Dawn of War Codex

Forestradio wrote:

Impregnable wrote:Sternguard covers transitional AV weakness of SM.

no...
sterns were explicitly added to give sm a better AI option on their tacs than retail, hence they used to have both a much higher dps and DoT on the hellfire rounds and they murdered everything even on retreat so they got toned down some in early elite to their current state
their av is meant to be a supplement to switch to, it's only recently it got (quite unnecessarily) buffed

Thanks for correcting me. If you have spare time, correct me on other unit addition reasons. I wish to include it in my guide on why they were added. Recently, I get asked quite a lot on why some units were added by players transferring over from retail.

Orks
Painboy - Build order variation
Flash Gitz - Build order variation

Nidz
Neurothrope - T3 Elite melee counter

IG
Artillery Spotter - Covering up T1 weakness to set up teams
Kasrkin - T3 Elite Infantry, Elite Melee counter with Plasma Guns

Chaos
Raptors - Covering up no jump troops in T1 weakness, Further T3 AV option with meltas
Land Raider Phobos - Strengthening up T3 AV

Eldar
Fire Dragons - Mobile T2 AV option
Dark Reapers - Ranged counter option against Heavy Infantry and Super Heavy Infantry

SM
Sternguard - Anti Infantry
Vanguard - T3 Elite Melee
WW - ?????????????????????????????????????

So far what ticks me off recently is that it is very hard to explain why WW was added in the first place. Is SM that weak to melee and ranged blobs in head to head?

Painboy seems to provide more than just build order variation. He makes T1 for orks a lot less painful against some chaos and nid builds.

Edit - Also, some of the units were just added because it seemed cool or literally just because. I have see a few people say that about LRP and a few others.

Impregnable wrote:Kasrkin - T3 Elite Infantry, Elite Melee counter with Plasma Guns

Their plasma guns are doing almost same damage with Guardsmen at total. That is why I never get them unless I need their Grane Launchers.

Impregnable wrote:Neurothrope - T3 Elite melee counter

I would say long range strong distruption / artillery unit.

is it just me or the whirl wind range just seem to be a bit high?

Ok. enough WW

let's discuss that TM bulb is not protecting him of KB? is that projected behavior? or a mistake?

It is intended. Instead of giving the standard KB resistance that other shields do, it reduces the accuracy of enemy attacks against him by 20% while active.

Oddnerd wrote:it reduces the accuracy of enemy attacks against him by 20% while active

so it has more damage resistance from ranged attacks, and less from melee?

LOCALgHOST wrote:

Oddnerd wrote:it reduces the accuracy of enemy attacks against him by 20% while active

so it has more damage resistance from ranged attacks, and less from melee?

I'm not sure if accuracy affects melee the way it does ranged attacks.

LOCALgHOST wrote:

Oddnerd wrote:it reduces the accuracy of enemy attacks against him by 20% while active

so it has more damage resistance from ranged attacks, and less from melee?

It has an effective damage resistance of 20% vs both ranged AND melee attacks. Yes, the TM is the only hero in the game that can dodge melee attacks and his bubble lets him do precisely that which is why it is counter-balanced by him not being kb resistant.

Does accuracy work as a damage reducer or a % chance to completely avoid one burst's worth of damage?

Oddnerd wrote:Does accuracy work as a damage reducer or a % chance to completely avoid one burst's worth of damage?

%chance to completely avoid a burst of damage. So RNG ftw.

Can we get some order in here? Whatever happened to reading forum guidelines? Codex has laid out how to approach balance issues to an almost excruciatingly detailed extent.
So all this let’s talk about this let’s talk about that should each be moved to the respective post, section and deleted if not adhering to forum/common standards of balance discussions. It is so frustrating to read through these posts as of late.

At least familiarize yourself with topic X first before we start talking about it in more detail, because chances are: you are missing some key information or aspect of said topic/unit/ability/etc.

Torpid wrote:

Oddnerd wrote:Does accuracy work as a damage reducer or a % chance to completely avoid one burst's worth of damage?

%chance to completely avoid a burst of damage. So RNG ftw.

Oh wow, so if my autocannon setup team fires a burst and misses, that's 2 seconds x 45 burst dmg per second negated. Amazing.

Oddnerd wrote:

Torpid wrote:

Oddnerd wrote:Does accuracy work as a damage reducer or a % chance to completely avoid one burst's worth of damage?

%chance to completely avoid a burst of damage. So RNG ftw.

Oh wow, so if my autocannon setup team fires a burst and misses, that's 2 seconds x 45 burst dmg per second negated. Amazing.

This is why Terminator size change has such a huge impact on its durability and survival . AV weapons are not the only ones that have accuracy reduced.
Below are the most common type of weapon families used against SHI that Terminator has.
autocannon_tank_pvp - Accuracy vs Large 1, Medium 0.9 - 10% increased Miss Chance
https://dawnofwar.info/elite/weaponfami ... n_tank_pvp

inferno_pvp - Accuracy vs Large 1, Medium 0.8 - 20% increased Miss Chance
https://www.dawnofwar.info/elite/weapon ... ferno_pvp4

melta - Accuracy vs Large 1, Medium 0.9 - 10% increased Miss Chance
https://www.dawnofwar.info/elite/weapon ... ?fam=melta

plasma_pvp vs Large 1, Medium 0.8 - 20% increased Miss Chance
https://www.dawnofwar.info/elite/weapon ... plasma_pvp

Since Termies variants are very high health low squad model type of unit, any weapon has to fire a ton of rounds in order to bring down Termies which makes sure there is more chance for that miss chance RNG to kick in. Now that there is a chance to miss fire against such a huge hp pool unit, Terminators are far more tougher to bring down using ranged fire of any type and it is even tougher if buffs and debuffs factors from other units are involved in. This means melee options against Termies are indirectly buffed for they won't miss by any chance. This change had negative impact in Team Games where Terminators are far easier to bring out and protected by more units in a tight space which hugely negates melee factors and forces ranged counter.

^ it has, very true. But I still contest that that is because of the way the maps are designed in 3v3 that are most commonly played. Not because 3v3 innately makes melee bad. Sure if there is a huge narrow firing line of 2/3 players running melee into it is very dumb and ranged will work much better. But if you play a map like tiberis or siccaris melee does amazingly. All the elite mod added maps are extremely laney and pretty bad for flanking. Except estia, that's okay.

Argus, Calderis, argent shelf, yeah, melee isn't gonna work.

Torpid wrote:^ it has, very true. But I still contest that that is because of the way the maps are designed in 3v3 that are most commonly played. Not because 3v3 innately makes melee bad. Sure if there is a huge narrow firing line of 2/3 players running melee into it is very dumb and ranged will work much better. But if you play a map like tiberis or siccaris melee does amazingly. All the elite mod added maps are extremely laney and pretty bad for flanking. Except estia, that's okay.

Argus, Calderis, argent shelf, yeah, melee isn't gonna work.

Yes, that is very true. I always agreed on your point about popular 3 v 3 maps being too lane themed in nature. I think it is a vicious cycle. A lot of new players like to play team games and SM, Chaos and Orks are new player friendly so they play those factions mostly. Thus, the most popular maps became lane themed ones because those are maps where those 3 races are better off. After popular maps get fixed on lane themed ones, new players stay away from factions that are bad for such maps in return. The fact that other factions beside those 3 being not newb friendly and comparatively harder to play make matters worse and more people stay away from those factions. The end result is that the majority decision in team games largely gears towards playing those narrow designed maps.

Once upon a time Rostam also told me about abusing game mechanics especially about suppression. Narrow designed maps allow for parking set up teams to shut down a single important path way. In those kind of maps, factions that are better than the other at playing around set up team stand off game have a huge advantage in combat. Set up team stand off game is in which each side have a set up team to draw a line and play around in that environment. It comes down to matter of who is more durable or who has more ways to de-set up the enemy set ups. In this case, it is natural that those factions that specializes in mobility and numbers get a short end of the stick.

This is a reason why I removed lane based maps in my 2-2 tourneys and faction wars.

remove rng by changing the tm shield to a 6:1 damage:energy ratio and taking away the weird accuracy modifier

Impregnable wrote:Once upon a time Rostam also told me about abusing game mechanics especially about suppression. Narrow designed maps allow for parking set up teams to shut down a single important path way. In those kind of maps, factions that are better than the other at playing around set up team stand off game have a huge advantage in combat. Set up team stand off game is in which each side have a set up team to draw a line and play around in that environment. It comes down to matter of who is more durable or who has more ways to de-set up the enemy set ups.

And then you end up vs TM turret

Impregnable wrote:Once upon a time Rostam also told me about abusing game mechanics especially about suppression. Narrow designed maps allow for parking set up teams to shut down a single important path way. In those kind of maps, factions that are better than the other at playing around set up team stand off game have a huge advantage in combat. Set up team stand off game is in which each side have a set up team to draw a line and play around in that environment. It comes down to matter of who is more durable or who has more ways to de-set up the enemy set ups. In this case, it is natural that those factions that specializes in mobility and numbers get a short end of the stick.

Sounds like he's using set up teams right.

Toilailee wrote:

Impregnable wrote:Once upon a time Rostam also told me about abusing game mechanics especially about suppression. Narrow designed maps allow for parking set up teams to shut down a single important path way. In those kind of maps, factions that are better than the other at playing around set up team stand off game have a huge advantage in combat. Set up team stand off game is in which each side have a set up team to draw a line and play around in that environment. It comes down to matter of who is more durable or who has more ways to de-set up the enemy set ups. In this case, it is natural that those factions that specializes in mobility and numbers get a short end of the stick.

Sounds like he's using set up teams right.

This.

Impregnable wrote:

Torpid wrote:^ it has, very true. But I still contest that that is because of the way the maps are designed in 3v3 that are most commonly played. Not because 3v3 innately makes melee bad. Sure if there is a huge narrow firing line of 2/3 players running melee into it is very dumb and ranged will work much better. But if you play a map like tiberis or siccaris melee does amazingly. All the elite mod added maps are extremely laney and pretty bad for flanking. Except estia, that's okay.

Argus, Calderis, argent shelf, yeah, melee isn't gonna work.

Yes, that is very true. I always agreed on your point about popular 3 v 3 maps being too lane themed in nature. I think it is a vicious cycle. A lot of new players like to play team games and SM, Chaos and Orks are new player friendly so they play those factions mostly. Thus, the most popular maps became lane themed ones because those are maps where those 3 races are better off. After popular maps get fixed on lane themed ones, new players stay away from factions that are bad for such maps in return. The fact that other factions beside those 3 being not newb friendly and comparatively harder to play make matters worse and more people stay away from those factions. The end result is that the majority decision in team games largely gears towards playing those narrow designed maps.

Once upon a time Rostam also told me about abusing game mechanics especially about suppression. Narrow designed maps allow for parking set up teams to shut down a single important path way. In those kind of maps, factions that are better than the other at playing around set up team stand off game have a huge advantage in combat. Set up team stand off game is in which each side have a set up team to draw a line and play around in that environment. It comes down to matter of who is more durable or who has more ways to de-set up the enemy set ups. In this case, it is natural that those factions that specializes in mobility and numbers get a short end of the stick.

This is a reason why I removed lane based maps in my 2-2 tourneys and faction wars.

yeah I always found frustrating how these large maps are always vetted in team games, too much argus and people forgot transports have a purpose beyond being highly productive nurseries. Maybe tiberis or siccaris have other inherent flaws but I'd hope to see them more in tournaments.

Oddnerd wrote:

Torpid wrote:

Oddnerd wrote:Does accuracy work as a damage reducer or a % chance to completely avoid one burst's worth of damage?

%chance to completely avoid a burst of damage. So RNG ftw.

Oh wow, so if my autocannon setup team fires a burst and misses, that's 2 seconds x 45 burst dmg per second negated. Amazing.

I don't think that's how it works. Hwt, along with most burst weapons, fire lots of shots during a burst and I suspect each independently roll the dice for hit/miss. If this is true, then all missing is highly unlikely, tm shield or no.
The amazing and completely unexpected part of tm shield is it making melee attacks actually able to miss (or so I heard). This is obviously a cool trait for it, and anyone who disagrees is a heretic.

Torpid and I tested it and yes, the TM shield grants a 20% miss chance to melee weapons as well. The modifier doesn't care what the source or type of the damage is afaict.

Well fack no wonder why this shield is so freaking amazing. I always wondered...

It has been like this forever though. Let’s not touch it.

Time to bring back the "TM op" debate :^)

Oddnerd wrote:Time to bring back the "TM op" debate :^)

haven't wiped any overextended sluggas with bionics lately so i don't think so

First Elite was like "Interceptors should be T1"
Then it was like "No they should be T3"
THEN they were like "No way, they should be T2!"

Goddammit guys

@Atlas
The Blood Crusher seems to be very good. How about a little bit of reduction on its charge range. It is already fast as it is and can have lots of support with worship and stuff and 2 abilities as escape mechanics and disruption. May be it is time to nerf the Blood Crusher at the current stage

About OM - make kb range of BC special not so huge. and a speed of Strike squad without a focus is too high. Other things seems fine