/builds ,but is there still sufficient space for Helbardiers/Paladins ? Its easier for SM to face Chaos then GK , they have Shotgunners/Snipers/Vanguards/Tacs versatility adapts quickly to given situations/FC power fist stunning Khorne dread/predator now ,etc . Purifiers now have a tougher time facing Melee walkers even with NWS/MB even TL used to have Purge to assist Purgator-psy much easy job dispatching vehicles ,now replaced by Sanctuary which i absolutely dig ,he now has an Escape mechanism . I still go with Psk-bolts having a damage buff above 15% but remove that Psy-canonn from em is a start.

[Aertes]

I don't have a problem about the overall GK army. Some people are complaining like "but you have interceptors and terminators" and so on, and they where never mentioned.
This thread is about SS, and still, SS don't do what they would be expected to as basic unit. They are melee disruptors unspecialized in melee nor ranged damage that can't stand a ranged combat against almost any other unit, not to mention army, and whose only melee capacity is knockbacking the enemy.

I think they would be more useful with a normal melee skill and better damage capacity. They seem to be so focused on "wow look at my basic unit knockbacking the enemy" that seem to forget "Oh, but they do nothing else, they lose ranged engagements, melee engagements, are expensive as space marines..."

I wonder how bad would it be giving them a slight Energy cost (like 10) in exchange of giving them a worthy damage capacity. That would kind of force the player to rely on IST at first but...

As for

How about we calm down a bit and stop throwing veiled (or unveiled) insults at each other?

Nurland, the intention is nice, but I can tell you people here love too much insulting whoever doesn't say what they'd agree with.

[SuckSqzBangBlow]

I mostly agree with Sodding, that SS tend to be to general to be a truly useful unit when compared to Tacs (who are more versatile and better against heavy infantry/armor) IMO) and CSM who are still good in melee but with their marks turn into infantry shredders of any kind. Possibly some sort of ability to up ranged damage or change damage type with the justi may fix this up, or an overall buff to psibolts.

[Raffa]

Unless I am mistaken, Radio the Forest is the one player (ok along with Fear, who doesn't post here) who has bothered to main GK, try lots of different build orders and improve so he can at least compete with GK against practically anyone.

Given the low playerbase for GK, if he is making something work as GK, you can probably take that to mean it works. At the very least his opinion is by far the most informed on the subject, so take it as gospel especially if you don't play the race (or play against AIs).

[Forestradio]

I give up. Nothing I said in this thread was listened to, people can't get their facts right at all about basic dps values and melee skill, and the only thing people seem to want to do is sing over and over again "But forest, you lost that game. Clearly SS need buffs."

Before I just stop posting in this topic, a word of advice:

If you want SS changed in anyway, you must get out your theorycraft hat. What additional upgrades would you give them? How much would they cost? Build time? DPS values? Weapon range?

Then, it gets a bit harder: What synergies will this have with the rest of the GK faction? Is there any concern with the buffs that GKs have? What role would this fulfill in the GK army composition? Would it cause internal balance issues with certain units (the way Nemesis Focus Interceptors did with Purifiers?)

Finally, the matchups: When would you buy this upgrade? Early t2? Would you wait to get other units out before investing in it? What races or heroes would it be best against? What units do you feel that GK specifically struggle dealing with that this upgrade would help counter?

It happens every time something doesn't win in a cast. If you lose you are UP, if you win you are OP. Same old, same old.

QFT

/I'm out

[Aertes]

Unfortunately, one player able to handle the SS in a way they can be useful in a game doesn't make a unit good. I try to understand all points of view, but its as simple as: SS are useless untill T2 and by then they are stepped on by most others.
Their role as T1 support sorcerers is hard to fit and to use, and that simply goes against their playability. And a hard to play army will be an ignored one, and that is simply no goodif GK are expected to be played.
The most original idea in the world is not worth a cent if almost noone can understand it, they just won't buy it. SS are hard to sell because while all other armies are purchasing useful units that help the army advance and push the nemy back, GK get a unit that is not an immediate menace and will last to be: untill GK reach T2 and gets more units that can benefit their abilities. That's a lot of sinergy needed for a mere and simple basic unit whose only role should be add some punch and resistance for it's army.

[Torpid]

Nids are impossible to defeat with GK lol, one of the worst MUs in the entire game... (nearly as bad as PC vs apo)

[HandSome SoddiNg]

Well ,Half is split thinking SS being a Generalized role is fine, Me & others wants em to be Specialize in range warfare,at least better range dps output then melee capacity .

i didn't write this based on that one match itself..just i had high expectations for Psk-bolt ,then i tested it . My immediate impression on em were underwhelming. I think its better if they remove Psy-cannons entirely from SS and just buff Psk-bolts to a notch. Keep Psy-cannons permanently to Purgation & the miniaturize -ones to Helbardiers/Paladins. Just make Psk-bolts slightly expensive & effective but worth the purchase since it deals Plasma damage.
Right now i don't see 2 SS facing 2 TCSM/2 Tacs with plasma guns/1 SG in range-firefights,its almost suicidal to commit to that engagement with 1 GKI/purif as support.

[saltychipmunk]

the very fact that people are split over teh SS being too generalized vs them being generalized is ok, is proof of how one dimensional they are.

technically speaking , being merely ok at a bunch of things can be considered one role. the jack of all trades roll.

What makes tacs and csm superior over the SS right now is not the fact they are good general jack of all trades unit that are merely ok at everything. No it is the fact that they have the potential to become specialized in multiple roles.

its an " i do everything but i do it half assed vs i can choose to do a few things very well but i cant do everything" kind of deal.

And in a game about min maxing , a unit that has the ability to become great at many separate roles is far more useful than a unit that only has one choice (that choice being to be passable at everything).

SS with a psycannon wont beat tacs with a plasma gun at ranged nor will they beat Tcsm
SS with a psycannon wont beat tacs with a rocket in AV nor will they be as useful as plaguemarines.

so while SS can do both roles if only one of those roles matters to the player then effectively you are paying the same amount of money for half the effectiveness.

this is exactly why i keep saying Psy weapons are crap. this is exactly why most people don't like using fire dragons.
the ability to do ok vs everything is (more often than not) not worth the loss of being able to specialize and do GREAT vs something you want specifically.


to radio forest, if you want my honest answer for what i would do. it would probably be emphasizing the whole spell caster side of the SS with their 2 support abilities.

the psycannon should be removed (from the SS only), instead id rather have an upgrade that augments the two casting abilities they get or even add a new one (passive or active).
for example , maybe you can augment the slow to affect vehicles
or make it recharge faster or make it do a small amount of aoe damage.

or add a passive ability that reduces the damage taken of nearby squads by a small amount (so that you have synergy with battle cry / the libby)

heck i really dont see why the Strikes have both abilites tied to their justicar why not have it come standard when they enter t2 , and have the presence of a justicar improve it.

without the justicar it merely burns energy, with the justicar it slows and burns energy.

as for the psi bolts upgrade , there is no need to make it so dependent on the justicar , just remove the 15% damage bonus and give every model plasma damage.

there are many things that could be done to give the SS a better identity than simply being that one jack of all trades unit you happen to have from t1.

[Cheah18]

My two pence is that they're not so great either. They're not far off though. They are useful tier 1 cos of versatility, and in tier 2 cos of support. The problem is having a heavy armour, low model, expensive unit as a support unit as they can't really win many fights IMO. I think psy-bolts is a move in the right direction but its not quite sufficient yet.

[Cheah18]

For the record everything Radio has said has been pretty accurate and he's the one with the most knowledge on the subject.

[saltychipmunk]

I am not discrediting radio forest as he is someone who is possibly in the most know when it comes to gk.

Im just pointing out the things about the SS that make them painfully unattractive. One person being able to use SS well does not mean SS are fine.

Radio is ultimately one person with one play style and his play style happens to make the current situation surrounding the GK work for him.

throughout the game's history there were many such units who technically worked but were not competitive in design.
Walkers for the longest time fell into this category. There was never a point where they didn't do their job. They just didn't do their job well enough.

Same here , it is not like the SS cant do their job, they just don't do it well enough to justify their investment.

And what a few have pointed out here as a possible reasoning for this , is that they are too generalized. And it is a pretty compelling argument. One that should not be discarded.