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Altering Sync Kills
Posted: Tue 29 Jul, 2014 1:25 am
by Atlas
Sync Kills are really awesome and the delicious eye-candy that we all know and love, but I feel like they need to be rewokred to both help eliminate some of the randomness and make them a bit more special when they occur.
In the current iteration of Elite Mod, Sync Kills are performed at a random chance. I would have it changed to where sync kills can only be performed either on single entities or on the last member of a squad.
The chance of a sync kill happening would remain the same, but this way sync kills would be more epic than when my dreadnought syncs on a random heretic and falls behind in the fight. I don't want to remove sync kills entirely from the game because while that would remove some randomness, I feel that they are very much an integral part of the gameplay much like special attacks are. My only problem with them are when they keep your unit from doing something more useful in a fight.
How does the community feel about this?
Re: Altering Sync Kills
Posted: Tue 29 Jul, 2014 1:02 pm
by Aertes
I disagree. Randomness is one of the bases of sync kills, and they are a part of the game since while performed the model takes less damage. I don't think that should be touched.
If anything, it could be made "mandatory" when a single entity kills another single entity, like a hero or commander killing another one or a Carnifex, or when a Walker kills another one and so.
Re: Altering Sync Kills
Posted: Tue 29 Jul, 2014 1:15 pm
by Dark Riku
They look cool but I could care less. They can swing games in either favour.
It can be infuriating doing a synch kill or getting synch killed depending on the situation.
I'm all for reducing the randomness.
Re: Altering Sync Kills
Posted: Tue 29 Jul, 2014 2:01 pm
by BaptismByLoli
I agree with Riku on this one. Never really bothered by it but it can screw you over sometimes
Re: Altering Sync Kills
Posted: Tue 29 Jul, 2014 2:27 pm
by ChrisNihilus
Eye candies are important.
How fun is the game to watch is as important as how fun is to play it.
Re: Altering Sync Kills
Posted: Tue 29 Jul, 2014 2:38 pm
by MaxPower
Keep the Sync-kills as they are right now, if you want a game that has no randomness to it go and play Starcraft 2.
DoW 2 always was about flashy animations and stuff like that and I just like the detailed animation of most of the current Sync-kills. ^^
Re: Altering Sync Kills
Posted: Tue 29 Jul, 2014 3:49 pm
by Ace of Swords
Dark Riku wrote:They look cool but I could care less. They can swing games in either favour.
It can be infuriating doing a synch kill or getting synch killed depending on the situation.
I'm all for reducing the randomness.
This.
Re: Altering Sync Kills
Posted: Tue 29 Jul, 2014 4:23 pm
by Dark Riku
MaxPower wrote:DoW 2 always was about flashy animations and stuff like that and I just like the detailed animation of most of the current Sync-kills. ^^
Ow you just wanted to use an ability to win the engagement or at least not die or lose your squad. NOPE, SYCNH KILL.
At least it looked cool, rite?
Re: Altering Sync Kills
Posted: Tue 29 Jul, 2014 5:14 pm
by Dalakh
I'm all for reducing sync kills too, I can't remember how many time my wraithlord took a half an hour to gib one poor heretic when he could have splashed down the whole squad.
Re: Altering Sync Kills
Posted: Tue 29 Jul, 2014 5:17 pm
by Vapor
Atlas wrote:I would have it changed to where sync kills can only be performed either on single entities or on the last member of a squad.
If we wanted to remove randomness from sync kills entirely while leaving them in the game, we could make it a 100% chance that sync kills occur on single entities or last members of squads, 0% chance elsewhere. That might be too much, dunno, but at least both players would know exactly if and when a sync kill would occur, and prepare for it.
Re: Altering Sync Kills
Posted: Tue 29 Jul, 2014 5:27 pm
by saltychipmunk
dow1 got away with sync kills because everything had a ton of hp and you could reinforce on the field , so fights could take 10 minutes , you had alot of time to have sync kills do their thing.
but fights in this game often last less than a minute.
Re: Altering Sync Kills
Posted: Tue 29 Jul, 2014 10:00 pm
by Swift
Yes this helps a lot, never perform sync kills on squad models unless they are last and on single entities, but not every time, perhaps 40% of the time. I do know that depending on the number of sync kills she gets, vanilla tics can kill a vanilla farseer. It would be much easier to judge an engagement like that when ones knows/can predict the outcome, rather than say "This is the dps, but there could be an number of sync kills from 0-8".
And Max, you only play 3v3, so please play a 1v1 and tell me that sync kills don't get in the way of things. I don't want to be a dick
but you should really try that other hated mode out first before saying they don't hurt the way the game pans out since in team games, you can always gang up, severly reducing the effect of sync kills.
Re: Altering Sync Kills
Posted: Tue 29 Jul, 2014 10:15 pm
by Vapor
Swiftsabre wrote:Yes this helps a lot, never perform sync kills on squad models unless they are last and on single entities, but not every time, perhaps 40% of the time.
Is it really necessary to cap sync kills to 40% for those types of kills? I think this warrants further discussion, because making the value 100% at least for squad wipes (and 0% for earlier squad members) would reduce randomness. And the overall number of sync kills would still be lower than before, because squad wipes are relatively rare. Of course, it still may be necessary to include the 40% chance on things like walker deaths and superunits, but reducing randomness in the case of the most common deaths - squad members - seems like the way to go.
Re: Altering Sync Kills
Posted: Tue 29 Jul, 2014 11:05 pm
by Swift
Yes, perhaps I was over-thinking a tad
But anything that keeps the irritating randomness at bay.
Re: Altering Sync Kills
Posted: Tue 29 Jul, 2014 11:39 pm
by Raffa
MaxPower wrote:Keep the Sync-kills as they are right now, if you want a game that has no randomness to it go and play Starcraft 2.
DoW 2 always was about flashy animations and stuff like that and I just like the detailed animation of most of the current Sync-kills. ^^
Re: Altering Sync Kills
Posted: Tue 29 Jul, 2014 11:56 pm
by Batpimp
Dark Riku wrote:MaxPower wrote:DoW 2 always was about flashy animations and stuff like that and I just like the detailed animation of most of the current Sync-kills. ^^
Ow you just wanted to use an ability to win the engagement or at least not die or lose your squad. NOPE, SYCNH KILL.
At least it looked cool, rite?
yes
Re: Altering Sync Kills
Posted: Wed 30 Jul, 2014 12:01 am
by Batpimp
if its an issue in only in 1v1 then remove it from 1v1
taking it that far you can say at that point you can make the argument to remove special attacks too..as the warboss they interrupt and make my stomp useless. it affects my kill the weak also.
its all well and good it affects 1v1 ..so change it there
Re: Altering Sync Kills
Posted: Wed 30 Jul, 2014 12:08 am
by Vapor
But special attacks and the melee skill mechanic arguably add to the gameplay. It's a core game mechanic, and it's possible for some elements of randomness to enhance gameplay.
Sync kills do not, although they are fun to look at and (maybe) should be left in the game for that reason.
Re: Altering Sync Kills
Posted: Wed 30 Jul, 2014 2:32 am
by Torpid
ChrisNihilus wrote:Eye candies are important.
How fun is the game to watch is as important as how fun is to play it.
What? Why?
Re: Altering Sync Kills
Posted: Wed 30 Jul, 2014 3:29 am
by crazyman64335
LOL i find it pretty funny that my video actually spawned a forum post
on topic
get rid of them, they're trash. or somehow make it so units in sync kill animations take 100% damage. at this point they're nothing more than "oh that looked cool" the first 10 times you see them, then you just ignore them entirely and they become more of an annoyance afterwords
Re: Altering Sync Kills
Posted: Wed 30 Jul, 2014 7:14 am
by Dark Riku
Don't make them take 100% damage.
That would make your synch killing model so vulnerable while being able to do absolutely nothing.
Synch kill only possible when it's the last member sounds good. Chances should stay the same.
Re: Altering Sync Kills
Posted: Wed 30 Jul, 2014 8:04 am
by Wise Windu
As far as I can tell, it isn't possible to force a sync kill on the last member of a squad unless it's a squad leader; it is possible to force a sync kill on the death of a certain unit - so commanders, sub-commanders, squad leaders and stuff can all be killed in sync deaths 100% of the time, as long as the model being killed is a unique entity within a squad (so commanders, sub-commanders, squad leaders).
At the moment, commanders have a 40% chance to proc a sync kill and there's a 60% chance for other units that can proc them, and then the chances of each sync kill occurring are split evenly between them. And also, there isn't a unit in the game that has a sync kill forced on death.
So for example, the Brother captain has a 40% chance to commit a sync kill and he has 2 different sync kills, each with a 50% chance of being the sync kill that occurs.
Re: Altering Sync Kills
Posted: Wed 30 Jul, 2014 3:30 pm
by MaxPower
Swiftsabre wrote: And Max, you only play 3v3, so please play a 1v1 and tell me that sync kills don't get in the way of things. I don't want to be a dick
but you should really try that other hated mode out first before saying they don't hurt the way the game pans out since in team games, you can always gang up, severly reducing the effect of sync kills.
Well, I could argue the same way and say that you shouldn't play 1on1s then and even in 3on3 Sync-Kills can be either good or bad. But that's what DoW is about, it is about randomness, not being able to predict what's going the happen next.
Much like in a "real" war I guess, again if you want a game that has no random factor to it either Starcraft 2 or Chess should be right up your ally. And yes I think both of em are really boring to watch and regarding Starcraft 2 even boring to play.
Dark Riku wrote:MaxPower wrote:DoW 2 always was about flashy animations and stuff like that and I just like the detailed animation of most of the current Sync-kills. ^^
Ow you just wanted to use an ability to win the engagement or at least not die or lose your squad. NOPE, SYCNH KILL.
At least it looked cool, rite?
HELL YEAH! Warhammer is as OTT as it gets and I want that "OTTness" being represented in DoW 2 Elite.
Re: Altering Sync Kills
Posted: Wed 30 Jul, 2014 3:58 pm
by Forestradio
Remove it entirely from commanders, it's annoying as fuck watching them surrounded by sluggas or some other unit and they can ganked in retreat because they take a moment to "pause" after each sync kill.
It's also fucking stupid when a squad leader does it just as you pressed retreat so your entire squad stands around getting hacked at. Particularly annoying with shees, raptors, and vanguards.
Re: Altering Sync Kills
Posted: Wed 30 Jul, 2014 7:06 pm
by Torpid
For once I really don't see how this is an issue that is different in 3v3 than it is in 1v1. That said, we all know 3v3 players tend to be more casual than 1v1 players.
Re: Altering Sync Kills
Posted: Wed 30 Jul, 2014 9:17 pm
by Swift
That Torpid Gamer wrote:For once I really don't see how this is an issue that is different in 3v3 than it is in 1v1. That said, we all know 3v3 players tend to be more casual than 1v1 players.
Which is really why I said it, since it can really remove a unit from an engagement sometimes, which is more prevalent in 1v1.
Re: Altering Sync Kills
Posted: Wed 30 Jul, 2014 11:57 pm
by ChrisNihilus
Even Specials alter the game in a random way.
We remove them as well?
What about heavy weapons like lascannon and rocket launcher against infantry, that have only a small chance of hitting, but if they hit they do a lot of damage?
What about the random trajectories of artillery?
Re: Altering Sync Kills
Posted: Thu 31 Jul, 2014 12:17 am
by Ace of Swords
ChrisNihilus wrote:Even Specials alter the game in a random way.
We remove them as well?
Yes please, this game would be much better if they were a controlled ability with a CD that reflected the frequency at which specials were done when they were random.
What about heavy weapons like lascannon and rocket launcher against infantry, that have only a small chance of hitting, but if they hit they do a lot of damage?
Wouldn't mind if they only hit vehicles
What about the random trajectories of artillery?
Nothing random about them, just shitty coding
Re: Altering Sync Kills
Posted: Thu 31 Jul, 2014 1:53 am
by ChrisNihilus
Now you are just trolling.
You can delete the randomness, and diminishing it will only make it worst. Take away the number of random factors, and you will only make the remaining ones more important.
Starcraft 2 have only one big random factor, the pattern of the SCV while building, and games were decided by it.
Games with actual money. And people rage about it.
It's a war game. Randomness, some small degree of imprevedibility are important and fun.
You need to adapt and contain the randomness, create strategies and responses on the spot, or this excellent game will become another spamfest where every single move is memorized and repeat over and over, expecially in the beginning.
Where everything become a little more expectable and stop to entertain the players and the watchers. Like Starcraft 2.
Re: Altering Sync Kills
Posted: Thu 31 Jul, 2014 2:22 am
by Torpid
It would never be like starcraft because the macro is 10x more complicated.
N.B I use macro in the proper sense, not the diluted sense that video game media seems obsessed with using it in.