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Re: Eldar Howling Banshees - Chase Potential
Posted: Fri 27 Dec, 2013 1:18 pm
by Pandemic
Faultron wrote:this depends on situation.(banshee is lucky cos, when u retreat u take more damage from melee)
for example. fire dragons, wse, wraithguard or dark reapers are very good with those support, and there is units in the game which cant retreat and they gonna be in lot more trouble or the same as u used banshees.so u can say the same ,op' here...
VS eldar army u have to win the fights (with good initiation or whatever), or retreat in time otherwise u gonna be chased by any unit, cos of good counter initiation
and warlock makes this ,tactic' even more stronger/viable.
since sheez are melee u have to focus down first, when they come same like sluggas.
there is no chasing from bansheez until u lost the fight, so speaking only about problem 2 when there is problem 1 it is not fair.
Again, melee squads should not be able to chase a unit
across the entire map to eliminate them, if they wipe the squad within the first few seconds like other melee squads then fair enough but being able to eliminate a squad that has retreated for 15+ seconds is retardedly overpowered regardless if counterable or not (shotgun scouts but requires you to hold them back to stop the shees which is usually a bad tactic.)
Because those units don't go as fast as banshees and don't chase for
15 seconds and the buff that can be applied to those units only lasts 3 seconds? which may be enough to kill a vehicle/walker/target that can't retreat that is on very low HP, but anything that has about 300hp will get away without dying and sometimes even get away if there are multiple squads assaulting it, in which case the unit will still not be chased for 15 seconds unless it has very bad positioning.
If you feel that the WSE/Wraithguard/Fire Dragons/Dark Reapers are a problem with faster movement, make a thread about it. This thread focuses solely on the banshees and asking for balance since being able to keep up with a retreating unit for 15 seconds and then wipe them is OP.
Re: Eldar Howling Banshees - Chase Potential
Posted: Fri 27 Dec, 2013 2:34 pm
by Faultron
Pandemic@, sheez chasing across the map comes from warlock support, they cant without him
you even agreed on this before, why saying now it is not the warlock problem...
high moving speed alone doesnt makes them op
Re: Eldar Howling Banshees - Chase Potential
Posted: Fri 27 Dec, 2013 3:30 pm
by Ace of Swords
Faultron wrote:Pandemic@, sheez chasing across the map comes from warlock support, they cant without him
you even agreed on this before, why saying now it is not the warlock problem...
high moving speed alone doesnt makes them op
Except they can regardless of hero.
Re: Eldar Howling Banshees - Chase Potential
Posted: Fri 27 Dec, 2013 3:57 pm
by Faultron
no they cant...
you can force off sheez easy, and they wont even start chase, if not supported by warlock
Re: Eldar Howling Banshees - Chase Potential
Posted: Fri 27 Dec, 2013 4:23 pm
by Torpid
Besides, there is no reason to think that something being able to chase across the entire map is innately OP, especially when you factor in the cost and bleed of banshees.
Re: Eldar Howling Banshees - Chase Potential
Posted: Fri 27 Dec, 2013 4:40 pm
by Pandemic
That Torpid Gamer wrote:Besides, there is no reason to think that something being able to chase across the entire map is innately OP, especially when you factor in the cost and bleed of banshees.
I disagree.
The unit can chase across the entire map and wipe a squad that would have gotten away against any other unit in the game and the cost and bleed of banshees is small compared to the reward of being able to wipe an expensive squad, it can be countered and such sure which can make the banshees chasing into a bad idea due to losses but it just has too much potential to wipe squads if nothing is nearby because you had fully retreated which can turn out to be balance breaking in the right situation.
Re: Eldar Howling Banshees - Chase Potential
Posted: Fri 27 Dec, 2013 4:53 pm
by crazyman64335
cost and bleed of banshees is small?!?!? no its not. You sound very much like a player who's only experiencing the sharp end of the stick when it comes to banshees. I'd recommend trying to play them and CONSISTENTLY get those "across the map chase squad wipes" because they don't happen very often at all, in 1v1's especially because the shees get forced off and bleed very quickly due to their low health pool
Re: Eldar Howling Banshees - Chase Potential
Posted: Fri 27 Dec, 2013 4:55 pm
by Torpid
Pandemic wrote: the cost and bleed of banshees is small compared to the reward of being able to wipe an expensive squad
I have to disagree there, I personally don't even think the ability to map-chase that shees have justifies their horrendous hp, cost and bleed, overall I find shees are closer to being UP than OP. I never get them in any MU other than the LA or 2x ASM builds because of this, but this may be evident of a discrepancy in skill as I feel banshees, proportionally, scale worse alongside skill level than dire avengers and quite significantly so.
Pandemic wrote:it just has too much potential to wipe squads if nothing is nearby because you had fully retreated which can turn out to be balance breaking in the right situation.
It's called making a mistake, not balance breaking. Allowing guardians to flank your scout's position so that when you retreat from the warp spider who teleports nearby to them they end up getting naded and wiped isn't balance breaking, it's you making a mistake or them making a nice play. If you mass retreated everything without thinking about what those banshees can do to you when you do that and you took such an engagement where a mass-retreat is forced upon you, then again, either the foe made a really good play to completely change an engagement or you made a mistake by going into such an engagement, this isn't balance breaking, this is DOW2 - a very unforgiving game.
Re: Eldar Howling Banshees - Chase Potential
Posted: Fri 27 Dec, 2013 5:27 pm
by Asmon
Pandemic wrote:The unit can chase across the entire map and wipe a squad that would have gotten away against any other unit in the game...
But you're wrong here. Banshees have the same melee charge than most melee units, along with average melee animations. Which means than
any other melee unit can do what they do, assuming they have the same speed. Ofc with the Exarch they are a little faster than most units, but they're not the only speed 6+ melee squad. Not to mention Shee Exarch dies first.
That Torpid Gamer wrote:overall I find shees are closer to being UP than OP. ... I feel banshees, proportionally, scale worse alongside skill level than dire avengers and quite significantly so.
Don't say such things you're gonna be lynched =)
Re: Eldar Howling Banshees - Chase Potential
Posted: Fri 27 Dec, 2013 5:37 pm
by Toilailee
Asmon wrote:Pandemic wrote:The unit can chase across the entire map and wipe a squad that would have gotten away against any other unit in the game...
But you're wrong here. Banshees have the same melee charge than most melee units, along with average melee animations. Which means than
any other melee unit can do what they do, assuming they have the same speed. Ofc with the Exarch they are a little faster than most units, but they're not the only speed 6+ melee squad. Not to mention Shee Exarch dies first.
I'm gonna let that slide since we both know you don't really belive that and it's just the eldar bias talking. : )
Re: Eldar Howling Banshees - Chase Potential
Posted: Fri 27 Dec, 2013 11:26 pm
by Pandemic
Pandemic wrote:The unit can chase across the entire map and wipe a squad that would have gotten away against any other unit in the game...
Asmon wrote:But you're wrong here. Banshees have the same melee charge than most melee units, along with average melee animations. Which means than any other melee unit can do what they do, assuming they have the same speed. Ofc with the Exarch they are a little faster than most units, but they're not the only speed 6+ melee squad. Not to mention Shee Exarch dies first.
It's pretty obvious that i was talking about the ability and have been since the OP, read the thread.
And banshees do have a longer charge distance or at least it feels like it (will need stats to prove though.)
Re: Eldar Howling Banshees - Chase Potential
Posted: Fri 27 Dec, 2013 11:36 pm
by Pandemic
That Torpid Gamer wrote:Pandemic wrote: the cost and bleed of banshees is small compared to the reward of being able to wipe an expensive squad
I have to disagree there, I personally don't even think the ability to map-chase that shees have justifies their horrendous hp, cost and bleed,
overall I find shees are closer to being UP than OP. I never get them in any MU other than the LA or 2x ASM builds because of this, but this may be evident of a discrepancy in skill as I feel banshees, proportionally, scale worse alongside skill level than dire avengers and quite significantly so.
No words.
That Torpid Gamer wrote:It's called making a mistake, not balance breaking. Allowing guardians to flank your scout's position so that when you retreat from the warp spider who teleports nearby to them they end up getting naded and wiped isn't balance breaking, it's you making a mistake or them making a nice play. If you mass retreated everything without thinking about what those banshees can do to you when you do that and you took such an engagement where a mass-retreat is forced upon you, then again, either the foe made a really good play to completely change an engagement or you made a mistake by going into such an engagement, this isn't balance breaking, this is DOW2 - a very unforgiving game.
Chasing a unit for FIFTEEN SECONDS across the ENTIRE MAP? an example of an acceptable speed boost is the librarian speed buff it lasts about 6 seconds and does not allow a unit to chase another unit literally across the map and wipe them, the faster movement abilities for eldar give them an advantage if you happen to retreat ANY squad and in a mod so fixated on balance > lore/unique features, that should not be the case.
Eldar could have a slight advantage if Fleet & the warlock buff/wargear or whatever only gave 6 - 8secs speed boost (3 - 4secs each) at most (they are already very quick) but 15 seconds chase speed is fucking ridiculous it also allows too much potential, sometimes a lot of potential is okay but in this case it clearly isn't and allows anyone who uses these buffs to wipe a squad that should by all rights have escaped the conflict and would have against any other unit in the game.
Re: Eldar Howling Banshees - Chase Potential
Posted: Sat 28 Dec, 2013 12:21 am
by Torpid
No other t1 melee squad in the game costs so much and bleeds so much. Stop mass retreating, instead layer your retreat, bring asm back first, then shotgun blast the shees away then retreat the scouts. Otherwise don't take engagements you can't win against eldar. Eldar units perform terribly for their price in straight up combat with no tactics/strategy so the whole thing is based on positioning. They just can't fight you on your terms whatsoever so use that to your advantage to burn their farm. Probably easier to see than explain, but seriously there isn't much else we can do with shees to 'fix' them, reducing their charge to something ordinary would make them pretty worthless and buffing their combat damage would make that seriously overpowered alongside 2x rangers.
Re: Eldar Howling Banshees - Chase Potential
Posted: Sat 28 Dec, 2013 1:10 am
by Nuclear Arbitor
ehh, unless you're factoring in upgrades they're mid cost. with upgrades i think they do cost more than any other t1 melee squad, perhaps more than any other t1 squad, but that has a lot to do with the other squads not having upgrades available.
Re: Eldar Howling Banshees - Chase Potential
Posted: Sat 28 Dec, 2013 1:15 am
by Torpid
400 requisition is the highest for any t1 (not t1.5) melee squad. Then before you really want to use them in a full on engagement you must have the aspect which is another 75/25. Sure ASM jump squads cost more power but they counter suppression.
Re: Eldar Howling Banshees - Chase Potential
Posted: Sat 28 Dec, 2013 1:32 am
by Asmon
Pandemic wrote:And banshees do have a longer charge distance or at least it feels like it (will need stats to prove though.)
They have the same melee charge statistics than any T1 melee squad, ie Sluggas, heretics, horma etc. They all have the same in retail and I don't think Elite changed that.
Re: Eldar Howling Banshees - Chase Potential
Posted: Sat 28 Dec, 2013 1:37 am
by Forestradio
Asmon wrote:Pandemic wrote:And banshees do have a longer charge distance or at least it feels like it (will need stats to prove though.)
They have the same melee charge statistics than any T1 melee squad, ie Sluggas, heretics, horma etc. They all have the same in retail and I don't think Elite changed that.
hormagaunts can increase their charge distance with adrenal glands (an increase of 8 range to 12 range).
Their charge is also a leap that does damage, to compensate for the fact that they don't have sidearms.
In fact, hormagaunts are pretty good at retreat killing themselves. But they're not eldar, so no one wants to nerf them
Re: Eldar Howling Banshees - Chase Potential
Posted: Mon 30 Dec, 2013 8:41 pm
by Pandemic
I don't see them having the lower health and considerable bleed potential as justification for chasing a squad that should have by all means escaped, but perhaps that is how the Elite community believes the game should be balanced.
I disagree with it, but it doesn't appear that any changes will be made.
Re: Eldar Howling Banshees - Chase Potential
Posted: Thu 02 Jan, 2014 10:45 pm
by Cheah18
Really struggling to come to terms with this, I don't see how it can be considered balanced. Like someone up there said the ability to chase a unit in retreat for about 10 seconds then wipe it is outrageous. It is NOT compensated by the banshees' weakness as it is just a completely different part of the game. It means that sometimes a player will lose a unit, even one like tacs, regardless of them reacting in time and playing as they should.
Re: Eldar Howling Banshees - Chase Potential
Posted: Thu 02 Jan, 2014 10:57 pm
by xerrol nanoha
I think the general point is that because Banshee's are fragile and bleedy, under circumstances with equal players, these kinds of chase situations where banshees are free to follow long amounts of time are rare.
The players here who say that likely do so because they either don't encounter that problem themselves very often, or that they feel the chase power of banshees is the unique strength of the squad by comparison to other squads with other abilities.
I'm skeptical to agree to banshee's being "too strong" because you fail to force them off when they're designed to be very force-off-able (squishy, infantry armor, etc). It seems that banshees are intended to be a riskier choice by comparison to the melee of other races, and that a successful skirmish and the opportunity to chase is the payout of that risk.
Re: Eldar Howling Banshees - Chase Potential
Posted: Fri 03 Jan, 2014 3:48 am
by ThongSong
the thing is that when you enter a melee fight with banshees, you have to be 100% confident that you WILL win that fight. you either fight to the death with said squad, or die in the retreat path unless you have some disruption suppression onhand. if said squad is on their own, they're as good as dead
Re: Eldar Howling Banshees - Chase Potential
Posted: Fri 03 Jan, 2014 8:40 am
by Torpid
Cheah18 wrote: It means that sometimes a player will lose a unit, even one like tacs, regardless of them reacting in time and playing as they should.
That makes no sense whatsoever. If they reacted in time and played as they should against banshees then that would have never happened. Sure, it's ANNOYING that you have to change your whole macro-playstyle to deal with banshees, but deal with it like you deal with sentinels... When somebody gets banshees I laugh inside, because unless I'm grey knights (in which case I dread t2), they're just going to be a bleedfest for my foe and not bleed me at all regardless of the race I'm playing, but especially if I'm SM. You can never have a cookie-cutter strategy that will work vs all build orders and all foes on all maps, for every single one of those things not only should you change your build order but also your positioning, your cappers, your wargear and your general macro too. Banshees demand very unique changes but once you figure out what they are they're easy as pissing in a bucket to deal with... Which is why banshees are closer to UP than OP, at high level they're just a little bit pointless.
xerrol nanoha wrote: It seems that banshees are intended to be a riskier choice by comparison to the melee of other races, and that a successful skirmish and the opportunity to chase is the payout of that risk.
Which makes perfect sense because it's the way everything in the eldar composition works. If you simply refuse to take a fight on their terms they can't fight you without bleeding ridiculous amounts and so you can just gen-bash or run around capping (depending on the situation, but more so the race).
Re: Eldar Howling Banshees - Chase Potential
Posted: Fri 03 Jan, 2014 3:14 pm
by Dark Riku
That Torpid Gamer wrote:Which is why banshees are closer to UP than OP, at high level they're just a little bit pointless.
That Torpid Gamer wrote:That makes no sense whatsoever.
Re: Eldar Howling Banshees - Chase Potential
Posted: Fri 03 Jan, 2014 4:21 pm
by Torpid
Any Eldar players won tournaments with their stellar overpowered banshee usage yet?
Re: Eldar Howling Banshees - Chase Potential
Posted: Fri 03 Jan, 2014 4:37 pm
by Forestradio
ThongSong wrote:the thing is that when you enter a melee fight with banshees, you have to be 100% confident that you WILL win that fight. you either fight to the death with said squad, or die in the retreat path unless you have some disruption suppression onhand. if said squad is on their own, they're as good as dead
The same thing can be said about Grey Knight Interceptors.
Re: Eldar Howling Banshees - Chase Potential
Posted: Fri 03 Jan, 2014 5:16 pm
by Kvek
No it can't, if you retreat with 50% hp asms they will survive
Re: Eldar Howling Banshees - Chase Potential
Posted: Fri 03 Jan, 2014 5:20 pm
by Ace of Swords
Kvek wrote:No it can't, if you retreat with 50% hp asms they will survive
Depends on your luck, I have been chasing ASM that retreat with 99%-98% hp before the shees even touched them, and they would end with 1 model and barely any hp left after a chase from half of the map with no WL buffs involved since I was WSE, maybe codex or raffa remember it.
Re: Eldar Howling Banshees - Chase Potential
Posted: Fri 03 Jan, 2014 5:25 pm
by Forestradio
Kvek wrote:No it can't, if you retreat with 50% hp asms they will survive
they'll survive, but they'll lose at least another model if teleported after with We are the Hammer buffed interceptors.
This game perfectly demonstrates what interceptors can do to fragile T1 melee squads, especially if they pull off special attacks:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFr_LJLnOhk
Re: Eldar Howling Banshees - Chase Potential
Posted: Fri 03 Jan, 2014 7:33 pm
by Toilailee
Dark Riku wrote:That Torpid Gamer wrote:Which is why banshees are closer to UP than OP, at high level they're just a little bit pointless.
That Torpid Gamer wrote:That makes no sense whatsoever.
qft
Shees are the biggest bs troll unit in the entire game.
Toil out.
Re: Eldar Howling Banshees - Chase Potential
Posted: Sat 04 Jan, 2014 12:25 am
by Nurland
Ok this thread is getting out of hand. Locking it.