Dawn of War Codex

This global seems really powerful for T1, I think it really belongs in T2. It makes any engagement after the first few with the plague champ almost impossible to lose, even if you misplay and get caught up in melee, you can use it and probably wipe a squad if they don't retreat instantly. Thoughts?

Sure it's T1 but it costs 150 Red IRCC. So the cost pretty much compensates for it's quick availability. And the only time you can get 150 Red quickly early game is if you keep losing Tics and CSM like there's no tomorrow.

Not true. You can accumulate that red easily if both of you go a heavy t1. Many times in chaos vs SM MUs with Tex we've ended up with 300 red before going t2. In tyranid vs PC or orks vs PC MUs it's more often going to happen and in that case it's very very easy (despite the nerf from retail) to wipe squads outright in t1 with ToN. I agree, I think it should be T2. I mean, should cloud be T1? That's 200 red, so it's even less likely to be used than ToN, so if ToN is fine because of the red cost so must noxious cloud?

IN MY OPINION (see that, i put it in caps)

ToN is fine. The only squad it's really viable on in t1 are heretics, anything else is quite inefficient (seeing it alot on raptors, a squad you don't want to lose models on) and it's their only crowd control ability in t1 for the PC. you really don't want to be using too much melee vs the PC anyway so consider it as more incentive

I see where you're coming from. It's also very powerful on raptors though. They jump in, suppressing everything and letting CSM start dealing damage and heretics walk up. If you start to counter initiate, they just pop ToN and watch the bodies fly, its almost an instant engagement winner. That along with the strong staying power the PC has with worship just makes me think it's a bit much to deal with in T1.

Granted, I mostly just play Orks so that's a really tough matchup in general, it might not be as bad otherwise.

And how you could counter a Noxious Cloud in T1 except with a retreat? Because except if you are GK you have no transports to hide your squishy troops in.

OK touch of Nurgle was nerfed on tics already and while it can be good to use on raptors after a jump to disrupt and surprise melee squads i feel that it is fine atm for several reason.

1st u can simply retreat units from it making your foe waste the red and get nothing out of the engagement.

2nd the pc has the cloud costing 200 red which can be bit crazy especially against guard i feel that if it had a clearly icon people would catch it more often and avoid it, the point im making pc players often save red for this instead on ton especially in certain match ups. The same can be said if the player wants chosen plague marines they have to save there red

3rd touch of Nurgle does not scale well tbh and in late gate isn't used as often due to leveled up squads vehicles and heroes having better war-gear etc.

Even of plague marines who do lots of damage when they explode with ton on u can simply judge the engagement and retreat or focus fire them before they get close this is the case on any squad with ton on.

Superhooper01 wrote:1st u can simply retreat units from it making your foe waste the red and get nothing out of the engagement.

Retreating already means giving up map control though.

Superhooper01 wrote:2nd

I have different experience here. ToN is easier to use than the cloud imo, therefore ToN is used more often as it's easier to get the full potential out of while also costing less red. When you are facing a PC just expect a cloud and keep an eye out for the plague cloud marker. It's usually only good when people aren't paying attention (be it either by their bad micro or you distracting them somewhere else) or it's placed in such a way so that it's not visible.

Superhooper01 wrote:3rd

ToN stays very useful even in T3. The knockback has so much uses.
Combining tics with ToN with another melee squad is just very painfull.

^^especially with the new chosen plague marines and their ability, ToN tics along with them will wreck armies very quickly, even in T3.
But I don't think that ToN is overperforming necessarily, I just don't see a reason that it should be T1, it makes it so difficult to fight the PC in the early game, since one of his weaknesses(usually) is on map control, a good ToN can let him cap the whole map and usually get a lightning fast power bash with his bilespewer.

TL;DR It's a great global and I like it, i just don't think it belongs in T1

It fine as it is, but if you were to make it t2 with what would you replace it in t1?

first thing that came to my mind was a damage buffer global, something that you put on a squad that gives them some damage over time both in melee and ranged? could be good on tics as well as csm or raptors.

Melee DoT with Tics could be a bit too rapey. For retreat wipez etc.

But then would that not bring the PC globals up to six? That seems one too many.

Why does everyone need a T1 global anyway? The Inquisitor doesn't have one other than the bunker which is not very useful in t1...

Some races have a hard time versus garrisons in T1.
Now plop one down where you want... and you can upgrade it later on.
Not useful you say? kay.

It's really not. That suggests you have a HWT too becuase none of the IG squads can exploit buildings properly but them, and HWTs are kinda scarce which makes it even more niche. Then there's the thing with the bane wolf being totally lulwut amazing and such early bunkers stalling it. And honestly to get use out of a t1 bunker you're not going to put it in a position which would be optimal for either a repair bunker or a med bunker come T2.

I dunno, that was just one example anyway, there's probably a better one. I just don't see why it's necessary for a hero to have a t1 global. If it truly is to be the case that ToN is too good for T1 then kudos to the PC for having so many strong T2 globals, that alone makes up for not having any T1 ones does it not?

true its an engagemant winner, but not more.
it doesnt kill stuff...
e.g. bunkers are a way better T1 global.
also Blindness is an engagement winner...

OF course it kill stuff, it is one of the most lethal globals in the game. You just use it when you're about to lose a model so it pops once without doomblast and then you get to explode again with doomblast, that wipes most t1 squads that aren't marines and when you add in raptors and the PC DoT it's really good at wiping in T1. Don't use it pre-emptively before your tics are in melee because that's too obvious and they'll either counter it with suppression/kb, soft retreat back or hard retreat.

It should have a soft-cooldown of only being able to "pop" every X seconds. It's to encourage direct-focus fire on them to reduce the potency of the global. If that isn't working propertly, then it's a bug.

You're right actually, I've been playing too much retail. Elite did fix it in that regard by giving the 3 second soft cooldown anytime one explosion occurred. I take it back, I think it's fine considering the nerf to its damage too.

I still think ToN is borderline op and definitely shouldn't be t1, even if it is 150red.

IMHO it's fine as it is. With the ELITE changes with reduced damage done if is casted on Heretics and his internal CD the ability is fine.

Yes, it does a lot of damage combined with PM or CPM and their death explosion but both squads do relative low damage and they can be ignored.

On the other hand, ToN is great on KCSM, Raptors or Bloodletters, due their high damage and speed.

ToN got an unintentional buff in 2.3 though since it now heal vehicles and structures such as turrets.

I thought that was intended

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hakon wrote:ToN got an unintentional buff in 2.3 though since it now heal vehicles and structures such as turrets.

It has done that as long as I can remember ^^ It did so in retail too anyway iirc.

I can see IG not having a huge issue with this since you have a variety of escape/defense mechanisms, like sent stomp and GL speed buff. But regardless of whether ToN is fine and balanced or OP(of which I have limited experience with so no opinion on), I think that OP has a fair point. How would you counter it with Orks?

Aiming wotz dat will counter it if it's used poorly very hardly. However if it's used properly there's not really anything you can do and there's a good chance you're losing a squad of stormboyz/sluggas to it. Of course, for them to accumulate such red in T1 both players are going to need to be going pretty heavy in T1 and that's not really something I'de recommend an ork does vs chaos.

That Torpid Gamer wrote:Aiming wotz dat will counter it if it's used poorly very hardly. However if it's used properly there's not really anything you can do and there's a good chance you're losing a squad of stormboyz/sluggas to it. Of course, for them to accumulate such red in T1 both players are going to need to be going pretty heavy in T1 and that's not really something I'de recommend an ork does vs chaos.

Yeah, I forgot the name of that ability but I also thought that ToN was supposed to be used just before you think you're going to lose a model, as opposed to before/during the charge towards the enemy.

What happens if you don't have control over whether T1 is heavy or not? I feel that if I were to go for a light T1 as Orks and Chaos went for a heavier T1, I would be giving up map control(because my limited army would mean lost engagements) while I tech, and he'd have an opportunity to just bash power and cap the rest of the map. I'm sure I might be able to sneak around a slugga boy and cap some stuff, but I also can't really see myself winning any serious engagements and always ending up on the back foot.

Also, in a team game, what do I do if my teammates go for a heavy T1?

having used TON on crewfinity to start this discussion I think its fair to realize there counters.

For one he stikknaded my tics which made it all but impossible to continue to use the explosions as defense. It pushed off one squad of sluggas which he sent headlong into my troops. once the sluggas moved back I went back to worshipping my shrine and I got the tics back.

Did it win me the engagement? yes. Did I win the game? no.

as far as your question surprise, I think it comes down to adapting the play style. You know its possible for those tics to at any moment get TON. Just like I knew it was possible that Knob could drop stikks and make the almost irrelevant. If you feel your enemy is going heavy t1 you have to adapt and either counter it hard or adapt to the circumstances. Just like anything else in the game.

I dont have a problem with what the global does, I think its fine. However, it is undeniably a very powerful global, and I don't see a compelling reason for it to be T1. There are ways of dealing with or adapting to it in T2, but in T1 it's essentially an engagement winner. This combined with the staying power and counter initiation that the plague champion has make it way too easy in my opinion to use it to win an engagement and force a retreat, and then go for a fast power bash while the enemy is vulnerable. Especially when you're limited by the T1 options, it just seems a bit too powerful. I don't want to change it at all, just move it to T2. But that's just my two cents

A bunch of people have voiced their opinions and the consensus seems to be that it's fine, so I'll just go and try to figure out ways to play around it and adapt. Maybe I'll try more light T1's