A throw out of ideas for GK

[Element]

Threads Purpose:
- See if any of the things listed are appealing with both sides (The side that believes Gk are fine, and the side that doesn't).. I'm not expecting them all to pass... They won't, but I do think 1 or maybe even 2 can pass with a bit of nitpicking.

Thread Rules:
I know that obviously there are many among us that find GK to be fine right now and others that don't. Obviously since I made this thread it's apparent which side I'm on, however that does not mean I will be trolling or become rude towards someone I disagree with, Therefore if you are going to participate in this thread you must

-Be respectable of everyone's opinions and post
- Read everything that has been posted beforehand so you don't throw off the direction in which the conversation of the thread is taking.
-Quote what post or topic you are referring to, so that we know what your talking about, and are not saying stuff and we have no idea specifically as to what.

Without further ado here it is

Major Goals in Mind when I was making this
-because these are the 2 major problems I find with GK atm.
1.) Increase the Scaling potential of lower tier units into higher tiers
2.) Increase the options of choice and remove the linearity of GK into/in T3. In other words, make some units more prevailant as a choose option, and making it so that even units in T1 in T2 are worth getting in T3 over Terminators and Paladins in lines with point 1

Purgation
-Start of with psilencers and make their incinerators an option to take for 75 req.

T2
unlock psycannons
and
conversion beamer

(They can choose 1 even if they had bought the incinerators in t1)

(The goal is to make them more presentable as a choice option over the vindicare assassin in T2 which overshadows them alongside the las-rhino, and make them a possible choice unit pick in T1 as well as later down the line in T3, because as of now I feel that a flamer on a strikes is better worth taking than this squad in t1and that by T3 there are far better options, putting them all in line of one another will make them more worth taking)

Rhino
in t3 automatically unlocks the ability to reinforce units on the field if extra armor has been bought

(The Goal here is to keep the rhino relevant as a t3 purchase (as predators and dedicated t3 AV units will over power this unit once T3 is reached as expected however that doesn't mean this unit should lose all of its relevance as a choice unit seeing that it offers long ranged Anti-Vehicle. The crusader tank enables reinforcing making this unit not as
appealing to get or keep) (However, the crusader also takes a lot of resources to get on the field- the idea is to solve that problem by enabling it to reinforce in t3, its now worth getting even in T3 to both upkeep your units and give some AV though certainly not as good as dedicated T3 AV, (Cannot reinforce Terminator varients however)

Interceptors
450 req and 50 power
t1, automatically begin with disruption on teleport but has .5-1s wind up before teleport
t2 give the justicar the warpquake ability, which when activated stuns targets in a nearby vicinity for a short duration maybe 2-3 secs,
Justicar also enables the squad to jump instantly.
Grenade purchase as normal

(The goal here is to make them worth taking in T1, as of right now they cost too much to field and reinforce, dont come out at the right time in T1, and have no disruption in T1 which makes them
easy to counter, to make up for that disruption there should be a wind up on the teleport packs before they teleport around .5-1 seconds

Purifiers
remove psychic pulse, and replace with flamestorm (This is pretty cringy for some people, but personally I just don't care for this ability, it is just too easily kited at times and requires that the unit be stationary to use it for a short duration which is fine but,feels seemingly inappropriate. I'd suggest removing that and giving them a new ability called Flame storm which makes the purifiers weapons burn with fire causing flame damage and burning enemy units they come in contact for a duration of time around 10-15s

perks- not kiteable like psychic pulse, enables a larger AOE in a respect keeping in that of their designed purpose to AOE of that of psychic pulse.

Dreadnought
remove the grenade launcher- replace with melta gun
buff the twin-linked heavy bolter default just slightly

Inquisitorial Stormtroopers
20 power for sergeant instead of 25, making them a little more appeasable to buy (25 power for a small knockback grenade and just a small amount of extra damage alongside a speed buff is just not
worth justifying unless you need detectors) the problem I find is that this unit is respectable in t1 when they have sergeants on them, and completely nullifying that with a 25 power purchase when making them truly respectable at T1 seems a bit wrong to me, especially if one decides to get 2 of them, Which should be an option rather than paying 50 power to upgrade both squads


Strikes
bring their ranged damage in line with tacticals/ Csm upon Justicar Purchase, while decreasing their melee making them traditional marine units that are good at ranged and supporting with purification and energy burst while scaling better into t3. Remove psybolts
-Incinerator t1
-psycannon t2
-Digital Weapon (Gives 1 member of the squad a digital weapon that grants psychic damage to that model)
-Justicar t2


Purpose is to make them less costly in t2 when buying upgrades, less general, and more respectable in that of the role they should be doing... supporting from ranged in T2 and T3 while Purifiers, Interceptors, Termis, Paladins, Bro-Captain tank for them. Right now, I just personally feel their damage is just not respectable enough. It is true they're well rounded but they spend most of their time once reaching/after T2 In Ranged. So the melee becomes more redundant than anything. In t1 it's fine in T2, they aren't going to be doing much melee, purifiers, or interceptors, bro-captain will be. I'm just in line for just making them truly good in line with the other marine equivalents at what they find themselves doing most often... shooting.

[Swift]

I'm sorry but I cannot agree with these changes. The reason these people disagree with you is because they are the higher level players who are actually learning how to play GK instead of whining about how bad they are so they are easy to learn. They are not a throwaway faction that anyone can pick up any day, they are far more complex and work very differently than other factions. None of the proposed buffs are actually necessary :/ Since all you have to do is learn how to play them.

I cannot play GK, so this isn't me saying "OMG just l2p" I can't play them for cookies, it is just that if you learn how they work, soon you can see where these supposed weaknesses manifest as boons.

Soz.

[Ace of Swords]

Interceptors

They should just be replaced altoghether for something else that maybe does good single target dps, all they do the BC does it better and for free, it's a pointless unit in the GK army but for the rest they are as effective as ASM an Raptors.

Purifiers

This unit is great as it is and their ability is great, it's not even needed for area control now, it doesn't do FF you just throw it on the ground when engaged in melee and win the fight.

Dreadnought

The bolter does a pretty good damage and the nade launcher is fine, now I haven't checked lately but I would bring it's HP in line with other dreds and lower the cost by 50 req, and then give it back the HP when upgraded to the melee claws.

And both the SS and Sarge are fine, there is no purchasable detector that costs less than 25 power.

[Wise Windu]

I disagree with this:

bring their ranged damage in line with tacticals/ Csm upon Justicar Purchase, while decreasing their melee making them traditional marine units that are good at ranged and supporting with purification and energy burst while scaling better into t3. Remove psybolts

Default Tactical bolters deal 14.58 DPS, while the SS storm bolters deal 13.68 DPS. There's only a .9 DPS difference between the two, not counting Kraken Bolts damage modifier against HI.

Come T2, they can get Psybolts, increasing their output by 15%, improving their DPS to 15.73, and they also get a plasma weapon along with it that deals the same DPS. In addition, their ranged damage output increases more with levels than other squads squads. At level 2, SS get a 7% increase while Tacs and CSM only get 5%. And then on top of that, they can have the psycannon, which deals explosive damage (which deals 100% DPS against all armor types) with higher DPS than their default weapons (14.43) which is also improved by the Psybolts upgrade (don't worry, that bug with the justicar is fixed). That, along with their superior melee capabilities, make them fine in T1 in my opinion, and allow them to scale into T2. And while they aren't as diverse in their upgrades as Tacs, they do have abilities that allow them to support energy intensive builds and deter melee to some degree.

As for CSM, SS do more damage in ranged by default (13.68 to the 13.42 of CSM), and even though the CSM do more with Eternal war, the SS melee capabilities make up for it in T1. And again, their T2 upgrades allow the SS to surpass the CSM in ranged capabilities unless they go for MoT. Obviously though, you have to invest in these upgrades, and whether or not these are worth it in a variety of situations I'll leave up for debate I suppose. But even just the psycannon allows them to put up a decent fight against non-MoT CSM.

[Element]

@Switfsabre
I respect your opinion

They should just be replaced altoghether for something else that maybe does good single target dps, all they do the BC does it better and for free, it's a pointless unit in the GK army but for the rest they are as effective as ASM an Raptors.

I don't believe they should be thrown out so to speak... they are the only unit that can help snare a vehicle currently in the faction and while I understand GL stormtroopers deal with set up teams pretty well, and the bro-captain can tie up a set up team pretty well, that doesn't necessarily mean we should be removing what should in all retrospect one of the easiest ways provided in the faction to do so.

This unit is great as it is and their ability is great, it's not even needed for area control now, it doesn't do FF you just throw it on the ground when engaged in melee and win the fight.

I also agree, I personally just find that the ability can be wasted at times, if your opponent sees you using the ability and decides to opt out of the fight just by moving locations

And both the SS and Sarge are fine, there is no purchasable detector that costs less than 25 power.

while I don't agree necessarily on SS, I can on sarge though, it'd make getting sergeants on 2x stormtroopers a little bit more appeasable in t1, other than for detectors. The reason I say that is now, most of the upgrades go into the bro-captain or the strikes (which may very much be what the intentions are) but even then it seems that because people don't like getting interceptors or purgation in T1, that by doing so at least we could try and can make GK a little more complex than the fast teching done in T1. Though hopefully by just making the purgation and interceptors a little more relevant in that tier then yes there would be no reason to decrease the power cost on them

Code: Select all

The bolter does a pretty good damage and the nade launcher is fine, now I haven't checked lately but I would bring it's HP in line with other dreds and lower the cost by 50 req, and then give it back the HP when upgraded to the melee claws.

Intruiging..and yea I also agree on that REQ decrease cost, especially when it doesn't carry an AV option

Default Tactical bolters deal 14.58 DPS, while the SS storm bolters deal 13.68 DPS. There's only a .9 DPS difference between the two, not counting Kraken Bolts damage modifier against HI.Come T2, they can get Psybolts, increasing their output by 15%, improving their DPS to 15.73, and they also get a plasma weapon along with it that deals the same DPS. In addition, their ranged damage output increases more with levels than other squads squads. At level 2, SS get a 7% increase while Tacs and CSM only get 5%. And then on top of that, they can have the psycannon, which deals explosive damage (which deals 100% DPS against all armor types) with higher DPS than their default weapons (14.43) which is also improved by the Psybolts upgrade (don't worry, that bug with the justicar is fixed). That, along with their superior melee capabilities, make them fine in T1 in my opinion, and allow them to scale into T2. And while they aren't as diverse in their upgrades as Tacs, they do have abilities that allow them to support energy intensive builds and deter melee to some degree.

As for CSM, SS do more damage in ranged by default (13.68 to the 13.42 of CSM), and even though the CSM do more with Eternal war, the SS melee capabilities make up for it in T1. And again, their T2 upgrades allow the SS to surpass the CSM in ranged capabilities unless they go for MoT. Obviously though, you have to invest in these upgrades, and whether or not these are worth it in a variety of situations I'll leave up for debate I suppose. But even just the psycannon allows them to put up a decent fight against non-MoT CSM.

But that's just it, a factor people keep discounting when it comes to Tacs are their kraken bolts, in most engagements they will be used, in addition they have And they Shall Know no Fear, which also increases their sustainability on the field in a shootout, and its not like you can just drain the energy to prevent that ability from happening. In addition while I agree with the psycannon ever so buffing the units damage... it cost another 25 power on top of the 25 for the justicar and 20 for the psybolts. That's a total of 75 power to max out the potential on this unit in an army where, strikes serve the purpose of supporting the main units that will be doing the bulk of the work. That's a large investment to be had when you are trying to upgrade units like the Bro-Captain, the Librarian,etc. This army as most people know by now is not cheap and that extra cost impacts the timing of when units are coming out on the field vastly, if one decides to get those upgrades to max out the potential on a support unit in T2. As for coming in line with Tzeentch CSM, and Sternguard, there's nothing to be said, they should be better hands down.

[Forestradio]

Purgation
-Start of with psilencers and make their incinerators an option to take for 75 req.
T2
unlock psycannons
and
conversion beamer

(They can choose 1 even if they had bought the incinerators in t1)

(The goal is to make them more presentable as a choice option over the vindicare assassin in T2 which overshadows them alongside the las-rhino, and make them a possible choice unit pick in T1 as well as later down the line in T3, because as of now I feel that a flamer on a strikes is better worth taking than this squad in t1and that by T3 there are far better options, putting them all in line of one another will make them more worth taking)

Gonna need to be a lot more specific on psilencers/conversion beamer. Suppression weapons? setup time? long ranged av snare like a lascannon?

VA overshadows them for sure, but you've only got one. If you need more AV, purgs are the option you have.

Rhino
in t3 automatically unlocks the ability to reinforce units on the field if extra armor has been bought
(The Goal here is to keep the rhino relevant as a t3 purchase (as predators and dedicated t3 AV units will over power this unit once T3 is reached as expected however that doesn't mean this unit should lose all of its relevance as a choice unit seeing that it offers long ranged Anti-Vehicle. The crusader tank enables reinforcing making this unit not as
appealing to get or keep) (However, the crusader also takes a lot of resources to get on the field- the idea is to solve that problem by enabling it to reinforce in t3, its now worth getting even in T3 to both upkeep your units and give some AV though certainly not as good as dedicated T3 AV, (Cannot reinforce Terminator varients however)

Rhino is perfectly fine atm, neither it nor other light vehicles (bc, razroback) are meant to scale into t3.

Interceptors
450 req and 50 power
t1, automatically begin with disruption on teleport but has .5-1s wind up before teleport
t2 give the justicar the warpquake ability, which when activated stuns targets in a nearby vicinity for a short duration maybe 2-3 secs,
Justicar also enables the squad to jump instantly.
Grenade purchase as normal

(The goal here is to make them worth taking in T1, as of right now they cost too much to field and reinforce, dont come out at the right time in T1, and have no disruption in T1 which makes them
easy to counter, to make up for that disruption there should be a wind up on the teleport packs before they teleport around .5-1 seconds

Making teleport on Interceptors break suppression would fix basically all their issues. A cost reduction would have to be accompanied by a damage/health nerf. And like Ace pointed out, they are a bit redundant with the BC around, but maybe new GK heroes will be more interceptor dependent.

Purifiers
remove psychic pulse, and replace with flamestorm (This is pretty cringy for some people, but personally I just don't care for this ability, it is just too easily kited at times and requires that the unit be stationary to use it for a short duration which is fine but,feels seemingly inappropriate. I'd suggest removing that and giving them a new ability called Flame storm which makes the purifiers weapons burn with fire causing flame damage and burning enemy units they come in contact for a duration of time around 10-15s

perks- not kiteable like psychic pulse, enables a larger AOE in a respect keeping in that of their designed purpose to AOE of that of psychic pulse.

This would be too good with their chasing potential. Purifiers are fine, sure expensive and easy to counter as are most non-jump melee units, but they tear things to pieces when properly supported.

Dreadnought
remove the grenade launcher- replace with melta gun
buff the twin-linked heavy bolter default just slightly

The GK dread is fine now except for one thing, that is the flamer and plasma cannon are still awful, and the melee version is stupidly OP. Remove Maelstorm from the melee variant, and give it to the Flamer one.

Inquisitorial Stormtroopers
20 power for sergeant instead of 25, making them a little more appeasable to buy (25 power for a small knockback grenade and just a small amount of extra damage alongside a speed buff is just not
worth justifying unless you need detectors) the problem I find is that this unit is respectable in t1 when they have sergeants on them, and completely nullifying that with a 25 power purchase when making them truly respectable at T1 seems a bit wrong to me, especially if one decides to get 2 of them, Which should be an option rather than paying 50 power to upgrade both squads

IST sarge no longer gives the speed increase. He's not an autobuy anymore, you're only gonna want one detector most of the time anyway, and his price is appropriate given what other detectors cost. You can already fast tech as GK, using the BC as a sort of springboard to carry you into t2 without major t1 investment.

Strikes
bring their ranged damage in line with tacticals/ Csm upon Justicar Purchase, while decreasing their melee making them traditional marine units that are good at ranged and supporting with purification and energy burst while scaling better into t3. Remove psybolts
-Incinerator t1
-psycannon t2
-Digital Weapon (Gives 1 member of the squad a digital weapon that grants psychic damage to that model)
-Justicar t2

Purpose is to make them less costly in t2 when buying upgrades, less general, and more respectable in that of the role they should be doing... supporting from ranged in T2 and T3 while Purifiers, Interceptors, Termis, Paladins, Bro-Captain tank for them. Right now, I just personally feel their damage is just not respectable enough. It is true they're well rounded but they spend most of their time once reaching/after T2 In Ranged. So the melee becomes more redundant than anything. In t1 it's fine in T2, they aren't going to be doing much melee, purifiers, or interceptors, bro-captain will be. I'm just in line for just making them truly good in line with the other marine equivalents at what they find themselves doing most often... shooting.

I think the world already knows what I think about SS.

[BaptismByLoli]

The power of double strike squad compels thee to strike down the enemies of Man! It is through the power of double SS can the Imperium live through another day!

Sent from my GT-S5830i using Tapatalk 2

[Wise Windu]

But that's just it, a factor people keep discounting when it comes to Tacs are their kraken bolts, in most engagements they will be used, in addition they have And they Shall Know no Fear, which also increases their sustainability on the field in a shootout, and its not like you can just drain the energy to prevent that ability from happening.

And Kraken bolts is one of the benefits of the squad, that doesn't mean every other beginning ranged squad in the game should have the same damage output or abilities to augment them. That's for the other squads in the army's composition to deal with. In opening engagements, lead with your BC and WAtH and tie them up if they worry you that much; that can even help with ATSKNF since the BC can't be knocked back, although I'd think there are more dangerous units to worry about by T2. There are ways to deal with the Kraken bolts without changing the way GK's builds work. And again, ATSKNF is a benefit of the Tac squad; SS have their benefits as well, namely melee prowess in T1 which can be used to deal with Tacs, but also their abilities with the Justicar which do mesh well with the GK army. They might take damage going in, but they won't take enough to lose a model before they tie up the Tacs and win pretty decisively.

In addition while I agree with the psycannon ever so buffing the units damage... it cost another 25 power on top of the 25 for the justicar and 20 for the psybolts. That's a total of 75 power to max out the potential on this unit in an army where, strikes serve the purpose of supporting the main units that will be doing the bulk of the work. That's a large investment to be had when you are trying to upgrade units like the Bro-Captain, the Librarian,etc. This army as most people know by now is not cheap and that extra cost impacts the timing of when units are coming out on the field vastly, if one decides to get those upgrades to max out the potential on a support unit in T2. As for coming in line with Tzeentch CSM, and Sternguard, there's nothing to be said, they should be better hands down.

It's 70 power, but I get your point. Sternguard are a generalist unit that is unable to deter vehicles to the extent SS are (granted still not heavily), and the only ability they have is ATSKNF, which is still good, but can't support the rest of the army. Upgrading to Sternguard also gets rid of the ability to upgrade plasma gun or missile launcher, decreasing the potential for AV or anti-HI/SHI. SS retain their abilities which still allow them to enhance their surrounding squads, while still having very respectable ranged damage that is effective against all targets.

And personally, I just flat out disagree that they should be better than TCSM. SS cost 245/70 to fully upgrade while TCSM cost 260/70. And while they do better overall in combat against infantry, they can't pressure vehicles, can't support their army, and just have less versatility overall.

I guess the point I'm trying to get across with this is that SS are a solid ranged squad that supports their army well. They may not be better in a fight than the Sternguard and TCSM when upgraded, but they have other things to make up for it. And if you're having trouble getting units on the field because of the upgrades, prioritize the units to the upgrades and upgrade when you have the resources.

[Element]

Gonna need to be a lot more specific on psilencers/conversion beamer. Suppression weapons? setup time? long ranged av snare like a lascannon?

VA overshadows them for sure, but you've only got one. If you need more AV, purgs are the option you have.

I apologize for not going into detail about this. The silencers would indeed act like a standard set up team with suppression. And the conversion beamer like a lascannon team, with a snare or without a snare i haven't began to dwell into. Personally, I think it would be since we only have 1 from the interceptors.

The idea was to have more than 1 long ranged AV options. The purgation would begin as a set up team, and where they are different from the rest is that they can be a set up unit, or a non set up unit based on how you want to play them.

Rhino is perfectly fine atm, neither it nor other light vehicles (bc, razroback) are meant to scale into t3.

I also agree that they aren't meant to scale into t3, however at least the razorback has a stronger means of supporting units by enabling them to reinforce as to where this unit does not, So the scaling potential seems weaker in retrospect than a razorback; And seeing that grey knights already lack a true means of a dedicated T3 tank, and this is the closest thing in regards to one, I feel this unit should scale differently as opposed to regards of how a razorback would act.

Making teleport on Interceptors break suppression would fix basically all their issues. A cost reduction would have to be accompanied by a damage/health nerf. And like Ace pointed out, they are a bit redundant with the BC around, but maybe new GK heroes will be more interceptor dependent.

By breaking suppression that would make them even stronger than ASM in a respect because even they can't break suppression when they jump though they get a short duration of knock back immunity, so I'm not to sure about that, but I do agree it would help a lot against units that hard counter them like "Aiming Watz Dat", banshees, explosive shot on scout shotguns, and even make them capable of dealing quite well with cultist which might be a bit too far. So if that were to be implemented, how long are you thinking for that breaking of suppression. Yea, i'm also looking forward to some new characters as well, hopefully

This would be too good with their chasing potential. Purifiers are fine, sure expensive and easy to counter as are most non-jump melee units, but they tear things to pieces when properly supported.

I assume they would be but maybe playing around with the numbers they could come more in line, It was mainly an idea I was thinking of in efforts to make their ability to me anyways, a little more reliable, You can control them getting into combat, but you can't control your opponent moving out of the AOE. I can certainly live with purifiers now, I just wanted to suggest the idea.

The GK dread is fine now except for one thing, that is the flamer and plasma cannon are still awful, and the melee version is stupidly OP. Remove Maelstorm from the melee variant, and give it to the Flamer one.

I agree that the flamer and plasma cannon are still not that great either. I never was fond of a plasma cannon on a dreadnought, as it must be stationary while firing making it hardly better than a plasma cannon team, and really takes it out of its role as a unit. The flamer, maybe if they introduced some manner of after burn DOT instead of outright increasing the damage the flamer would become a bit stronger and worth taking. I still feel however that it is only right that this Dread get a MM however. the other dreads/ wraith lord get some form of AV and it seemingly weird that this unit wouldn't either... at least to me.

IST sarge no longer gives the speed increase. He's not an autobuy anymore, you're only gonna want one detector most of the time anyway, and his price is appropriate given what other detectors cost. You can already fast tech as GK, using the BC as a sort of springboard to carry you into t2 without major t1 investment.

I was thinking of that decrease in power in regards to how the game is now, in which T1 strikes and IST are really the only viable options ATM, so by at least making a bit more appeasable to buy, then maybe we wouldn't be seeing such a rush for T2 because of how little power GK players are using in T1 right now because not too many buy purgation or interceptors right now. That's where I said in response to Ace that if the purgation and interceptors became more viable again then the 25 power cost would be indeed perfect to only fill the purpose of detecting. As of right now there is just not enough power being spent on units in T1. like 2 upgrades on a bro captain and maybe a flamer for like 40- 60 power. I was hoping that by making it more appeasable to get a IST sergeant maybe we wouldn't see so little power being spent in T1.

I think the world already knows what I think about SS.

Haha Yea However I think that right now they cost a bit too much to reach full potential in T2. 75 power in all, for a support unit without upgrading the bro-cap, buying a unit or 2 and upgrading them... It's a huge investment... especially with 2. And then you find yourself not even wanting to get rid of them in T3 if you get there, because of how much you have invested in to them.

t's 70 power, but I get your point. Sternguard are a generalist unit that is unable to deter vehicles to the extent SS are (granted still not heavily), and the only ability they have is ATSKNF, which is still good, but can't support the rest of the army. Upgrading to Sternguard also gets rid of the ability to upgrade plasma gun or missile launcher, decreasing the potential for AV or anti-HI/SHI. SS retain their abilities which still allow them to enhance their surrounding squads, while still having very respectable ranged damage that is effective against all targets.

And personally, I just flat out disagree that they should be better than TCSM. SS cost 245/70 to fully upgrade while TCSM cost 260/70. And while they do better overall in combat against infantry, they can't pressure vehicles, can't support their army, and just have less versatility overall.

I guess the point I'm trying to get across with this is that SS are a solid ranged squad that supports their army well. They may not be better in a fight than the Sternguard and TCSM when upgraded, but they have other things to make up for it. And if you're having trouble getting units on the field because of the upgrades, prioritize the units to the upgrades and upgrade when you have the resources.

I completely apologize, I thought I had written not better than stern guard and Tzeentch CSM.

And Kraken bolts is one of the benefits of the squad, that doesn't mean every other beginning ranged squad in the game should have the same damage output or abilities to augment them. That's for the other squads in the army's composition to deal with. In opening engagements, lead with your BC and WAtH and tie them up if they worry you that much; that can even help with ATSKNF since the BC can't be knocked back, although I'd think there are more dangerous units to worry about by T2. There are ways to deal with the Kraken bolts without changing the way GK's builds work. And again, ATSKNF is a benefit of the Tac squad; SS have their benefits as well, namely melee prowess in T1 which can be used to deal with Tacs, but also their abilities with the Justicar which do mesh well with the GK army. They might take damage going in, but they won't take enough to lose a model before they tie up the Tacs and win pretty decisively.

Yes, I agree that not all beginning ranged squads should have the same damage output, but as strikes to all respect fall under the marine variant,CSM, SM, and SS, should be relatively close. In T1 they are fine, but in T2 they cost a lot to maximize full potential as opposed to SM where it cost only 50, and that is what I'm trying to get at. cost for cost, 50-50 power SM are at their full potential, and at least CSM have eternal war available for research in T1. So when they get T2 they can reach full potential in an easier manner in regards to power than GK as well. If Gk were given the option to purchase psybolts in T1 then that would relieve that economy investment, in which at least in T1 you are beginning the investment to full kitted out SS at the cost of not getting out other units, like in the case when buying eternal war on CSM.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

Interceptors
450 req and 50 power
t1, automatically begin with disruption on teleport but has .5-1s wind up before teleport
t2 give the justicar the warpquake ability, which when activated stuns targets in a nearby vicinity for a short duration maybe 2-3 secs,
Justicar also enables the squad to jump instantly.
Grenade purchase as normal

Like their own Merciless strike? ,its just a Stun that doesn't benefit em greatly against AC tics or any melee for that matter.

(The goal here is to make them worth taking in T1, as of right now they cost too much to field and reinforce, dont come out at the right time in T1, and have no disruption in T1 which makes them
easy to counter, to make up for that disruption there should be a wind up on the teleport packs before they teleport around .5-1 seconds

Purifiers
remove psychic pulse, and replace with flamestorm (This is pretty cringy for some people, but personally I just don't care for this ability, it is just too easily kited at times and requires that the unit be stationary to use it for a short duration which is fine but,feels seemingly inappropriate. I'd suggest removing that and giving them a new ability called Flame storm which makes the purifiers weapons burn with fire causing flame damage and burning enemy units they come in contact for a duration of time around 10-15s

perks- not kiteable like psychic pulse, enables a larger AOE in a respect keeping in that of their designed purpose to AOE of that of psychic pulse.

Psychic field just useful vs Blobs of Low-model infantries ,not meant for HI. Setups Helfire follow-ups,its all precise timing
But,really their Chasing potential is alry the best,ofc further improved under NFS/WATH/Holy grounds .

Dreadnought
remove the grenade launcher- replace with melta gun
buff the twin-linked heavy bolter default just slightly

I agreee Melta-gun needs to be retain as one of Dread's main purchases.

Inquisitorial Stormtroopers
20 power for sergeant instead of 25, making them a little more appeasable to buy (25 power for a small knockback grenade and just a small amount of extra damage alongside a speed buff is just not
worth justifying unless you need detectors) the problem I find is that this unit is respectable in t1 when they have sergeants on them, and completely nullifying that with a 25 power purchase when making them truly respectable at T1 seems a bit wrong to me, especially if one decides to get 2 of them, Which should be an option rather than paying 50 power to upgrade both squads

ST fine imo, ,still don't see why ST can't have utilities like Sprint or Cloak bck to make em less squishy as tier progresses.

Strikes
bring their ranged damage in line with tacticals/ Csm upon Justicar Purchase, while decreasing their melee making them traditional marine units that are good at ranged and supporting with purification and energy burst while scaling better into t3. Remove psybolts
-Incinerator t1
-psycannon t2
-Digital Weapon (Gives 1 member of the squad a digital weapon that grants psychic damage to that model)
-Justicar t2


Purpose is to make them less costly in t2 when buying upgrades, less general, and more respectable in that of the role they should be doing... supporting from ranged in T2 and T3 while Purifiers, Interceptors, Termis, Paladins, Bro-Captain tank for them. Right now, I just personally feel their damage is just not respectable enough. It is true they're well rounded but they spend most of their time once reaching/after T2 In Ranged. So the melee becomes more redundant than anything. In t1 it's fine in T2, they aren't going to be doing much melee, purifiers, or interceptors, bro-captain will be. I'm just in line for just making them truly good in line with the other marine equivalents at what they find themselves doing most often... shooting.

Whatever Caeltos decides , their psycannons bugged atm. I'am all for Pskbolt getting buffed ,yes their melee redundant come t3. Still,Your overall suggestions are considerations to be taken note of.

[Raffa]

Interceptor teleport should break suppression. It would actually allow them to counter setup teams cos right now they're trash for anything except retreat killing.

Unfortunately I disagree with almost all of that.

Except for giving Dread the melta back as an upgrade.

[saltychipmunk]

I never really liked how the interceptors in t1 had no on landing effect. instant teleport is a nifty idea on paper but there is much more to the role of a jump unit than just being able to get from point A - to point B with an ability.

Bunches of players use raptors specifically for that suppression , which is very useful vs ranged blobs and even for stopping melee blobs without the need to use a havoc. that is especially useful against armies with teleport commanders that out right counter single setup teams.

the asm get knock back which at the very least softens the landing for them selves and can be used defensively.

but then we look at interceptors (the most expensive jump unit) has nothing like that. That is a hell of alot of utility lost just so the unit gets a slightly faster jump. Whats worse is that when they do get disruption it is tied to a lose-able sargent unit that has a habit of dying. Meaning you need to increase your base pop or pay a mandatory req and power to get or reacquire an ability that comes standard to most jump units.

It is not good value.

[Element]

I never really liked how the interceptors in t1 had no on landing effect. instant teleport is a nifty idea on paper but there is much more to the role of a jump unit than just being able to get from point A - to point B with an ability.

Bunches of players use raptors specifically for that suppression , which is very useful vs ranged blobs and even for stopping melee blobs without the need to use a havoc. that is especially useful against armies with teleport commanders that out right counter single setup teams.

the asm get knock back which at the very least softens the landing for them selves and can be used defensively.

but then we look at interceptors (the most expensive jump unit) has nothing like that. That is a hell of alot of utility lost just so the unit gets a slightly faster jump. Whats worse is that when they do get disruption it is tied to a lose-able sargent unit that has a habit of dying. Meaning you need to increase your base pop or pay a mandatory req and power to get or reacquire an ability that comes standard to most jump units.

It is not good value.

You summed it up perfectly, and that is where there are a couple suggestions at the moment as to what to do about that. Forestradio suggest giving them some manner of breaking suppression to help from getting caught by units that easily suppress them on their instant jump like, Aiming watz dat, banshees with warshout, explosive shotgun scouts, cultist with doomblasts. My suggestion was making it so that they disrupt on jump out of the get go in T1, as opposed to when they get their sergeant, and rolling back that instantaneous jump with a.5s-1s teleport charge delay until T2 when the sergeant enables them to jump instantaneously. In addition I suggested giving them their own version of merciless strike called warpquake that stuns a unit for 2-3 seconds since ASM and CSM have something as well. I do believe Forest' idea is solid, I just think there would be a huge impact of having a jump unit that can break suppression, which is on another level from (suppressing a unit but not having the energy to jump out, or knockback immunity for a short duration) All in all something needs to be done to adress this and they do absolutely need their cost reduced to 450/50 for timing purposes and overall expense. Who knows maybe something alongside the combination of both ideas would solve the problem

[Atlas]

I like a lot of Silenze's ideas. My own version would be to actually make Furious Intervention a separate upgrade in T1 for the squad, lowering the cost of the squad on purchase down to 450/50, and having the sergeant cut down the teleport speed to instant like it does now while the T1 squad has a small delay in teleporting. That way, you still have a more expensive squad at the start compared to other similar jump squads, but will also be more effective in some situations and it won't bleed as hard.

[saltychipmunk]

A thought occurred , why not give interceptors the disruption in t1 , but also keep the instant teleport.
The trade off for this is that we increase the energy requirement per jump to something considerable.. maybe 70 or even 75.

and then reduce that energy cost back to 55 in t2 with the justicar upgrade.

That way the interceptors get a jump that is superior to other jumps in effect (justifying their cost) but it would be harder to spam it in t1 without support from something like CA to give energy.

This also makes the justicar less mandatory as the higher energy jump would be naturally easier to manage with all the energy feeding abilities present in the gk t2 arsenal.

just a thought , personally i dont like this more or less than some of the ideas already submitted

[Element]

A thought occurred , why not give interceptors the disruption in t1 , but also keep the instant teleport.
The trade off for this is that we increase the energy requirement per jump to something considerable.. maybe 70 or even 75.

and then reduce that energy cost back to 55 in t2 with the justicar upgrade.

That way the interceptors get a jump that is superior to other jumps in effect (justifying their cost) but it would be harder to spam it in t1 without support from something like CA to give energy.

This also makes the justicar less mandatory as the higher energy jump would be naturally easier to manage with all the energy feeding abilities present in the gk t2 arsenal.

just a thought , personally i dont like this more or less than some of the ideas already submitted

Well, a huge problem with them atm is their cost and timing when they get on the field to Make an impact, they are late to that 2nd/3rd engagement, and there would need to be a delay on their jump rather than teleport energy increase because of the Canticle making that nye on the same as having a 55 energy cost, because of the energy regain from canticle

[Cheah18]

I strongly believe Gk are a good race. I concur with what forestradio preaches in that one just needs to give them enough practise. I think the problem only lies with their lack of AV. Every other race can buy either a cheap wargear or throw out a unit to deter enemy armour except Gk and the ability to do so is absolutely necessary. The VA is a very good unit but is not sufficient, and Psycannons just do piddly damage allowing the enemy to escape without any trouble at all after being engaged.

GK need an additional AV option. I would suggest scrapping the whole BroCap lacking AV thing and give him a heavy melee option. That might not sit well with others who like the 4 weapons already.

[saltychipmunk]

not to go too far into a debate , but there is more wrong with gk than just av ,

Strictly speaking Gk have good av units. the laz cannon on the rhino does a stupid amount of dps and is only moderately more expensive than other dedicated av units (power cost ). if av is what you need that thing alone is enough. just don't expect it to have smart target acquisition.

Even the vindicare assassin has good av dps in the preferred damage vector (spike) even if his hp makes him risky.

Those are two perfectly viable av units that work well together without raping your pop cap.

No the issue is with the entire t1 gk infantry line up (except purgs) and how the various upgrades work on them.

take the ist squad , its sarge upgrade is basically the scout sarge with a decidedly inferior grenade. sure it has no timer(which is not that important since many people are master nade spikers anyway) , but its damage is never ever threatening and it has a minimum range restriction meaning no spikes and it has a short maximum range. I honestly cant figure out what its good at , its much harder to use against melee because of that minimum range and you wont be using it against ranged units like setups or even high dps conventional ranged because its short range will make your troopers stick out infront of your army. And since it does almost no damage you wont force retreat anyone with it like you could with other grenades. Not saying its unusable, but for 25 power it leaves much to be desired.

Then there are the SS. great unit in t1 as a replacement for melee , but the t2 upgrades are a mishmosh of very underwhelming bonuses. the psi cannons cant fire on the move and do barely more damage than the bolters they replace (mostly thanks to the aoe effect and the change of damage type). and this weapon is on a unit that is known for being heavy on the melee side? really?

then there is the psy bolts which only adds 15% dps to the 42 ranged dps of the base squad (basically it adds the equivalent of a single guardian model's worth of dps) and puts most of the bonus squarely on the justicar, giving him the one plasma weapon that also does piddly dps. He already has all those the abilities tied to him i mean daymn.

and there already have been many opinions on interceptors listed here.


other than that,

purifiers? fine
libby? fine
both terminators? fine
the dread? .. appart from the inferno cannon and maybe the plasma cannon its fine
and purges are fine as well though .. they still have psi cannons....

[Ace of Swords]

GK problems are the lack of single target damage and blob control, their av is fine.

[Swift]

Going to have to side with you and Forest here by saying I do believe GK AV is fine, just works very differently to other "standard" AV. Of course Psycannons are not solid but they do anti all, few should complain. Rhino actually stands as quite a good little tank witht the turret and the Vindicare, well, he is fixed, what more could you desire? Especially with Shrouding.

Your point about the grenades on the IST, I can see where you come from, but they are not like Dire Avengers who need a strong grenade, since IST are a pretty decent range squad anyway, giving them something more powerful would be questionable. Not the best I know, but you will end up buying them in bulk so the grenade should be considered extra burst damage than an actual grenade. You often don't see multiple Scout sergeant squads running around and the Dire Avengers get them because it is a separate upgrade that gives them their utility.

As said in the Dread thread, the aoe control is the most problematic thing.

[Element]

not to go too far into a debate , but there is more wrong with gk than just av ,

Strictly speaking Gk have good av units. the laz cannon on the rhino does a stupid amount of dps and is only moderately more expensive than other dedicated av units (power cost ). if av is what you need that thing alone is enough. just don't expect it to have smart target acquisition.

Even the vindicare assassin has good av dps in the preferred damage vector (spike) even if his hp makes him risky.

Those are two perfectly viable av units that work well together without raping your pop cap.

No the issue is with the entire t1 gk infantry line up (except purgs) and how the various upgrades work on them.

take the ist squad , its sarge upgrade is basically the scout sarge with a decidedly inferior grenade. sure it has no timer(which is not that important since many people are master nade spikers anyway) , but its damage is never ever threatening and it has a minimum range restriction meaning no spikes and it has a short maximum range. I honestly cant figure out what its good at , its much harder to use against melee because of that minimum range and you wont be using it against ranged units like setups or even high dps conventional ranged because its short range will make your troopers stick out infront of your army. And since it does almost no damage you wont force retreat anyone with it like you could with other grenades. Not saying its unusable, but for 25 power it leaves much to be desired.

Then there are the SS. great unit in t1 as a replacement for melee , but the t2 upgrades are a mishmosh of very underwhelming bonuses. the psi cannons cant fire on the move and do barely more damage than the bolters they replace (mostly thanks to the aoe effect and the change of damage type). and this weapon is on a unit that is known for being heavy on the melee side? really?

then there is the psy bolts which only adds 15% dps to the 42 ranged dps of the base squad (basically it adds the equivalent of a single guardian model's worth of dps) and puts most of the bonus squarely on the justicar, giving him the one plasma weapon that also does piddly dps. He already has all those the abilities tied to him i mean daymn.

and there already have been many opinions on interceptors listed here.


other than that,

purifiers? fine
libby? fine
both terminators? fine
the dread? .. appart from the inferno cannon and maybe the plasma cannon its fine
and purges are fine as well though .. they still have psi cannons....

Yep its T1 Gk units, and that's what the point of the thread was, to fix that and help their scaling potential as well as make a few units more worth taking because as of now only strikes and IST are worth taking in T1.

However, there is a problem with pugration A.T.M. Cheah. Their incinerators are solid no doubt and so are the psycannons, but is still hard to justify getting them on the field atm. In T1 the ability to buy a flamer on a unit of strikes without going out of one's way to buy a whole squad that can still actually suppress still if given time is is causing some internal conflict. In addition because balance is usually noted in a 1v1 perspective of the game rather than in a 2v2 and 3v3 basis look, one can really see they struggle to be of use in T1 because they are usually just outranged and shot up dropping models, easily outkited because you have to control an entire map worth of points now rather than a lane, and finally pretty easy to counter atm with all races.(Not to say units don't have counters, but that this one seems to be countered easier than others as a suppression focused unit for T1)

In addition most GK players atm would rather rush t2 and pull out the V.A. because he does what they do just...better. He doesn't bleed, he can cause bleed with his sniper, puts a lot of pressure on Vehicles and doesn't have to be close to use his weapons. It's just hard to justify getting them when you have units that do their job already just as well if not better than them. Even a L.C. rhino in a 1v1 is better than them atm because you gain mobility which is something GK lack, a smoke Grenade to decrease in coming firepower, and a chasing A.V. unit as to where the psycannon purgation team needs to stay stationary.

The only way I could think of making them more appeasing to buy is by doing what we've been holding off on for so long and that is making them a traditional set up team, like I suggested in my orignal post. They would begin with psilencers that have a set up time like any other set up team with a gun arc. They however would be different from others in that they would have the option of being upgraded to have the incinerators for a cost of 75 req. Then in T2 their becomes the options to give them a psycannon or Conversion Beamer (like Lascannon (snaring)) that is Long ranged A.V. Now the squad is much more appeasable to buy because of the options they bring to the player based on the situation and they begin as a viable T1 option that is not conflict with strikes getting an incinerator upgrade. The unit would even become a viable choice to buy in T3 to put pressure on tanks form afar and snare them for psycannons that will be equipped to your strikes or termi varients as opposed to now where you wouldn't even usually think to buy that unit in T3.

GK problems are the lack of single target damage and blob control, their av is fine.

\
Yes, though I'd sum the biggest problems to be
-internal conflict like the major one with purgation I just noted above,
- The economically felt 70 power cost it takes to completely kit out a squad of strikes in T2 to reach full potential
-interceptors squad cost> Time upon arriving on the field and not having a strong T1 presence because they lack disruption/ easily controlled
-The dread's flamer/plasma cannon upgrades and the need to get for an A.V. option on this vehicle because it is an Elite class Walker like that of the Chaos, SM, and Eldar walkers

Going to have to side with you and Forest here by saying I do believe GK AV is fine, just works very differently to other "standard" AV. Of course Psycannons are not solid but they do anti all, few should complain. Rhino actually stands as quite a good little tank witht the turret and the Vindicare, well, he is fixed, what more could you desire? Especially with Shrouding.

Your point about the grenades on the IST, I can see where you come from, but they are not like Dire Avengers who need a strong grenade, since IST are a pretty decent range squad anyway, giving them something more powerful would be questionable. Not the best I know, but you will end up buying them in bulk so the grenade should be considered extra burst damage than an actual grenade. You often don't see multiple Scout sergeant squads running around and the Dire Avengers get them because it is a separate upgrade that gives them their utility.

As said in the Dread thread, the aoe control is the most problematic thing.

Yes, I agree G.K. A.V. is definitely there, and really like how you noted psycannons (efficient but not completely solid) because they can be easily kited. The rhino is a fine A.V. platform and so is the V.A. the strikes offer soft A.V. as well, really there is A.V. all over it's just knowing how to utilize it and that is where the problem is. Interceptors with krak nade to snare are not common this patch and neither is the purgation with psycannon squads because of how much so the V.A. overshadows them alongside side the L.C. rhino. If we fix those 2 units, everything should fall in perfectly.

The IQST, while not necessarily good this patch are in all matters where they should be. 25 power cost for a detection unit is normal. It's just that we are seeing their loss of presence/impact in that of ranged DPS with those sergeant upgrades because we can't utilize purgation or interceptors that well in T1.

And I agree on how things are going the dread thread as well, which will lead to "what do we do with the plasma cannon?" Which I will suggest, removing it for the MM because a stagnant behind the lines dreadnought with a plasma cannon is just a waste of resources as a dreads purpose is to utilize its melee/on the move ranged prowess to help lead/support units around it with buffs. The MM would enable it to be completely on par with all the other Elite walkers of it's tier in sharing an A.V. option just no longer out of the gate and tbh. I don't think we'll always see the MM dread, because from the ideas I'm hearing about the flamer, as well as to what we know about the CC dread being strong already, this upgrade won't be an obvious choice pick. I can see all of them being good upgrades.

[saltychipmunk]

Going to have to side with you and Forest here by saying I do believe GK AV is fine, just works very differently to other "standard" AV. Of course Psycannons are not solid but they do anti all, few should complain. Rhino actually stands as quite a good little tank witht the turret and the Vindicare, well, he is fixed, what more could you desire? Especially with Shrouding.

Your point about the grenades on the IST, I can see where you come from, but they are not like Dire Avengers who need a strong grenade, since IST are a pretty decent range squad anyway, giving them something more powerful would be questionable. Not the best I know, but you will end up buying them in bulk so the grenade should be considered extra burst damage than an actual grenade. You often don't see multiple Scout sergeant squads running around and the Dire Avengers get them because it is a separate upgrade that gives them their utility.

As said in the Dread thread, the aoe control is the most problematic thing.

i find it interesting that you compare ist to dire avengers, considering that avengers have the same base hp per model and do 1.5ish more dps per model. sure its not as spiky a damage vector like the ist las rifles are but its still better dps.

the upgrade the dire avengers gets puts their hp only 80 hp below the ist with a sarge while taking up 2 less pop. this is in addition to getting deployable perfect cover, a good grenade and a speed buff ability.

all of that for 10 less power and 2 less pop. The only thing the ist get over dire avengers is the detector. and the t2 warlock is vastly superior in all regards.

and while i have not gotten 3 scout sarges i have comfortably rocked 2 scout sarges especially for nade spiking races that use bunches of melee.

two scout sarges if used right will absolutely demolish an army of three hormagunts / sluggas with well placed frags , you cant really claim the same thing with two ist squads.

but that is inching into territory not meant for ist anyway.

[Element]

i find it interesting that you compare ist to dire avengers, considering that avengers have the same base hp per model and do 1.5ish more dps per model. sure its not as spiky a damage vector like the ist las rifles are but its still better dps.

the upgrade the dire avengers gets puts their hp only 80 hp below the ist with a sarge while taking up 2 less pop. this is in addition to getting deployable perfect cover, a good grenade and a speed buff ability.

all of that for 10 less power and 2 less pop. The only thing the ist get over dire avengers is the detector. and the t2 warlock is vastly superior in all regards.

and while i have not gotten 3 scout sarges i have comfortably rocked 2 scout sarges especially for nade spiking races that use bunches of melee.

two scout sarges if used right will absolutely demolish an army of three hormagunts / sluggas with well placed frags , you cant really claim the same thing with two ist squads.

but that is inching into territory not meant for ist anyway.

I agree they are 2 completely different squads and dire avengers are better in every way other than detection. with that 15 power grenade upgrade, they not only gain a grenade but fleet, and a invicible shield that will win out every engagement between these 2 squads.... I know this all to well from many first hand experiences. Eldar> GK in T1 especially with 1 1 1 build. In T2 with the introduction of purifiers, dread, libby and tons of upgrades on units that werent available like that of eldar, the game gets pretty even from my experiences. And in T3 the only threatening unit becomes Fireprism, as termis and palis will own the infantry in support of what GK already have without bleeding models. However, IQST nonetheless are fine, they just seem to feel the end of everyone's displeasure of T1 GK, because we lack 2-3 of our unit options dependant on your view.

[Swift]

two scout sarges if used right will absolutely demolish an army of three hormagunts / sluggas with well placed frags , you cant really claim the same thing with two ist squads.

but that is inching into territory not meant for ist anyway.

Only Frenchman does that

[saltychipmunk]

yeah 3x dedicated melee is hilariously unrealistic in todays meta , still he is fun as hell to play against

[Ace of Swords]

It's not unrealistical at all, it's just that nobody picks it up seriously/likes playing that way etc, I and torpid also covered that a while ago, it's a kind of play that is way more risky but also rewards way more when you manage to pull it off.

[Forestradio]

GK problems are the lack of single target damage

This. Even so, with the new rhino+improved energy burst it's much improved over the last patch.

On a side note, GK terminator/paladin incinerators are still stupidly broken, it's not just their damage output (which was reduced) or their glitched firing rate (huge AoE burst damage) it's just that the whole concept of a heavy flamer on a beastly power/heavy melee unit is completely stupid. I'd actually advocate for them to be removed completely.

[saltychipmunk]

part of me thinks that the inclusion of a ranged commander for gk would solve some of these issues , however i still think the current implementation of the do low damage to everything in aoe psi cannons and the frankly overkill amount of aoe abilities and weapons are to blame for the sad situation gk is in

[Swift]

part of me thinks that the inclusion of a ranged commander for gk would solve some of these issues , however i still think the current implementation of the do low damage to everything in aoe psi cannons and the frankly overkill amount of aoe abilities and weapons are to blame for the sad situation gk is in

Vindicare Assassin not good enough for you?

[Element]

While I'm not trying to go off topic I will say

yeah 3x dedicated melee is hilariously unrealistic in todays meta , still he is fun as hell to play against

It's not unrealistical at all, it's just that nobody picks it up seriously/likes playing that way etc, I and torpid also covered that a while ago, it's a kind of play that is way more risky but also rewards way more when you manage to pull it off.

I Absoultetly agree, I have run 2x sluggas a pain boy and a unit of stormboyz alongside a warboss with angry bitz and and a Bang Bang Hammer a few times and it is amazing. The sheer terror and melee they put out makes you cringe up inside. I have literally forced off 2 armies 2-3 times in the same match by myself because of how crazy that Waaghhh becomes when it gets started. Back it up with 2x deff dreads and a weirdboy in T2 and it Becomes Ludicously hard to counter but amazingly fun to play and play against. The best part is that if they all die it's ok because their orks, and what they have in T1 their is a better version of in T3.... stupid op