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Re: Slaanesh Champion
Posted: Mon 13 Jul, 2015 1:17 pm
by ChrisNihilus
firatwithin wrote:Flexibilty is the main weakness of Chaos race IMO. They can't react early vehicle rushes like SM or IG for example. Yes, Chaos anti-vehicle is insane. And their any kind of anti-something is insane. But for that, it takes a bit time. Bringing a Dread is not easy as you know. If he brings Wraihguard, reaction is Khorne CSM or Bloodletters for example but that depends on player of cource, you spended good resource but now you are missing AV so he brings Wraithlord to punish your KSCM and now you need AV but need money, population and time, in the mean time he takes back map control. There are tons of examples like these.
Exactly.
That's why it work as a faction, and it's balanced even with so many redundant and powerful units.
When it will be too much, and players decide that Chaos need a hand, then it will be time to alleviate Chaos weaknesses.
I do not like the idea of even more inflexible units, they will not improve the gameplay by themselves, since choices are not a problem with chaos and i don't think they will ever be.
What a subcommander would add to Chaos? I don't miss any tools.
I would definitely prefer an upgrade to keep Bloodcrushers and/or Bloodletters useful in T3 if they manage to survive, or frag missiles for Plague Marines, or, better, a Champion/Icon of Excess for my Noise Marines, since they are the first of the T1.5 units to lose importance in late game.
Even a Dark Apostle as an upgrade to Cultists, to make the worship better and wider in T3, where it lose its importance.
I don't say to eliminate Chaos primary weakness, since that's part of them, but we are at a point where new units wouldn't simply matter.
Re: Slaanesh Champion
Posted: Mon 13 Jul, 2015 11:27 pm
by Paradise Lost
Swiftsabre, I'm not asking for more Chaos buffs, Chaos is already a pretty solid faction. I know this. I main them and they don't seem UP at all. All I'm saying is that some units, even if good, feel rather dull and that could be fixed if they were made more fluffy, but that doesn't mean buffing them. You can remake a unit so that it gets nerfs and certain areas and buffs in others, ending up exactly as cost-effective as they previously were. I don't get why they would necessarily be unbalanced.
ChrisNihilus wrote:firatwithin wrote:Flexibilty is the main weakness of Chaos race IMO. They can't react early vehicle rushes like SM or IG for example. Yes, Chaos anti-vehicle is insane. And their any kind of anti-something is insane. But for that, it takes a bit time. Bringing a Dread is not easy as you know. If he brings Wraihguard, reaction is Khorne CSM or Bloodletters for example but that depends on player of cource, you spended good resource but now you are missing AV so he brings Wraithlord to punish your KSCM and now you need AV but need money, population and time, in the mean time he takes back map control. There are tons of examples like these.
Exactly.
That's why it work as a faction, and it's balanced even with so many redundant and powerful units.
When it will be too much, and players decide that Chaos need a hand, then it will be time to alleviate Chaos weaknesses.
I do not like the idea of even more inflexible units, they will not improve the gameplay by themselves, since choices are not a problem with chaos and i don't think they will ever be.
What a subcommander would add to Chaos? I don't miss any tools.
I would definitely prefer an upgrade to keep Bloodcrushers and/or Bloodletters useful in T3 if they manage to survive, or frag missiles for Plague Marines, or, better, a Champion/Icon of Excess for my Noise Marines, since they are the first of the T1.5 units to lose importance in late game.
Even a Dark Apostle as an upgrade to Cultists, to make the worship better and wider in T3, where it lose its importance.
I don't say to eliminate Chaos primary weakness, since that's part of them, but we are at a point where new units wouldn't simply matter.
This is exactly why I suggested T3 upgrades for MoK/MoT CSM that would make them more in tune with their tabletop/fluff versions. In spite of that, I'd prioritize improving the Bloodcrusher so that's it's useful for more than 30 seconds.
Re: Slaanesh Champion
Posted: Mon 13 Jul, 2015 11:36 pm
by Dark Riku
Paradise Lost wrote:In spite of that, I'd prioritize improving the Bloodcrusher so that's it's useful for more than 30 seconds.
Improve micro, done.
Re: Slaanesh Champion
Posted: Mon 13 Jul, 2015 11:39 pm
by Paradise Lost
Dark Riku wrote:Paradise Lost wrote:In spite of that, I'd prioritize improving the Bloodcrusher so that's it's useful for more than 30 seconds.
Improve micro, done.
Sure thing. Still, I'd improve it so it is useful for more than 45 seconds, for your magical, universal solution for all things not balanced does not make much of a difference here considering that not even in high lvl casts/matches I've seen a BC make it to T3.
Re: Slaanesh Champion
Posted: Tue 14 Jul, 2015 12:20 am
by Torpid
Paradise Lost wrote:Dark Riku wrote:Paradise Lost wrote:In spite of that, I'd prioritize improving the Bloodcrusher so that's it's useful for more than 30 seconds.
Improve micro, done.
Sure thing. Still, I'd improve it so it is useful for more than 45 seconds, for your magical, universal solution for all things not balanced does not make much of a difference here considering that not even in high lvl casts/matches I've seen a BC make it to T3.
A unit doesn't need to be purchased and survive in T3 most of the time in order to be balanced.
Re: Slaanesh Champion
Posted: Tue 14 Jul, 2015 1:01 am
by ChrisNihilus
Torpid wrote:A unit doesn't need to be purchased and survive in T3 most of the time in order to be balanced.
But it should reward you for doing so, and it's always nice when units have still a place when built in later tiers.
Makes things more interesting.
A T3 upgrade would do so.
Re: Slaanesh Champion
Posted: Tue 14 Jul, 2015 1:31 am
by Paradise Lost
ChrisNihilus wrote:Torpid wrote:A unit doesn't need to be purchased and survive in T3 most of the time in order to be balanced.
But it should reward you for doing so, and it's always nice when units have still a place when built in later tiers.
Makes things more interesting.
A T3 upgrade would do so.
This.
Re: Slaanesh Champion
Posted: Tue 14 Jul, 2015 9:35 am
by Swift
But the point of the mod is not to make things fluffy, it's to make them balanced. You propose that there is no net buff, but how, you propose changes for these units, but how do you make a unit changed without indirectly doing something to it's role when it already has a well defined and important one. Bringing things closer to the fluff does not always coincide with them being better for it.
At this point I wonder if these are serious suggestions because you want to improve things, or in reality are fanboy musings.
Re: Slaanesh Champion
Posted: Tue 14 Jul, 2015 5:44 pm
by egewithin
I am so sorry but no upgrade can make Bloodchrusher make more survival then now. Because it has sooooooo little health that can go down in 2 AV shots, doesn't matter what it is. BC is an early pressure choice when enemy has no vanti-vehicle weapons around yet. That is it. As you can imagine, it doesn't provide anything more than his charge ability. Also, even you want an upgrade, why in T3? It survived the whole T2, you have good micro or the enemy is playing a little bad, what do you want more? To go head to head with Terminators? Nooooo!..
Re: Slaanesh Champion
Posted: Wed 15 Jul, 2015 6:12 am
by Paradise Lost
Swiftsabre wrote:But the point of the mod is not to make things fluffy, it's to make them balanced. You propose that there is no net buff, but how, you propose changes for these units, but how do you make a unit changed without indirectly doing something to it's role when it already has a well defined and important one. Bringing things closer to the fluff does not always coincide with them being better for it.
At this point I wonder if these are serious suggestions because you want to improve things, or in reality are fanboy musings.
Wanting to make the game more fun makes me a fanboy? How mature of you. I could say the same about you, getting so extremely anxious about Chaos getting more stuff.
At this point I wonder if these are serious complaints because the community would react badly, or you're just projecting.
Re: Slaanesh Champion
Posted: Wed 15 Jul, 2015 6:13 am
by Paradise Lost
firatwithin wrote:I am so sorry but no upgrade can make Bloodchrusher make more survival then now. Because it has sooooooo little health that can go down in 2 AV shots, doesn't matter what it is. BC is an early pressure choice when enemy has no vanti-vehicle weapons around yet. That is it. As you can imagine, it doesn't provide anything more than his charge ability. Also, even you want an upgrade, why in T3? It survived the whole T2, you have good micro or the enemy is playing a little bad, what do you want more? To go head to head with Terminators? Nooooo!..
Nobody said that, really. You're just making stuff up now.
Re: Slaanesh Champion
Posted: Wed 15 Jul, 2015 7:35 am
by egewithin
Paradise Lost wrote:Nobody said that, really. You're just making stuff up now.
Paradise Lost wrote:In spite of that, I'd prioritize improving the Bloodcrusher so that's it's useful for more than 30 seconds.
Re: Slaanesh Champion
Posted: Wed 15 Jul, 2015 9:13 am
by Swift
You're proposing changes that are not needed because they're more fluffy. The mod is about balance not fluff alignment. And if ti helps I main Chaos so I should be the first one to welcome any advantage the faction gets. But I'm not because it takes a lot of tuning to work with big changes like this when the units (TCSM more than MoK) are in a very good spot, but even then KCSM are workable.
Re: Slaanesh Champion
Posted: Thu 16 Jul, 2015 11:24 pm
by Paradise Lost
firatwithin wrote:Paradise Lost wrote:Nobody said that, really. You're just making stuff up now.
Paradise Lost wrote:In spite of that, I'd prioritize improving the Bloodcrusher so that's it's useful for more than 30 seconds.
Replying with memes and purposely twisting the meaning of both your and my words? Nice to see you've conceded defeat in such a mature, humble way.
Re: Slaanesh Champion
Posted: Fri 17 Jul, 2015 3:25 am
by Tex
Have you ever played against 3 bloodcrushers that charge through your lines at different angles?
It's not very expensive to do, and it is very viable. Sure, 1 might die, but when your opponent screws up his positioning by the slightest bit, you just won another engagement in "alt x" fashion, and now control the entire map while building another bloodcrusher.
The unit serves its purpose very, very well. Micro and worship are incredibly important for this unit.
The best part is yet to come though. Because having all of these bloodcrushers is going to mean you will want heretic support, a great transition from building bloodcrushers is building bloodletters to counter their counters. Now as you pile up demons, 1 or 2 heretic squads can cause an unbelievable amount of damage mitigation. With setup teams countered by bloodletters, there is not fucking much that can stand up to multiple bloodcrushers under worship.
Again, Riku nailed it.
Micro.
Re: Slaanesh Champion
Posted: Fri 17 Jul, 2015 5:01 am
by egewithin
Paradise Lost wrote:Replying with memes and purposely twisting the meaning of both your and my words? Nice to see you've conceded defeat in such a mature, humble way.
These should be something that I am missing but I am not going to push anymore.
Re: Slaanesh Champion
Posted: Fri 17 Jul, 2015 5:20 am
by xXKageAsashinXx
I remember when this thread was about a Slaaneshi commander. *sigh* Good times... good times...