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Re: Supression teams (Devastators)
Posted: Fri 03 Jan, 2014 1:48 pm
by appiah4
Kvek wrote:Did you just ignore what i said above that link?
No, I was just pointing out that the link, to me, proved exactly the opposite of what you argued above it; hence my questioning its seriousness..
Re: Supression teams (Devastators)
Posted: Fri 03 Jan, 2014 2:05 pm
by Sub_Zero
Devs with vengeance rounds will help only versus early bloodcrushers and deff dreads if you are still in T1. Maybe against wartrukks that deliver orks into fight.
Re: Supression teams (Devastators)
Posted: Fri 03 Jan, 2014 2:12 pm
by Lulgrim
appiah4 wrote:First, it is not briefly attacked, it is under constand Devastator fire.
It is briefly attacked by
two simultaneously. Most of the time it's not.
appiah4 wrote:Second, what is this supposed to mean; if you want to rely on Vengeance rounds to take down a transport make sure you bring at least three and hope your opponent is dumb enough to wade into the fire arc of them all?
You presented it as if the Chim was being shot by four Devs at the same time. Which was not the case.
appiah4 wrote:Third, 22:30-45 Chimera gets side armored by VR HB at mid range, front armored by VR HB at long range, despite having half health manages to force off both.
Side armored? What is
that supposed to mean...
Re: Supression teams (Devastators)
Posted: Fri 03 Jan, 2014 2:50 pm
by Nurland
While the devs were not able to take out a Chimera (which is arguably the hardest t2 transport to kill) they were able to put pressure on it so that it really couldn't push too far into the firing arc. If Pega had been too aggressive with the Chim he probably would've lost it to those devs. Toil was T1 and Pega T2 with a vehicle out. I don't see anything wrong with Pega being able to take that engagement. I mean being able to outtech your opponent so heavily should have a potential payoff.
I also really don't see a problem in an uncountered 120 power walker that has a anti vehicle upgrade upgrade costing extra 80/20 or so severely outperforming T1 upgraded set up teams in countering a transport...
Why should a T1 upgrade (that is intended as mostly anti infantry) even hard counter vehicles? It's not like most SM commander struggle against vehicles or lack the options for fielding AV fast in T2. Vehicle snaring VR would be absolutely ridiculous.
It's like Torpid pointed out. Not all things in this game scale well nor are they meant to. I personally think Advanced Targetting doesn't even scale that bad since it has its uses in late stages of the game countering melee heroes and squads like Nobz and Seer Council pretty nicely.
Re: Supression teams (Devastators)
Posted: Fri 03 Jan, 2014 6:53 pm
by Asmon
Precisely. There are countless of games that are or could be won by countering Elite melee units (mainly Nobz) thanks to suppression teams and staying T2. The fact that SM devastators can deal even more damage while retaining their suppression ability is priceless under such circumstances.
Re: Supression teams (Devastators)
Posted: Fri 03 Jan, 2014 9:17 pm
by Pandemic
Asmon wrote:Precisely. There are countless of games that are or could be won by countering Elite melee units (mainly Nobz) thanks to suppression teams and staying T2. The fact that SM devastators can deal even more damage while retaining their suppression ability is priceless under such circumstances.
Targets are no longer suppressed when Vengeance Rounds are activated.
Re: Supression teams (Devastators)
Posted: Fri 03 Jan, 2014 9:41 pm
by [TLV]Soul_Drinkers
Yeah but its a simple toggle on and off ability. U usuallu only need one burst of supression anyways
Re: Supression teams (Devastators)
Posted: Sat 04 Jan, 2014 8:13 am
by Lag
Pandemic wrote:Asmon wrote:Precisely. There are countless of games that are or could be won by countering Elite melee units (mainly Nobz) thanks to suppression teams and staying T2. The fact that SM devastators can deal even more damage while retaining their suppression ability is priceless under such circumstances.
Targets are no longer suppressed when Vengeance Rounds are activated.
Welcome to the topic.
Re: Supression teams (Devastators)
Posted: Sat 04 Jan, 2014 9:52 pm
by Toilailee
[TLV]Soul_Drinkers wrote:Yeah but its a simple toggle on and off ability.
It is?
Re: Supression teams (Devastators)
Posted: Sun 05 Jan, 2014 1:17 am
by Asmon
Pandemic wrote:Targets are no longer suppressed when Vengeance Rounds are activated.
The point is that AT is in no way a downgrade since the squad can still suppress. Ofc it cannot suppress while the ability is active but that's not the point.
Nobz (since they're the main example) are countered by multiple devastators (plasma and hb) and the heavy bolters can furthermore increase their damage for a duration, which is quite wonderful and definitively represents an advantage over any other suppression team.
Re: Supression teams (Devastators)
Posted: Sun 05 Jan, 2014 6:45 am
by Black Relic
Vengence rounds of Devs is not toggled. It has a duration.
Now couple devs with Advance Targeting with a VoT what do you get? A freaking scary glass cannon.
Re: Supression teams (Devastators)
Posted: Sun 05 Jan, 2014 3:57 pm
by Orkfaeller
Toilailee wrote:[TLV]Soul_Drinkers wrote:Yeah but its a simple toggle on and off ability.
It is?
It isnt.
Re: Supression teams (Devastators)
Posted: Sun 05 Jan, 2014 5:31 pm
by [TLV]Soul_Drinkers
Yeah my mistake u toggle it on for the duration.
Re: Supression teams (Devastators)
Posted: Sun 05 Jan, 2014 6:38 pm
by Dark Riku
[TLV]Soul_Drinkers wrote:Yeah my mistake u toggle it on for the duration.
Please stop using "toggle" or "toggle on" they both imply it being something you turn of and on at will based on your energy. Will stop the confusion ^^
Re: Supression teams (Devastators)
Posted: Mon 06 Jan, 2014 11:12 am
by Lulgrim
Toggle in general means something you can switch on and off. The DoW2 internal terms for ability activation are "timed" and "toggled".
Re: Supression teams (Devastators)
Posted: Mon 06 Jan, 2014 6:26 pm
by [TLV]Soul_Drinkers
Thx for claryfying. I cant know everything
Re: Supression teams (Devastators)
Posted: Mon 06 Jan, 2014 7:20 pm
by Bahamut
that was my suggestion tho.. to acutally make it a toggle. Didn't know it was gonna cause 3 pages of raging about their performance
Re: Supression teams (Devastators)
Posted: Mon 06 Jan, 2014 10:15 pm
by Toilailee
Bahamut wrote:that was my suggestion tho.. to acutally make it a toggle. Didn't know it was gonna cause 3 pages of raging about their performance
Re: Supression teams (Devastators)
Posted: Wed 08 Jan, 2014 3:35 pm
by appiah4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ihcb58y_bITex and Toilalee mock people calling VR UP, then a single bloodcrusher owns 4 squads of Advanced Targeting Devastators all by himself.
Then Toilalee proceeded to get a 5th Dev squad with AT. 5 VR squads together did.. Nothing? The Bloodcrusher charges in, flanks them and forces all five off again.
At one point it charges three VR devastators firing at it together with VRs, and lives to route them all.
Toilalee goes on to lose the game due to devastator req bleed.
Wonderful guys.
That sure was a very useful AV upgrade right there. It was really funny watching the LOL VR ARE UP HAHA.. to WTF I LOST?
Re: Supression teams (Devastators)
Posted: Wed 08 Jan, 2014 3:43 pm
by Torpid
With 7 VPs left and a hell of a lot of passive play on Toil's part.
Like, seriously, that's a testament to the awesomeness of VR, Christ, what the fuck do you want. I mean, I think GM flamers are UP I want to be able to buy 6 of them and counter vehicles alongside entire t2 armies.
Re: Supression teams (Devastators)
Posted: Wed 08 Jan, 2014 3:50 pm
by appiah4
Are gm flamers supposed av upgrades? Id expect six vrdevs to take down or force a bc off not vice versa. And not unlike six flamer gms and any infantry squad.
Re: Supression teams (Devastators)
Posted: Wed 08 Jan, 2014 3:55 pm
by Torpid
Vengeance rounds are not an AV upgrade.Nothing in t1 could possibly be an AV upgrade, that would be horribly imbalanced. You don't get vengeance rounds to fight off vehicles, you get it to pressure set-up teams, bleed enemies in t1 more, counter sentinels or unsuppressable heroes while also granting some supplementary AV to stall the pressure of any vehicles that come out against you.
The only reason 6 VR devs couldn't deal with the BC is because it was supported by BLs and raptors so lining his devastators up in such a way that would deal with the BC wasn't a possibility.
Re: Supression teams (Devastators)
Posted: Wed 08 Jan, 2014 3:58 pm
by appiah4
That Torpid Gamer wrote:Vengeance rounds are not an AV upgrade.
As long as we agree on that fine. Because a lot of ppl here kept arguing no they actually do work on vehicles. No they dont work on anything. Even tzeentch marines owned them one on one because they need to re setup when the hb dude is dead. Whatever. Replay speaks for itself. Pretty amusing.
Re: Supression teams (Devastators)
Posted: Wed 08 Jan, 2014 4:16 pm
by Faultron
appiah4 wrote:That Torpid Gamer wrote:Vengeance rounds are not an AV upgrade.
As long as we agree on that fine. Because a lot of ppl here kept arguing no they actually do work on vehicles. No they dont work on anything. Even tzeentch marines owned them one on one because they need to re setup when the hb dude is dead. Whatever. Replay speaks for itself. Pretty amusing.
are u sure u play the same game or watch the same replay?
2 vengeance rounds devs forced off BC super fast, they had trouble vs 2 jumper/tele units
Re: Supression teams (Devastators)
Posted: Wed 08 Jan, 2014 4:35 pm
by Sub_Zero
How devs with VR work against infantry is still a mystery for me really. I understand that the closer enemy unit is the more damage he takes. But that is the case with standart heavy bolter that supresses. VR allow to extend firing arc and then what happens next I just don't know. How much damage unit takes being right at the edge of the firing arc?
I know for sure that vengeance rounds allow you to decimate anything at close range. But what is the point of extended firing arc? From my experience they do negligible damage to units who stay at the edge of the firing arc.
Sorry, I didn't watch that video but from my experience devastators with VR activated are capable of hurting vehicles like bloodcrusher/unupgraded deffdreads. One game I managed to almost destroy a charging bloodcrusher into devastators. VR perform well only at close range.
I think I gotta do some tests. Devs with VR activated vs any ranged unit (different ranges)
Re: Supression teams (Devastators)
Posted: Wed 08 Jan, 2014 5:48 pm
by Dark Riku
What appiah4 said.
@Torpid. Tex made plenty of mistakes that game. Not to mention bad purchases.
Re: Supression teams (Devastators)
Posted: Wed 08 Jan, 2014 6:12 pm
by Faultron
subzero@
what cant u understand?
all suppression teams has damage reduction on longer distances as u said.
activating vengeance rounds doesnt change this, it gives base damage increase(+75% if not changed) and range...and dmg inc vs vehicles +900%
Re: Supression teams (Devastators)
Posted: Wed 08 Jan, 2014 6:43 pm
by Sub_Zero
What is the purpose of extended range? You know your firing arc become longer when you activate VR.
I use VR a lot. And I can see them being effective only at close range. And I don't understand why VR give you a longer firing arc.
P. S. By the way, it seems that lascannon devs' tear-down time is 3 seconds instead of 2.5 seconds of standart devs. Why? Havocs for example remain their insta "supression" on their lascannon.
Re: Supression teams (Devastators)
Posted: Wed 08 Jan, 2014 7:46 pm
by Nurland
Let's all calm down a bit or I will lock the topic. K?
Re: Supression teams (Devastators)
Posted: Thu 09 Jan, 2014 5:23 am
by Magus Magi
The following is a quote that I posted under the youtube video of the Tex v. Toil dev heavy game:
"Don't think the Vengeance rounds upgrade had nearly as much of an effect on this game as it might seem on first glance.
Starting at 7 minutes we have a fight for the north Power node. Vengeance rounds don't show up until 7:30 (damage to 1 CSM, scouts drive them off), and do modest damage compared to the scouts. Then again, during the 10:20 fight, vengeance rounds are used, but matter much less than the Devs still suppressing (1 CSM killed w/HP shot support). The fight at 12:15 is the same story. Vengeance on raptors, little effect, with the scouts as main DPS and the other Devs suppressing.
The theory, I suppose, was that Vengeance round fire would serve as AV. The fights at 14:30 an 17:00 seem to suggest that even 4 Vengeance round Devs have difficulty dealing with a single blood crusher. He got closest to finishing it at 18:00, but I don't think Tex would be hard pressed to repurchase it at that point.
I suspect that it was the suppression that got Toilailee within striking distance of victory, not accumulated Vengeance round capability."
If anything, I believe that this game demonstrates that there should be some limit on the number of suppression teams a faction should be able to field. I don't think it showcases the power of vengeance rounds, if anything, it demonstrates their inability to perform up to snuff.
Toil spent 5 Devs worth of resources on Vengeance round upgrades and a light, tier 2, vehicle erased a 361 VP lead. (60 to 421 at 14:31 (Bloodcrusher charging and about to make contact))
And he's a terrific player. Grade A++. He's the perfect player to look at when measuring an ability's maximum effectiveness.