Dawn of War Codex

MaxPower wrote:
Btw. fuck base building.

Its not that bad, Max. DoW1 was fine. Just don't make it like sc2 where you collect minerals for like 10 minutes every time a game starts.

I just hope it's not casual.

Gorb wrote:

MaxPower wrote:

Gorb wrote:Wraithknight, thankee. I thought they'd introduced a demi-Titan unit but I'd forgotten what.

It's a good compromise for a super-unit, in my opinion.

Obligatory lols at all the "grimdark" comments. Design and gameplay come before strict adherence to a "grimdark" colour palette and always will. Much like how the DoW II user interface was severely limited, we can hope for better this time around.

Well, if one of the defining features of your universe is the grimdarkness you better dont take that away. Just take a look at DoW 2 is it cartoony, id say yes, but it still has this somewhat grimdarkesque. But apparently DoW 3 is just pure cartoony which is a big no no for me. Yes they are WIP shots and hopefully they'll fix it, I'd be disappointed if not.

Btw. fuck base building.

I'm very sorry but I don't think you know what a "cartoon" looks like. Criticism is great, but we're rapidly going down the "baseless whining" route.

The "grimdark" nature of 40k isn't defined solely by the colour palette. Did you see the cinematic? Was that not grimdark enough?

Gud start Gorb, saying someone doesnt know something just because you disagree.

But yes Gorb i know what a cartoon is and how it looks like, granted we only had the czech cartoon Krtek in the GDR but yes, cartoony is exactly how i would describe the artstyle of the DOW 3 screenshots: unnatural proportions/lots and lots of bright and flat colors.

Pega wrote:

MaxPower wrote:
Btw. fuck base building.

Its not that bad, Max. DoW1 was fine. Just don't make it like sc2 where you collect minerals for like 10 minutes every time a game starts.

But some races just dont do base building. The Space Marines are shock troops that dont land on a planet and start building generators and factories to churn out their units. It makes no sense lorewise.

Was really excited prior to the reveal, I was hoping for something awesome but with everything shown so far I'm more like meh, doesn't excite me too much.

This rocky thing where all bodies are falling is this a representation of the skull throne?

To everyone complaining about the graphics, chill out. If the game comes out next year then it's probably still in Alpha or at the very least the screenshots are from an alpha build which is pretty much full of placeholder graphics. The units look like they got their 3D rendering with color for glamour shots mostly. It's honestly unbelievable that they would take several steps down from DoW2 visually speaking unless they got super lazy and made minimal effort like with CoH2.

Okay guys. I expect a response on this one. I am going to work but let me leave this here so everyone can bask in it:

anyone watches American wrestling? Because if you do, you will realize that SM dude at the end of the trailer is Randy Ortan.

Is this what people were expecting? Did a quick touch up.

holyoke wrote:This rocky thing where all bodies are falling is this a representation of the skull throne?

shamelessly stealing this from the community forum:

HansMoleman wrote:

Is this what people were expecting? Did a quick touch up.

Looks better, but the textures are way too clean/flat, just take a look at the fire prism in the left bottom corner, there are no details, like dirt, damage, what have you. I hope its because of the early nature of the shots but im still cautious.

Personally I would like a larger texture resolution, and more detail on the backgrounds. I would put most of the intense colours in the visual effects from the abilities used. You can preserve the colours in the models without making it too saturated by adding more layers of material texture like shiny armour, dirt and other details. DOW2 had some very colourful maps balanced by the desaturated models. I love colour in my WH40k but it needs to be maintained in certain designs and not overall in the game. I still like the direction of the palette used but they need to create more of a focal point. Of course they are designing it as a game and not a piece of art. So their main priority would be faction/unit distinction.

MaxPower wrote:Gud start Gorb, saying someone doesnt know something just because you disagree.

But yes Gorb i know what a cartoon is and how it looks like, granted we only had the czech cartoon Krtek in the GDR but yes, cartoony is exactly how i would describe the artstyle of the DOW 3 screenshots: unnatural proportions/lots and lots of bright and flat colors.

You were harping on about the "cartoon" aspect. I think you're wrong on it. I mean words have to have some meaning. Cartoons aren't solely defined by large single-colour areas alone, which is all you have at the moment. "unnatural proportions" is an absolute non-starter because a) there isn't a set physiological type for Space Marines b) Games Workshop approves all ingame content and c) it's a frigging enhanced human with superpowers, welcome to Unnatural Land.

I mean, c'mon, "good start", really? You just went "fuck base building" and left that part at that. If you can't handle people telling you you don't know something, maybe don't act like you don't know something.

I get it's your opinion, so I'm sorry if I came across too harsh on that. But all you seem to be doing about all of this is whining. 40k isn't just "grimdark" in how it looks. The actions and the the ingame setting are what is grimdark. You can depict it however you want.

You still haven't argued against the design decision to make it easier to read either, other than completely overreacting about the game being "dumbed down".

MaxPower wrote:

HansMoleman wrote:

Is this what people were expecting? Did a quick touch up.

Looks better, but the textures are way too clean/flat, just take a look at the fire prism in the left bottom corner, there are no details, like dirt, damage, what have you. I hope its because of the early nature of the shots but im still cautious.

*Thumb Up* on this

Gorb wrote:

MaxPower wrote:Gud start Gorb, saying someone doesnt know something just because you disagree.

But yes Gorb i know what a cartoon is and how it looks like, granted we only had the czech cartoon Krtek in the GDR but yes, cartoony is exactly how i would describe the artstyle of the DOW 3 screenshots: unnatural proportions/lots and lots of bright and flat colors.

You were harping on about the "cartoon" aspect. I think you're wrong on it. I mean words have to have some meaning. Cartoons aren't solely defined by large single-colour areas alone, which is all you have at the moment. "unnatural proportions" is an absolute non-starter because a) there isn't a set physiological type for Space Marines b) Games Workshop approves all ingame content and c) it's a frigging enhanced human with superpowers, welcome to Unnatural Land.

I mean, c'mon, "good start", really? You just went "fuck base building" and left that part at that. If you can't handle people telling you you don't know something, maybe don't act like you don't know something.

I get it's your opinion, so I'm sorry if I came across too harsh on that. But all you seem to be doing about all of this is whining. 40k isn't just "grimdark" in how it looks. The actions and the the ingame setting are what is grimdark. You can depict it however you want.

You still haven't argued against the design decision to make it easier to read either, other than completely overreacting about the game being "dumbed down".

What I don't understand is why any kind of contrary opinion expressed has to devolve into ad hominem in one way or another (neither side is wholly innocent here). Just make your points without saying anything about the other person.

And yes I'm jumping the gun a bit here but I've seen this happen too often.

DandyFrontline wrote:

MaxPower wrote:

HansMoleman wrote:

Is this what people were expecting? Did a quick touch up.

Looks better, but the textures are way too clean/flat, just take a look at the fire prism in the left bottom corner, there are no details, like dirt, damage, what have you. I hope its because of the early nature of the shots but im still cautious.

*Thumb Up* on this

I wouldn't thumb up it because it's still a bad direction. That's not to say its not good either, but from what I'm seeing/reading it could be reworked a tad to balance out their aesthetic. You lose so much detail and silhouette information when its very dark. When it's too colourful you lose the whole WH40k feel. Alas, the two directions need to be married for most ppl to be satisfied.

Helios wrote:To everyone complaining about the graphics, chill out. If the game comes out next year then it's probably still in Alpha or at the very least the screenshots are from an alpha build which is pretty much full of placeholder graphics. The units look like they got their 3D rendering with color for glamour shots mostly. It's honestly unbelievable that they would take several steps down from DoW2 visually speaking unless they got super lazy and made minimal effort like with CoH2.

They wouldn't use placeholder graphics for official announcement screenshots. The game has probably been actively worked on for at least two years if they are looking to launch next year, a shift in visuals at this point would be extremely unlikely.

Someone could probably do a SweetFX profile for a slightly darker tone after release if it was a really big deal for them.

My 2 cents:

People were complaining about the colour palette of Diablo 3 before it came out, I think it worked in helping highlight the clusterfuck of shit that happened on screen.

Long story short, I appreciate that people don't like it, but I'm willing to reserve judgement until I see it in game on release.

Codex wrote:My 2 cents:

People were complaining about the colour palette of Diablo 3 before it came out, I think it worked in helping highlight the clusterfuck of shit that happened on screen.

Long story short, I appreciate that people don't like it, but I'm willing to reserve judgement until I see it in game on release.

Yes, agreed. No one even knows how the game looks during gameplay and after destroying the terrain or the colour saturation of unit abilities.

I for one like the art style I see in the screenshots. It reads well, it reminds me of TT minis, I think it'll scale well with larger battles. I generally prefer readability to realism in my video games (TF2 over CoD any day).

I also see no need to try to convince anyone of anything, just wanted to stand and be counted

Gorb wrote: You still haven't argued against the design decision to make it easier to read either, other than completely overreacting about the game being "dumbed down".

Would you please show me were I did overreact "about the game being dumbed down"? I don't know anything about the game yet, because I haven't played it, but a. base building is not a good decision for some races just from a lore perspective and it is also imho just not a fun game mechanic, b. I still dont like the artstyle which reminds me too much of Dota or LoL which also sport this cartoony style and not the typical grimdark aesthetics of the W40k universe.

I'm sorry if I cant explain it any better and I'm also sorry if I might have sound too harsh, wasn't meant that way.

Codex wrote: People were complaining about the colour palette of Diablo 3 before it came out, I think it worked in helping highlight the clusterfuck of shit that happened on screen.

If only Diablo 3 would have been a good game from the get go, I wouldn't have minded the artstyle that much. But we all know that D3 was hot garbage during its release (no good loot because of the auction house, connection issues, bad story, boring last act).

Unit models on screenshots are from DoW I. I've stuck with Dark Crusade until Retribution introduced IG as a playable faction. DoW3 must be really good otherwise: no IG - no (day1) purchase

Codex wrote:What I don't understand is why any kind of contrary opinion expressed has to devolve into ad hominem in one way or another (neither side is wholly innocent here). Just make your points without saying anything about the other person.

And yes I'm jumping the gun a bit here but I've seen this happen too often.

Completely understood. I did think we might have been talking past each other a bit which is why I took the time to apologise. Max looks to be on the same level so I think it's all good

MaxPower wrote:

Gorb wrote: You still haven't argued against the design decision to make it easier to read either, other than completely overreacting about the game being "dumbed down".

Would you please show me were I did overreact "about the game being dumbed down"? I don't know anything about the game yet, because I haven't played it, but a. base building is not a good decision for some races just from a lore perspective and it is also imho just not a fun game mechanic, b. I still dont like the artstyle which reminds me too much of Dota or LoL which also sport this cartoony style and not the typical grimdark aesthetics of the W40k universe.

I'm sorry if I cant explain it any better and I'm also sorry if I might have sound too harsh, wasn't meant that way.

You're not wrong on the "dumbing down" bit, I had you confused with someone else. So I'm sorry for that, too.

I agree with you on basebuilding; I didn't like it in DoW 1 for the same reason. I even worked on a mod prototype for a time (that I never released, as usual) to make the basebuilding make more sense in the lore. Some of those ideas were eventually folded into Firestorm over Kronus, but not many of them. Too many issues with the DoW 1 codebase.

However, I think at this point basebuilding is an unknown concept. CoH 2 didn't have as much basebuilding as CoH 1 and I liked that (not many CoH players did though ). I think there's plenty of time to get our voices heard, but I don't think it's a terrible idea at all.

On the art direction, a lot of people are saying the same thing. You even posted that My Little Pony comparison, right? Warhammer 40,000 has a fan community that made the Angry Marines. And a fan community that made the Rainbow Marines:



So no, 40k isn't necessarily "grimdark". It's whatever the people making it want it to be, in my opinion. I also think Relic isn't making it too cartoonish at all, we have full 3D models with blood FX and explosions. The units are just a bit brighter than normal, which actually isn't that different from what DoW 1 was like.

People are just used to the grittiness of DoW 2's visuals.

I know that some fans made the rainbow marines, but just like the angry marines they are, atleast i hope, meant as satire.
Same goes for the reasonable marines, even though i think they are actually bad ass.

Gorb wrote:

So no, 40k isn't necessarily "grimdark". It's whatever the people making it want it to be, in my opinion. I also think Relic isn't making it too cartoonish at all, we have full 3D models with blood FX and explosions. The units are just a bit brighter than normal, which actually isn't that different from what DoW 1 was like.

WH40k IS necessarily GRIMDARK . Thats how GW positioning it and it should be like this.

More concerning than the flatness and brightness of the visuals is the scale. The first screenshot looks a little bigger than a late-game 1v1 all out brawl. The second is around double that size. If we're losing directional cover and active abilities for most units, then I want really fucking epic battles, not something that falls between DoW1 and DoW2.

And fuck base building.

But that trailer is fucking delightful, so I'm staying pumped for the time being.

DandyFrontline wrote:

Gorb wrote:

So no, 40k isn't necessarily "grimdark". It's whatever the people making it want it to be, in my opinion. I also think Relic isn't making it too cartoonish at all, we have full 3D models with blood FX and explosions. The units are just a bit brighter than normal, which actually isn't that different from what DoW 1 was like.

WH40k IS necessarily GRIMDARK . Thats how GW positioning it and it should be like this.

W40k definately is grimdark, everything you read & look at is grimdark. Im also a bit disappointed of the cover mechanics. I dont know why they cant just leave it to the Terrain at all? also time-wasting base-building is in..... argh.

DandyFrontline wrote:

Gorb wrote:

So no, 40k isn't necessarily "grimdark". It's whatever the people making it want it to be, in my opinion. I also think Relic isn't making it too cartoonish at all, we have full 3D models with blood FX and explosions. The units are just a bit brighter than normal, which actually isn't that different from what DoW 1 was like.

WH40k IS necessarily GRIMDARK . Thats how GW positioning it and it should be like this.

Games Workshop sign off on the Dawn of War games, including the content that goes into them.

Remember, this is a gameplay choice, not necessarily a purely aesthetic one.

MaxPower wrote:

Gorb wrote: You still haven't argued against the design decision to make it easier to read either, other than completely overreacting about the game being "dumbed down".

Would you please show me were I did overreact "about the game being dumbed down"? I don't know anything about the game yet, because I haven't played it, but a. base building is not a good decision for some races just from a lore perspective and it is also imho just not a fun game mechanic, b. I still dont like the artstyle which reminds me too much of Dota or LoL which also sport this cartoony style and not the typical grimdark aesthetics of the W40k universe.

I'm sorry if I cant explain it any better and I'm also sorry if I might have sound too harsh, wasn't meant that way.

Codex wrote: People were complaining about the colour palette of Diablo 3 before it came out, I think it worked in helping highlight the clusterfuck of shit that happened on screen.

If only Diablo 3 would have been a good game from the get go, I wouldn't have minded the artstyle that much. But we all know that D3 was hot garbage during its release (no good loot because of the auction house, connection issues, bad story, boring last act).

D3 is a shit game even in the most recent iteration I played. It's built to create gratifying grind for items... I thought the artstyle was functional, that will do. I think I only prefer the D2 execution because of nostalgia, D3 benefited from a bigger budget and made it look pretty enough.

P.S. [Insert Obligatory Gorb flame here]

HARRYY wrote:

DandyFrontline wrote:

Gorb wrote:

WH40k IS necessarily GRIMDARK . Thats how GW positioning it and it should be like this.

W40k definately is grimdark, everything you read & look at is grimdark. Im also a bit disappointed of the cover mechanics. I dont know why they cant just leave it to the Terrain at all? also time-wasting base-building is in..... argh.

Maybe there will be no terrain destruction

Gorb wrote:

DandyFrontline wrote:

Gorb wrote:

WH40k IS necessarily GRIMDARK . Thats how GW positioning it and it should be like this.

Games Workshop sign off on the Dawn of War games, including the content that goes into them.

Remember, this is a gameplay choice, not necessarily a purely aesthetic one.

Wut? People pay for the 40k license, GW has nothing to do with the tone or the gameplay, at the least they just check for people to not fuck up with the narrative/lore of 40k.

Ace of Swords wrote:

Gorb wrote:

DandyFrontline wrote:
WH40k IS necessarily GRIMDARK . Thats how GW positioning it and it should be like this.

Games Workshop sign off on the Dawn of War games, including the content that goes into them.

Remember, this is a gameplay choice, not necessarily a purely aesthetic one.

Wut? People pay for the 40k license, GW has nothing to do with the tone or the gameplay, at the least they just check for people to not fuck up with the narrative/lore of 40k.

I don't know if anything has changed from DoW II, but considering how Relic have spoken of their relationship with GW before, they're very close. It's why Relic had to create Blood Ravens in the first place; they weren't allowed to use a pre-existing Chapter.

Given that history (and what I know of public comments about GW exercising their control) I think it's reasonable to assume that if the colour palette in DoW 3 was "unfluffy", GW would have something to say about it. Either they gave their blessing, and / or the gameplay argument is valid enough to win out.