Dawn of War Codex

Funny how 1/4 if not half of this thread ended up as arguements about lore, TT and 'commander vs hero' stuff

Sent from my GT-S5830i using Tapatalk 2

@ Aertes

Trust Caeltos, he knows what he's doing The Eversor will be different, I guarantee it.

Jazz-Sandwich wrote:The lictor alpha is utterly different from the hive tyrant, and the warlock plays completely different from the farseer. Have you played the game?

The hive Tirant isn't only melee focused, he can get ranged weapons and have ranged damage and support abilities. The lictor is an infiltrator and one-on-one fighter, they couldn't be more different.
The Warlock is an offesnive sorcerer and melee brawler, while the farseer is a support sorcerer and relies in her abilities to fight in melee.

I don't know where you want to reach saying that the CURRENT heroes made by THQ (although slightly modified in Elite) are different, that's known already.

@ Ar-Aamon

I don't have any problem about Caletos' capacity of making a good work, I've seen and played quite a lot with what he's done at the moment, I'm only concerned about the path things seem to be following. It looks like the Eversor is just a personal favourite that had to be put in a top place. I hope to be wrong.

2/4 bro cap's weapons are support oriented (staff and sword), one of his armors is support. Accessories don't provide too much support unless you count the Psychic Lash into a support like ability. So BC is not just a melee brawler...

You missed the point about heroes entirely. 2 melee heroes can be different, hence BC can be vastly different to play when compared to Eversor and will play a different kind of a role than BC. If HT and LA can be different, why can't BC and Eversor?

lol the LA is supposed to be a lone wolf kinda thing but that one ability (pheromones? I forget....) is an awesome means of support play styles.

I just don't agree with the idea of the Eversor sharing slot with the Brother-Captain or any other hero/commander/whatever-name.
We'll see what comes out of this.

Take it up with Relic if you're unhappy with the structure. A Lictor/Ravener leading Tyranids like a Hive Tyrant ain't exactly fluffy. Nor is Apo leading Spess Mehreenz or a Warp Spider leading like a Farseer.

To be honest I think it's clear you value the gameplay less than the lore, which as I've said is great, but Eversor has to be a hero simply to function properly. It's highly likely the time others have dedicated into the game you've spent reading lore, books etc.. (I do too sometimes FYI), but in this mod and forums the gameplay HAS to come first, otherwise the game doesn't prosper and people stop playing.

Elite Mod and Codex Mod took two different paths here - I'm not saying piss off to Codex Mod, but it's probably a mistake trying to bring Codex Mod principles into Elite.

I only tried Codex mod once, didn't like it, uninstalled and never played it again; so i don't pretend to suggest that Elite should look like Codex because I don't even know Codex too much. I only play retail and Elite.

Do I value background more than game?, i'd say my balace is about 60%-Background 40%-Game. So, more or less, yes.

Lictors and Raveners leading tyranid armies are a complete nonesense lore wise, that's very right (perhaps the Lictor could be justified but would require a conscious effort of lore knowledge). As I said before, that's the only slice of sense that a hero Eversor Assassin can stick to.

But well, we'll see how does the hero Eversor performs, but the ideas I read about him here already aren't very encouraging. Someone said he could leap into combat just like the Brother-Captain teleports.
I was told to trust it to be a good work and I'll do so at least untill it's touchable.

Well they are called heroes, not commanders/generals so they are not leading any armies per se...

Just look at it this way.

The heroes aren't "commanding" the armies. YOU, as a player, are.
The HT isn't "commanding" the swarm. The hive mind is. You are the hive mind when playing.

Dark Riku wrote:The heroes aren't "commanding" the armies. YOU, as a player, are.

That still leaves the Eversor as a hero and his supposed equal, the Vindicare, as a grunt. Whatever, I just want to see how things come about this.

Just forget the terms already ^^
The "hero" is just there at the start of the battle. That's all.
It would look silly if they'd call him "random first encounter dude/thing".

They still are equals.

You're giving extra meaning to something for reasons known only to yourself.

As every one knows, gameplay and balance before lore. EA (lolol) is going to be a hero. And it will work alot better than if he was a sub. GG WP

The really really vexing thing though is that it isn't even a lore issue, but Aertes has persuaded himself that it is and it's impossible to change his mind after he's done that.

Aertes wrote:

Dark Riku wrote:The heroes aren't "commanding" the armies. YOU, as a player, are.

That still leaves the Eversor as a hero and his supposed equal, the Vindicare, as a grunt. Whatever, I just want to see how things come about this.

So the Swarmlord is a lesser being to the Ravenor Alpha? The Autarch less than a Warp Spider Exarch? The LIbrarian lower down in status than the Apothecary?

I know the Swarmlord isn't a sub commander, but tabletop in he leads shit. Please Aertes, for the sake and sanity of the community, please put some thought into your posts, then people might appreciate it. At the moment you seem to post on a whim all off the top of your head.

Black Relic wrote:As every one knows, gameplay and balance before lore. EA (lolol) is going to be a hero. And it will work alot better than if he was a sub. GG WP

In fact, Eversor Assassin and Vindicare Assassin could be awesome heroes and subcommanders at the same time.

Eversor Assassin as heroe: glass cannon, high burst damage. Combat specialist.
Vindicare Assassin as heroe: long range assassin, but with support abilities. Map control specialist with traps and auspex.

But well, Gameplay and Balance > Lore.

I don't think the Eversor should be a glass cannon.
It's not a tank, but in the tabletop it has some resistance. I believe around 650±20 hp if translated into the game.

As for the gameplay, i leave it to the Big Boss, but i guess a melee charger/debuffer playstyle would be thematic.

I theorycrafted an Eversor, gave some details on wargear/role/how he would do in various matchups.

Starting statistics:

700 health, 5.5 speed, 70 melee skill, melee charge, small size

40 dps melee_pvp (Neuro Gauntlet), 13 dps piercing_pvp (bolt pistol)

Starting ability: Combat Drugs: toggle on/off ability. Costs 10 energy to toggle on, then drains 3 e/s afterwards. Increases the Eversor's speed by 0.5, damage resistance by 10%, and melee damage by 15%.

Wargear options:
T1 weapon: Needle Pistol: 100/25, grants the "Precision Shot" ability that deals 100 sniper_pvp damage to a single model and slows movement by 30 percent for 5 seconds. 45 energy cost, 50 second cooldown. Does not improve the Eversor's melee or ranged attack.

T1 weapon: Electric Neuro-Gauntlet: 100/20, 50 dps power_melee.

T1 armor: Enhanced Combat Drugs: 125/25, reduces the energy drain of "Combat Drugs" to 1.5 e/s and increases health by 100.

T1 accessory: Assassin's Training: 125/25 Increases melee skill by 3 while equipped and grants weapon_knockback immunity while "Combat Drugs" is activated.

T2 weapon: Crushing Neuro-Gauntlet: 150/45, 70 dps heavy_melee

T2 weapon: Crippling Neuro-Gauntlet: 120/30, 60 melee dps with 5 piercing dps per second for five seconds afterwards.

T2 armor: Psychotic Concoction: 110/30, makes "Combat Drugs" grant suppression immunity and gives the Eversor a death explosion (60 explosive damage in radius 7). Increases health by 150.

T2 accessory: Melta Bombs: 110/35, grants the "Melta Bomb" ability that sticks a melta bomb that DOES NOT SNARE to a large target, doing 150 melta damage after a 2 second delay. 55 energy cost, 60 second cooldown.

T2 accessory: Terrifying Berkser: 110/25, reduces the damage of nearby enemies by 15% in radius 12 when "Combat Drugs" is active

T3 armor: Assassin's Duty: 150/50 "Combat Drugs" makes the Eversor invulnerable for the duration but if his energy drops below 25, he dies instantly.

Combat Drugs, Combat Drugs, Combat Drugs. Use them, rely on them, and keep that Eversor happy by giving him energy.
Now, some concerns about some of the stuff I came up with. Speed 5.5 might be a little too good to start with, but the idea of the Eversor is to be a solo commander who bleeds and bleeds your opponent and rewards you for managing him well. The "Shrouding" buff from the libby will work well on him, perhaps too well. The strike squad justicar and purifiers will have excellent synergy too with their ability to restore energy. Kitting out the GK army to form the Eversor as the spearhead will have a big pay-off. You could make him a vehicle hunter with melta bombs+crushing gauntlet, or a more flanking oriented commander with the extra benefits that his armors/accessories give him to Combat Drugs. Hellfury and mind blades will probably remain the same, since Mind Blades has found an essential place in GK play and hellfury is necessary to do the AoE that GK units sometimes lack. Even if Dark Excommunication gets reworked into something that isn't an "I win" ability, I would prefer it to remain exclusive to the Brother-Captain, and give the Eversor something else, although I am not sure what that would be.

The Matchups
SM: Probably want the Electric Gauntlet straight off to do serious damage to kiting tacticals. Assassin's training to prevent knockback from full-auto and shotgun blast would also be good. The role of the Eversor will be to tie up the tacs or counter-initiate the ASM alongside the strike squad. In t2, melta bombs+VA/lasrhino will be a hard counter to the razorback and put a lot of pressure on dreadnought variants. The DoT gauntlet will help controlling a melee techmarine/bubble FC.

Chaos: Tie up the CSM or bleed the heretics. Will probably rely on a rhino/interceptors more in this MU to deal with havoc instant suppression. In t2, the crushing gauntlet will easily deal with a fast bloodcrusher, and the psychotic concoction will make the Eversor much harder to control.

Eldar: The Eversor's massive bleed potential early on (speed 6, high melee+ranged dps) will put serious hurt on Dire Avengers. Assassin's training will make him immune to specials from shees even while moving. Could struggle vs a guardian weapon team, will lack linebreaking that the Brother-Captain possesses in this MU and so might be forced into interceptors. In t2, the AoE damage debuff option will probably be the best to give puries the advantage over shees in melee and mitigate dark reaper dps.

Orks: If there is a painboy/knife k nob/kitted out warboss, the Needle Pistol will aid in controlling them. Apart from that, the Eversor should be flanking and bleeding the shoota boys before they are upgraded (in early t1) and later on helping strikes with mind blades go head to head with sluggas/stormboyz. Melta bomb in t2 allows him to put pain on a fast Deff Dread and ward off any trukk purchase.

IG: Killing guardsmen in t1, Needle Pistol if Commie Lord/Inquisitor go for a more melee approach. Might struggle more in this MU vs double sents than the BC without the WATH buff to chase/reposition/alleviate bleed. Will put serious hurt on ogryns in t2, but ogryns struggle vs GK anyway. His AV potential might help deal with the fast chimera.

Tyranids: Will force early Crippling poison purchases to control his speed 6. Vulnerable to flesh hook and warrior knockback without Assassin's training, which will also give him the edge in hero duels. Probably will want to stay near the main force of IST+Strikes+rhino to tank termagaunt ranged dps and provide nice power melee dps against the warriors. In t2, he can flank and easily deal with zoanthropes with a situational Needle Pistol purchase. Might struggle vs Genestealers, lacking any sort of control vs them.

Interesting ideas numbers have to be worked out that's for sure but the T3 armor doesn't sound like a well thought piece of gear. Imagine a lvl 10 Eversor with all the energy restore potential GK provide. :/

The T3 armor sounds like plain broken piece of whoregear. Lvl 1 Eversor with 18 seconds of invulnerability. Also the Terrifying Berserker sounds a bit underwhelming with such a small radius.

Believe it was Caeltos who suggested a wargear kinda like that

Otherwise, this Eversor needs to be a killing machine given he is unlikely to have infiltration (except from the oh-so-epik GK Libby), with no real snipe attack, low hp and a bolter equivalent for ranged combat.

A means to restore hp in combat, like Feeder Tendrils, and/or limit the rate he loses hp at is pretty much mandatory I think. Since a jump pack (lulz) is probably out of the question or a deadly jump, from T2 onwards he needs ways of getting quickly into combat and butchering stuff when he gets there.

There are a lot of hurdles to make this guy work, and even more to make him compete with the versatile BC who gives you the option of fast-tech, whilst having great stall potential and becoming one of the hardest setup team counters in the game from T2 with his teleporter and weapons.

The only really simple thing I've thought of that could work nicely...a Vindicare Assassin call-in option in T2? For a reduced price but costing red. Fluffy too

He could have an acessory in T2 that gives him a leap-into-combat with a high cooldown (15seconds), and an improved melee charge. Which is obviously specialising him into that bleeding role.

A sprint armour might be useful too.

That assassin's training accessory would be too strong. Making him an absolute nightmare to deal with when he's alone since you need to dedicate two ranged squads to deal with him since he'll butcher melee. The needle pistol could probably warrant a damage buff to ~20dps.

Don't think this guy should have any heavy melee options. And the energy drain suggested for his combat drugs is too low. Don't see why the melta bomb has a timer if it doesn't snare, it doesn't need one. I know these are just suggestions but, there's my comments.

You have to keep in mind that the Eversor does not have the WATH buff. At all. WATH is the foundation of everything that you do with GK from kiting in t1 to terminators in t3. If he's not going to have the same support and buff capabilities that the BC does, he needs to be incredibly strong on his own. That's why I gave him the invulnerability armor and the options to increase his melee skill, etc.

Forgot to mention: The Mind Blades global should be exclusive for the BC.

If you want Eversor Assassin to get into melee quick. Make his leap be a teleport leap without the teleport animations and make his leap be some what long in contrast to the purifiers charge range. Or a wargear that makes his teleport/leap have longer range in contrast to purifiers.

He gets into melee quick time, and its harder to kite the assassin since he just shows up in the middle of your army unannounced. Of course not infiltration unless its similar to catachans and genestealers standing still and then infiltrating after a given amount of time. Which this should be given at the start of the game if implemented.

There is my take on him.

Repeated, sorry.

Black Relic wrote:If you want Eversor Assassin to get into melee quick. Make his leap be a teleport leap without the teleport animations.

Just what i was afraid of. That way GK will have 2 heroes that are melee brawlers with the same teleporting ability. I hope they distinguish each other in something else than the model.

@Aertes
Hey bru, I get where ur comin from, I really do but, how they are looking at this, is not in terms of the vindicare falling under the assassin, they are looking at this in terms of general unlock as the tiers progress. As the tiers progress the vindicare assassin becomes available to be fielded because that is where he/she will have the most effect based off units that will be present, and units coming out, Notable vehicles. I also get where your coming from in that of the ever so being just another melee commander. However there are differences between melee commanders of even the same faction in terms of the role they play on the battlefield which causes them to be significantly different in that of how they are played.

As for me, I find it curious to see how he comes out, and agree he should be a commander choice as well because 3 subcommanders is crazy.

In addition to note, people suggested also moving up the librarian to the commander which I would also put my vote in for, There would need to be some thinking done on how to separate the roles of him and the brother captain however, and if that were to happen in order to replace the the sub commander out by his promotion as a hero choice I think the brotherhood champion would fill the role best as he's a single unit entity. I haven't even begun to think about his role, avilities, and damage yet but I'm sure we could come up with something

So This Evarsior Assassin will be released once 2.3 hits ??