Dawn of War Codex

the warlock may not have 'splash damage' as you put it, but I think his tracking wtfpwning special with merciless witchblade more than makes up for that.

actually a tank does not need to do damage.

its a tank, not a damage dealer - check...

maybe its discussable what a hardcounter is, but a tank is a tank and a DD is a DD

The lines can get kinda blurry on that one...

sorry for my bad english, but is dont understand this

you mean its not that easy to say ?

ofc. there are offtanks etc. but a tank is a tank when he can soak up damage... no matter how much damage he does...
at least its like this in all other games i play

Faultron wrote:i said he cant function like a tank: i meant this way(jedi)
he dont have good dmg or dispruption threat when he reach his target or initiate the fight, yes he has nice effective hp but what he does with it
(what is tracking special btw?)

the MWB is slow wep and not even heavy melee or splash dmg
u cant use fleet floot cos u loose tankyness+damage
bad scaling after mid of t2

any hero is strong if u buy 2 wargear in t1

the wargear option is just retarded and limited and not good synergy, acesssory items are good but only HoD has synergy with the t1 armor.T1 armor force u to do jedi build which is bad.

maybe we could add an option/rework to do better spell damage/ better synergy with spell caster build? for example
destructor: u do more dmg if u buy the specific wargear, or dmg goes up as u lvl up with ur hero, + cd decreased a bit

I disagree with all of this. In fact I pretty much think the exact opposite.

Ace of Swords wrote:Also, no hero but the BC has splash damage.

Ravener Alpha has splash damage on his Acid Splatter.

Faultron wrote:i said he cant function like a tank: i meant this way(jedi)
he dont have good dmg or dispruption threat when he reach his target or initiate the fight, yes he has nice effective hp but what he does with it
(what is tracking special btw?)

He does very very frightening damage in t1 and his disruption in t2 with warp throw is still very strong, and warp throw is an amazing ability, it is certainly viable to go mwb/robes -> warp throw.

A tracking special means that when the special procs it will, 100%, hit whichever units it would have hit when it initially procced as if they never moved. Most specials aren't tracking and so if the other unit moves away or around the hero they won't hit, this is not the case with the MWB.

Tex wrote:?????????????????????????????????????????????????
[The actual message I'm totally agreeing with]

GAH!

Well said sir, well said.

i feel ppl did not understand my posts

i was reading all the posts in this thread then i decided to say what i said.

define tank role in general:durable with crowd control capabilities, or super high durability+steadyness with low-med damage or initiator. (so he basically prevents attack and protect ur other army, he holds aggro from enemy)

in this game we have some tanks who can deal high damage due to he lacks maybe crowd control.some hero is suppression immune destroys cover etc..

jedi build-mwb+cr+hod
this build grants you high effective hp+knockback immunity when shield is on.
this build is selfish and does not support your army, he can tie up 1 enemy squad maybe 2 if lucky.(Farseer singing spear do more damage and she is not a melee fighter+ its melee heavy wep,mwb not op) he is vulnerable to suppression.

this build does not grant high damage, crowd control or initiation, this is why the high hp is not so relevant, u can even ignore him after t2 if u want.there are heroes who are more dangereous if u ignore.i did see this in game or replays not only speaking out of nowhere.
i was saying only that he is not op as others think.he is definetly not the best tank not even top 3. this is why i said it is bad idea to use him as tank(jedi build) meaning utility wargears are better to use with him.

thx for the answer torpid btw

People understood your post just fine. His damage output with the jedi build is extremely good, and he provides crowd control and draws aggro onto himself with his power melee tracking (i.e. unkitable) special attack, which does it in a large AOE and pretty much guarantees that he can smack down and control any melee squad in T1. Combined with banshees he's hella scary.

Not to mention that the ranged stance allows you to isolate or prevent setup on any individual target you would prefer not to melee while giving you the freedom to do this from the protection of cover. (e.g. Warlock almost dead)

Nobody is saying he is the best tank ever of all time etc. He brings utility to the field in addition to his tank role, that doesn't mean he's a bad tank, but it does mean he has a ton of utility and damage output considering that it IS a "tank" build. And you say that his accessories have bad synergy with champion's robe- well, yes, but I still pick up warp throw many times in T2, and it's very viable.

Ok guys, the eldar chapter of project balance has come to an end. I figured I would stop once I got to 30 wins and I just go there today after spanking torpid twice in a row.

My final score was 30-9, which actually isn't nearly as good as I should have done. But I'm okay with it considering that eldar wasn't exactly my strong suit at the beginning, and I had a lot of figuring out / trying out to do.

Congratulations go out to the fine folks who bested me in combat(in terms of this project)! Toilalee did it twice, Noisy did it twice, Ace of swords had a nail biter with me and came out on top, Rataxas gave me a taste of papa nurgle to grind out a really tough game, [TLV]Souldrinker took me down once, Paranoid was bound to win at some point , and crazyman3248903248907324 took me on levi's hive with the ravener alpha.

I have updated some links for replays on the original post on page 1.

I now have a very clear perspective on the issues at hand with eldar. My comments and recommendations are as follows:

1) Webway gates are OP. They too easily change map dynamics and are hard to kill. They cost only 50 red. These are not even the main issues though. The most important thing about webway gates is that they have no global cooldown. If I am forced into a mass retreat, I can simply plant a deep gate while I still have vision, build one at my base, and once my forces reach home, I heal, reinforce, and I am back on the other side of the map in merely 8-10 seconds after reaching home base. I would highly recommend gates having a 15-20 second build cooldown as well as their red cost being increased to the 60-75 range.

2) Warlock webway gates have a healing aura. This healing aura stacks with the home base healing aura. I trolled many people with this combination, allowing my banshees to constantly be present on the field, spending a mere fraction of heal time in base. Well micro'd, my banshees didn't even need to retreat, they simple fleeted to a gate, got out at home, pop heal for 5 seconds, and gated back deep into the map. THIS HEALING COMBINATION IS NOT FAIR. THEY NEED TO BE EXCLUSIVE.

3) Dark reapers are in a weird spot. I originally thought they were mega OP. Now I am more of the opinion that they are merely frustrating to deal with, considering how killy eldar t2 is already.
I used dark reapers in about 50% of the games that I played, so I have a pretty good idea of what they do and I have a few suggestions for them:
a) Scrap the upgrade for the missle launcher and just give it to the exarch. Increase the exarch's cost to 75-25.
b) Pinning fire should multiply dark reaper projectile range by 1.2, and should multiply their damage by 0.66.

4) Warp throw is nuts. Its fucking bonkers. I am obviously in favor of easier fixes most of the time, so why don't I just go ahead and throw heart of darkness in this category as well.
I used warp throw to devastating effect many times, and it literally has no counter. It can be used out of a holofield, and that is just even more eldar anal rape.
I would definitely increase the cost of warpthrow and heart of darkness to 130-40.
It doesn't fix the fact that they over perform, but that is definitely not an investment you can scoff at, and it will hurt the warlock player financially.

5) After many, many uses. I deem MWB to be fine. It costs a lot, and it does a lot. I really don't see much wrong with that relationship. It used to be batshit OP when the warlock could chain knockback, but now that isn't really the case as I tried to do this many times. Only the special attack has power melee, so this weapon scales well, but not TOO WELL. Case closed on this one.

6) Channeling runes are crazy. If you don't have knockback on demand, the warlock can seriously make you want to crack your skull with a keyboard. It's very simple, this wargear heals too much per pulse. It needs a slight reduction. I had so many good uses of this wargear I can't even begin to list them.

7) Spirit stones over perform based on their cost. Afaik, they heal the most out of any of this type of wargear, and most notably, they blow breath of nurgle out of the fucking water. I wouldn't cry if I saw this wargear cost go up to 125-35.

8) Doom is so good. I don't know whether or not to call it OP, but its fucking good. Guide on banshees already cancels their fleet of foot penalty to damage, then you add 40% damage to a unit unfortunate enough to retreat from banshees that are nearby. I don't really know where I stand with this wargear simply because it opened up a lot of paths for me when I didn't want to use banshees. For instance, farsight, doom, and a brightlance, are usually more than enough to deal with any kind of light vehicle, where as normally more expensive counters need to be purchased. I would hate to see the option for diversity get nerfed, but its just the banshees + doom thing that is really disgusting.

9) Enhanced warp jump generator is great. I put this baby to great use. Is it OP? I don't find so. Its a solid wargear at a reasonable price tbh.

10) Heavy gauge death spinner is one of my favorite "FUCK YOU" kind of wargears. It is only OP in 1 instance, and that is when a single unit entity is capping... but we all know this. Anyway, my only recommendation is that the cost of this wargear be put on par with its direct comparisons (mcb, eks), which would put it about 120-25.

11) GU upgrades... I really feel like this upgrade offers too much for 65-15. The grenade and shield are one thing, but adding extra hp, damage, and fleet... Again, I just feel like its too much. Its a 20 power upgrade for sure and even then, I will gladly pay for it every time. And don't even get me started on how efficient of a leader the GU warlock is... [The only other fix for this I have in mind is splitting it into 2 upgrades, with one of them only unlocking fleet of foot, higher hp, and shields]

12) Ranger upgrade... 10 power for fleet, cloak, and holofield... Does anyone else think this is wrong? I mean I guess some people don't maximize their rangers, but when I really wrapped my mind around what these guys can do, there is no doubt that 10 power is a steal. You already get great knockback, detection, and sniping for 30 power. I really don't see why this upgrade shouldn't cost 20 power. (at least 15 ffs)

***ITEMS THAT WERE NOT LISTED IN THE ORIGNIAL POST***

Warp spider exarch global "crackshot"
- This global could use a touch of love. It pales in comparison to "more dakka". I'm not asking for much, just that in addition to +25% ranged damage, it also grants +7.5% range. Just a small perk to help keep it in line.

Wraithlord brightlance
- 100% fotm is simply too strong in this format. The reasons to buy a falcon are fewer and fewer, and this is a major part of the movement. I think a reduction to 66% fotm would be much more appropriate. (50% would be too low considering this is a 40 power upgrade)

Farsight
- 35 red is too cheap for this global. BACK TO 50 RED YOU GO!

Brightlance
-Upgrading to a brightlance from shurikan has changed eldar so much already. They are no longer vulnerable in the same way to early vehicles. But wait, that's not all! Now you have scorch beam to deal with, which turns out to be one of the best utility abilities a guy can ask for from something that is supposed to counter only large targets. I would go as far to say that scorch beam should be either removed or made into a separate upgrade. This is OP as fuck imo.

Autarch
-Her shield is no longer what it used to be. Can we get serious about it and make the price reasonable?

tex i can't believe you forgot me beating you with my ravenor alpha on leviathan hive :O

THATS RIGHT! IT WAS YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!!!!!!!!!!! Going to edit my post now bro bro

Interesting analysis.

@Tex
your post is really nice and well thought out. as an eldar main, i just wanted to add some thoughts to a few items:

Warlock webway gates...
I agree. While this is not on the issue, in a similar line of thought, I'd like to see team base healing aura not stack - it always seemed unfair to high model races.

Spirit stones...
What about just heal reduction instead of price increase? There's little reason for this upgrade to be expensive and heal for an unnecessary amount of HP.

GU upgrades...
I'd also add that the leader seems to cheap for 15 power.

Enhanced Warp Generator...
The synergy with heavy-gauge is a bit strong imo. In this line of thought, your suggestion of increasing the price for the weapon seems very reasonable.

Ranger upgrade...
20 power seems tad bit too much, but 10 does make everyone not even think about the upgrade twice. I've actually mentioned this before too, people seemed to think the price was ok back then. Maybe the consensus changed now?

Farsight...
50 red seems expensive. What are people's opinions on a longer cooldown (as the cooldown is very short at the moment)

@Fish

1) You are probably right about spirit stones.

2) Warlock is insane for 15 power, you are correct there too.

3) Synergy is what makes this game go round. I wouldn't say that even with enhanced warp generator that HGDS is ground shakingly OP.

4) Sniper scouts cost as much or more than vanilla rangers. They have to pay 25 power for detection and a nade. They have to pay 15 power for cloaking and a regen bonus. Catching my drift here?

5) LC pays 75 red for a short area reveal combined with a nice perk albeit, but farsight lasts for what almost a minute! 35 red is spammable, and farsight is seriously no joke when you take into consideration the same hero who uniquely has farsight, also uniquely has guide...

What about shees? Ridiculous retreat wiping potential even without swift movement (and don't even get me started on with it).

If you are not 100% sure you can win the engagement you cannot engage them in melee cos you have to be at least at 80%hp when you retreat so you won't get wiped.

Not to mention their absolutely ridiculous specials with range over 9000 and their melee skill 70. 1 shee model doing special easily sends an entire squad of sluggas/hormas/storms/wars/asms/raptors flying.
Also the warshout is op even vs other melee squads since when supressed they will lag to take that 1-2 steps to get in melee distance and won't attack.

Not sure about what can kill what but Shees seem ok to me. I mean they are really fragile, often loose their exarch and already deal reduced damage on retreat. Plus they are the only melee infantry for Eldar until they get to T3 with Seers.

I would be very interested in having Striking Scorpions though as a heavy melee unit without power melee.

against shees you pretty much HAVE to win a fight against them, otherwise you're screwed. no other squad punishes you as much as banshees. if they are so much as within sneezing distance of a devastator squad trying to retreat, that's a guarantee 1-2 model loss right there

I agree with your analysis, Tex. Thanks for your work.

Still, there is something that AFAIK you have don't mentioned or tested.

What do you think about Wraithguard? Particularly IG IMHO have really difficult to counter them, and more when they obliterates the entire IG T1 and T2 roster. Not mention that IG don't have a real counter to them, like ASM or Raptors.

In fact, they only way to counter WG I can think is some combination of Snare + long range ranged fire with buffs/artillery or Artillery spotters + long range ranged fire with some forcing melee combat by the IG heroe.

I actually find autocannons to work very well against wraithguard. the splash damage from the autocannons usually results in the warlock leader getting gibbed quite quickly. couple this with any of the IG heroes abilities, eg inq snare, or LG / LC buffs and it can really do a number on a WG squad. if you have a spotter smoke shell or basilik flair to further ruin their day you can really take a WG squad out of the equation quickly.

@Tex. Can agree with much on your post. Some small additional thoughts of my own:

The MCWB could use a higher reload time. The knockback is still borderline too fast.
And, I can't believe I'm doing this but: the DA upgrade price seems fine to me. Eldar already costs quite some power. The thing I would change though is removing the warlock leaders' leap on DA and wraithgaurd. I see no reason why they should have it.

Tex wrote:The grenade and shield are one thing, but adding extra hp, damage, and fleet...

Battle equipment doesn't provide them extra damage anymore.
It was implemented in Elite but removed again some time after.

Lost Son of Nikhel wrote:What do you think about Wraithguard? Particularly IG IMHO have really difficult to counter them, and more when they obliterates the entire IG T1 and T2 roster. Not mention that IG don't have a real counter to them, like ASM or Raptors.

You can tie wraithgaurd up with anything
Spotters, ogryns or your hero seem the best choice here.

Spotters are key to dealing with wraithguard, but don't pretend ogryns are viable in the slightest. Every single eldar hero has a way to control them or many - warp throw, kurnous, mind war, psychic storm, grav blade, grav orbs, entangle. You can combine all of them with grenades (2 grenades can wipe 100% hp ogryns w/ bone 'ead) or just wraithguard attack ground for mega lulz. Wraithguard can drop suppressed ogryns hp by 60% in one volley. Banshees also tear up ogryns since ogryns will be too busy chasing WG around, and shees ARE viable in this MU because catachans are not, since spotters are a must.

Effectively the best counter is sentinels with the missle launcher, manticores and AK storms, but doing that will just get you outteched and you will lose to rangers+prism spam, or hero synergy+avatar.

Actually, it is quite easy to at least heavily bleed stuff like ogryns by ground attacking with the WG. And bleading ogryns is... painful, to say the least.
I agree on the problem of dealing with them. spotters maybe the best option.

i have found WG to be very difficult to deal with as IG, particularly as LG, because the hard counter GM and are effective against tanks. IG doesn't have many melee units and they don't have any jump units which makes them difficult to tie up. the unit initiating the tie up is also vulnerable to the rest of the eldar army. on the flip side a LC with the fist of brockus and a leman counters them really hard.

But wraithguard are t2 so how are you meant to get to t3 to get such units? I very very rarely get to t3 in 1v1 with IG.

i mean that WG counter a very large portion of the IG rooster, even parts that are higher tier than them.

i'm also saying that NSF, 3 GMs, and a leman is very, very hard to deal with, especially if there is a chimera there as well. admittedly you're talking about army confrontations at that point though and i don't think it's really relevant to the subject at hand.

Phase armor needs to be looked at, it's very, very easy to wipe off any squad everytime the CD of phase shift and singularity is ready.

I think it's kinda fine atm. WSE being vulnerable during the duration and not being able to retreat does a lot. It has this high risk/reward thing going on. Try to spread out as much as possible when the WSE has this wargear ^^

So are there any Eldar units or upgrades that should actually be buffed or reduced in cost?

I'll respond to Tex's post primarily. I agree with most things you say, so I just want to add a few thoughts.

1) Webway gates. Agree on cooldown and red cost increase. And I still think the number of gates should be limited to 3 or 4.

3) Dark Reapers. Generally: yes.

4) Warp throw. Would it be possible to only have it effect one unit?

7) Spirit stones. I'd say slightly lower cost increase than you suggested but also a slight nerf to healing power.

8) Doom. I'd say at most increase cost to 130/30, and if so, make the weapon itself slightly better (without changing the ability). Doom is good, yes, but it's also an ability that the Farseer unfortunately needs against some enemies to have a chance, even though it locks her out from her other two good weapons.

11) Dire Avenger upgrades. Agree that it is a lot for 15 power (as someone mentioned there is no damage bonus though). Problem is that it is a must-have upgrade, since the unit is pretty crappy without it. Perhaps divide the perks in to two different upgrades (for instance Fleet of Foot + Health / Shields + Grenades)?

12) Rangers. 15 power would be plenty for their upgrade. The unit is already pretty costly for a squishy must-have unit (unless another detector is added).

* Farsight. 35 red sounds too much for me, but maybe I haven't discovered its uses...

* Brightlance. What about making the upgrade time longer so it's not such a quick response to early vehicles? Beam scorch as a separate upgrade to the bright lance might work.

And about banshees, since they've been mentioned. I think they're fine the way they are... sometimes they whack an enemy unit ("OMFG! My banshees are awesome!"), sometimes they are instantly killed ("WTF? Crappy banshees, what good are you?!"). It is VERY EASY to overestimate your banshees. They are supposed to be, and are, glass assassins.
I get that people get frustrated with them because they're good at what they do, but they can be equally frustrating to use when they're completely locked down by a good opponent.

Rangers: dont compare this unit to scouts, you cant and it is a bad perspective in general comparing 1-1 unit from different faction.We have to compare the whole t1 army+transition to t2,t3 if so. anyway
Rangers are dedicated 1.5 tier sniper squad this is the reason they cost less then scouts.they are super fragile.

GU(dire Avengers)
i really think both upgrades are not cheap or OP, without upgrades they suck hard
you cant ask for 20 power for t1, they are not superior in t1(big shoota)
Warlock leap is fine, its eldar:) not op they have low melee dps

Heart od Drakness not op at all and literally fits only with 1 build, this is why got reworked

MWB slow weapon with normal melee dmg.its fine so leave it and dont nerf more.
(I would like to see a slight attack speed buff).

Warpthrow is needed for warlock in t2 since the only source of cc if you dont buy the powersword, cant move to tier 3
cost increase=yes

Autrach buff yes, but i dont have fix statement about what to change to her yet
maybe the shield problem is enough to buff as tex said.

Global WSE summoning this is way to expensive for 200 red, they not even summoned upgraded with hayvire for a fast surprise attack,i rather go buy it from HQ since 200 red has better use for other things.who use this global over Autarch or crack shot?...so i suggest a cost decrease or change it to summonded with haywire:)

Wraithlord give him default flamer instead of mini the pew pew gun...like same damage or a slight less then Dread has.
when an infantry squad(especially AV) do enter to building WL has problem to deal with them compare to other vehicles in t2.he need support here using snipers or Wraithguards vs buildings.
not to mention he is the worst gen basher as well(again compare to all t2 vehicles) even upgraded.or flamer upgrade but i think that would be op(since this one would be more powerful then the default flamer version).


Wraithlord and about his brightlance 100% on the move upgrade
WL+Brighlance platform+banshee/shuriken vs Dread(multimelta)+lascannon+ASM/rocket TACSM

i think melee dread is more viable in this situation and even win i will test this out again+it is cheaper.i usually go melee with 1.dread vs eldar anyway...not even a question.
multimelta has shorter range but deals more damage vs brightlance.the problem is that after few shots WL go melee and win easy if u have multimelta.Dread is not supposed to win vs WL here.but if you manage to shoot with melta thats nice dmg:)
and this is only vs SM yes since i think ppl most complains from this sector:)

WL brightlance range nerf to 38-35 from 44 , i think range nerf is the most balanced solution here or raw dmg nerf.
but do not change the 100% accuracy on the move.


and about Tex replays
i dont sheit your work/effort i respect your work here since it is about to make this game better.
i watched all 2.2.5 replays doesnt prove anything. i dont say u have not right when you say something needs to be changed etc..but
to prove anything clearly must be in professionally even enviroment.and win pressure like in tourny should.these matches not even recorded by Elite ranking.pure test matches.
there was a replay in which you say you used this tactic(and easy win cos of that)
yes you used the tactics but you used more other things as well and it was decided already by the other tactic which you dont even mention.i am 100% sure you could win vs some players with any race and tactics.this is nothing to do with balance.
+you played with around 20ppl ok but only 1-2 games each which is again not fair. you should play with best 5-10 ppl and 5 matches.thats more realistic stat wise.

i am going to watch 2.2.6 replays when i have time btw.not just for balance disscussion but to learn from you.