Dawn of War Codex

I am lost as IG when matched with SM who does the fotm 2xVengence dev into librarian build. I play Inquisitor and have little issue with the first clash, usually winning it but the issues start when the devs hit the field and I hit a brick wall. I've tried catachans and spotters but those vengence rounds simply melt my units.

In T2 a Chimera gets destroyed in 2 bursts, Ogryns get controlled and any ranged infantry build gets disrupted by the Whirlwind.

Any suggestions?

manticore + assail, that will render both devs completely useless even with a libby.

And spotters work fine in T1, they easily counter 2 setup teams, you aren't using them well.

Spotters don't counter two devs, in fact spotters alone struggle to counter one. Flamer tacs gobble up both your guardsmen and sniper scouts/tacs and 2 devs will easily overwhelm your sentinel repairs.

Assail/manticore is giving the game away to the SM. I fear you haven't fought a single good libby user Ace... How on earth would assail/manticore counter a libby? Assail is made useless by gate of infinity and VoT counters the manticore, where on some maps you don't even need VoT to do so, just eyes and fingers...

There's no obvious counter, no build order will do it. You need better macro, positioning, strategy... The inquisitor should be flanking, the sentinels de-capping points at the bank. Use the spotter's mortar shells to knock individual squads into your ranged blob to force them off, don't press head-on against a position that they are defending, only attack them if you have at least one unit flanking them or outnumber them substantially or they aren't set-up/behind cover. Save HOTW for hitting the devastator models with.

Yes torpid, whatever you say.

Just a guess, but I think Ace was implying that you should use assail and manti on the devs.

I think that was the implication all along.

Also, for anyone who hasn't noticed the building hate yet, I Pedict A Riot.

Problem is getting to the Manticore, once they got me locked down, they will slowly creep up with the enveloping fire of 2 devs until they can bash power with impunity.

And I have to agree, the spotters can't lock down both devs, it will lock out one, but the rest of his army will be unaffected and shooting back.

then get catachans + spotters or 2 spotters. Spotters are cheaper than devastators

If whoever picks 1 setup team you counter it with 1 anti setup team. If the opponent picks 2, you counter it with 2 setup counters

Nah I have had the same thing happen to one of my members in a 3v3 on Judgement of Carrion, and watched it first hand. Double devs are ridiculous and I have to agree with what Torpid has stated. It comes down to better management and macro. Granted because it was a 3v3 I could swing around and help my guy out. But the sheer amount of firepower the devs could put out was a huge annoyance especially after I go back to my own lane and they are pulling the same BS again. He used spotters, and every other trick for tier 1 and 2 but it was just a brick wall no matter what my guy did.

I think it should be bloody obvious that when I say "how does it counter a libby" that I'm not asking the rhetorical question how does it counter the librarian unit himself, rather I'm asking the rhetorical question how does such a composition counter the librarian unit himself AND everything that he brings to the table, .a.k.a gate of infinity/veil of time...

Was that really necessary? This is why people don't post sensible things on this forum. The very fact that you couldn't realise that for yourselves and not only did it slip past one person, but three...

Do you think when people say "LA is OP" they mean the lictor alpha himself is too strong and that he needs statistical nerfs, such as -> make him speed 4, hp 500, dps 20? And then to counter the LA would it be feasible for me to say "just get a predator"? Obviously not, right? I shouldn't have to waste time spelling that out should I? If I do, it's no wonder we never get anywhere with regards to balance or strategy discussions.

Let me clarify the original post:

By getting a manticore/assail you're playing into the hands of the SM player by letting him get the librarian and consequently a large eco advantage (due to having more troops since the manticore has no field presence and the assail/manticore combo fails due to GoI insta-countering it, as well as SM having low upkeep courtesy of the libby purchase instead of a readnought/T2 asm squad). The SM player then just stays in T2 and baselocks you, winning very quickly on VPs when he gets a dread out followed by T2 ASM. The spotters themselves are largely weakened by the librarian's presence since he can VoT devs away from smoke or (shells if he's fast) as well as GoI squads back if they are knocked forward by the mortar. The IG will lack the req and the VPs to do much at this point.

A better idea IMO would be to get a chimera on a big map, or a bunker on a smaller one (if it won't be susceptible to artillery) and upgrade the guardsmen/sentinel(s) as well as buy some AK ST and a las-hwt if AV is needed, autocannon vs a razor since you have missle sents anyway. Use the guardsmen well with their burst damage from their Pguns and exploit the execute on retreat alongside the chim/bunker to bleed the SM and whittle away at those devs. Try to wipe devs with nades from the AK ST. Use the chimera for map control, even when it isn't supporting infantry it can stop scouts from passing through whole sections of the map, as well as frightened off un-upgraded heroes.

The 2 GM/2sent/spotter build will serve you best on big maps, on smaller maps 2 gm/sent/spotters/catachans may work better, especially if anti-garrison is needed.

That was some proper feedback, thanks Torpid. And getting a Manticore doesn't work, it's a huge energy waste that contributes nothing, since after the first volley which will surprise him, the enemy will be expecting it and won't get hit ever again with VoT running away etc, if I try to lock em down with the Inq (volley/assail) she will just get burst down while the SM player runs forward to avoid the Storm eagle.

How about just getting a chimera and 2x autocannon HWT's yourself? I don't play IG but fight fire with fire usually works..

I did 2x autocannon once, it is awesome but you need T2 before you can go autocannon and the SM responded by making grenading a team from stealth with scouts and it was a very good grenade, managed to 1 shot a squad since it was kinda bunched up.

step 1) get to T2 with resources in tact. This requires that you play aggressively before the devs come out and defensively after the come out.

step 2a) build HWT and get shield upgrade on them (the shield upgrade makes HWT immune to suppression and they will not be wiped by a scout grenade) OR
step 2b) get AK stormtroopers (use grenades from invisibility or flank and watch devs melt)

step 3) carry on with medic bunkers and other IG shenanigans that are stupid hard to deal with.

I'd love to see some replays of this in action. I've found that devs are too frail to be the centerpiece unit in T2, and even when under the effects of VoT, are kinda finicky and can fail to target things correctly. Yeah they don't have a setup time but they still have a brief weapon readying animation they have to go through that, combined with their firing arc, can cause them to hesitate for a few seconds before firing. If we're talking about 2x plasma GM, that couple of seconds can cost a lot of HP, especially considering squads can get off a full salvo before getting fully suppressed.

I would also think that retreating when suppressed, then using execute to stop the retreat when they pop vengence rounds to go after your chimera, would be a pretty good tactic.

I could always do it to you in a match in Elite mod. Just remember to play the Imperial Guard faction, and I or one of my buds will play Space Marines . Trust me you'll be as annoyed about the build as I am.

Now what you suggested about double GM squads with plasma is true especially if I am a Lord General with a sniper rifle, and I have time to buy double Storm Troopers. The amount of DPS that my build will put out would be ridiculous and under normal circumstances I would cream any guy who had a suppression squad still. However, heres the problem I need a sight radius with my army if I want to shoot the shit out of them. And I can't sneak my guys in as those bastards probably have scouts. So my only option is head on, which let me tell you can end MISERABLY!!

You force off the first suppression squad but the other one is still smiling at you like the fucking clown from the movie "IT" and ready to grind your guys down , on top of the fact he still has his whole damn army!! Not to mention that if its "Tier 2", he probably saved up for a Dreadnought which let me tell you just ruined my ranged army advantage, because now I don't have Meltas!! His walking tin can comes waltzing in and I am in full retreat. Could I use a vanquisher turret? Sure but its expensive and probably toast by now.

Those double Devs prevent you from doing anything, I will admit that the damage my army can put out ranged if used properly in conjunction with a LG sniper will be HUGE!!!! But all that time I wasted trying to kill one dev is now wasted because hes still sitting pretty with his 2nd one!!!! He wouldn't need to move except to raid my power after I am gone. And why would he move in the first place? He's got the entire area locked down , and can do whatever he wants.

The only chance I have to end his miserable army is when he is moving, but in both 1v1, or 3v3 he rarely needs to move. He can hold an entire lane in a 3v3, and use the rest of his army to troll. Or he can just bash you in a 1v1 nonstop. Its such a pain in the ass.

Indeed, emp hinted at the real problem. Whether you go manticore or stormtrooper by the time you get 2x storms and 2x PG GM, or PG GM and a manticore, I can get my libby alongside the 2 devs and a AC dread and then T2 ASM and you're build is functionally useless even if somehow you manage to get T3, which you won't due to all the req bleed from your storms getting jumped over and over, you having no map control since you can't push against my devs and the AC dread. Melta + Las-devs with libby support will also make chimera/leman play rather redundant.

It's not like there are no counter-plays, but basically you need to win T1, you must get to T2 first, that way you get ogryns out when he gets the dread out and you have storms to flank around and try to deal with those set-up teams. The AK storms also do a lot to focus down the libby himself, who you do want getting anywhere near your GM as if he does he's going to be proccing inspiration all over the place.

I think as LG is somewhat easy to beat 2 dev squads. But he's asking help with inq

with smoke screen and blast from AS, melta gun upgrade from LG you can easily melt a dev squad with only 2 GM squads with plasma guns before the dev squad recovers from the KB.

About the libby, IIRC he doesnt get supression inmunity ever so a HWT and focus fire could kill him almost instantly. In my experience he gets very annoying only if he gets into melee range of your GM/ST

Have you tried using the IQ stealth armor with catachans? I've personally found some success using that combination.

I'm not really sure, I've not had too much trouble versus double setups as Inquis. I usually go spotters into Catachans, and you can usually knock up the devs several times over while letting your troops mock up any opposition as they progress forward to pressure the setup teams. It's also worth noting that HotW can be used by your inquis to stun the main gunner once she gets in close enough, which gives you more than ample time to deal with that one setup team alone. It just requires some good micro'ing, and swapping back and forth between catachans and spotters.

Also, not sure about the issue with req. I find often, following this build, I'm floating like 300-500 req going into T2, even after the T1 purchases (including any potential wargear/upgrades), so I usually have the STs lined in queue almost immediately after starting the T2 progression. IG eco is really friendly T1 on the req, just because GMs/Spotters/Sentinels don't bleed you. All you have to worry about is catachan's not bleeding, which isn't as big of an issue as it was prior to their cost reductions.

Also, I would rarely go manticore strategy. I dont find the present state of the manticore to be very good. I find it's cost-to-risk payoff is far too low. Furthermore, you're looking at a counter that is in T2 to something that was purchased in T1. Given the power needed to go T1 > T2, and subsequently, have saved for a manticore, it's probably safe to say you've conceded a lot of map control already or are in a back pedal position. And, given how easy it is to purchase a Lib to counter these strikes, you've probably immediately lost at that point. I also can't stand them because they're incredibly easy to take down and very easy to pinpoint their locations because of the map reveal on fire. I'd argue they're the worst unit in the IG roster as their payoff is rarely immediate, and more often then not, never realized. One of the reasons why I'm interested to see the changes to 'em in the next patch.

A real shame my last reading of the patch had no mentioned changes to the Manticore

What manticore changes, I don't see any mention of these changes in the changelog on the balance subforum.

I've used the IQ stealth on catachans successfully several times. Meele one squad and Ol reliable the other one and focus it down with the GM followed by a Hammer of the witches on the gunner. A very risky tactic that most likely wont work vs any decent SM player who will just have the scout sarge for spotting.

Another awesome thing to do is get the Liber Heresius wargear for extra energy and cloak your 2/3 PG GM and suddenly open up from the flank, the burst damage will probably wipe out any SM squad before he notices it and retreats them. Ad in the Inferno pistol for style.

The manticore change has been removed.

Dark Riku wrote:The manticore change has been removed.

Oh wow I had no idea. I was kind of excited for it ):
Back of the line for the manticore again ):

What did they intent to do to them? I'd like to know out of curiosity.

They wanted to increase the cooldown rate of the manticore, but add a purchasable ability that would decrease cooldown rate by 20s. Plus add a general damage and range buff (I am not 100% sure).

Now heres the thing I am a IG player for life and never will play anything else, but in my opinion the Manticore didn't need such a buff. What they do NEED, is a faster movement speed, and the ability to sight invisible enemies (make it a purchasable upgrade). But theres been to many times where mine has been nuked by a invisible unit.

The payoff of a Manticore in a 3v3 has its pros, but in a 1v1 they can be next to useless especially with what they cost . Make it cheaper and add in the ability to maneuver away from huge threats? I could roll with that.... .

In 1v1 the manticore can fire and move back to base, heck it could even fire from inside the base, the range is huge.
It' should in no way be able to defend itself up close.

They are great, even in 1v1. Especially versus static plays.

How do you counter cloaked storms, or cloaked anything for that matter? I have had my Manticore back in my base before and they still fuck it up!!

[EL] The Emperor wrote:How do you counter cloaked storms, or cloaked anything for that matter? I have had my Manticore back in my base before and they still fuck it up!!

A detector! :O (That useless sent of yours that you keep saying? If you really find it that useless, park it in front of the manti, protected!)

Manticore is fine right now.

Having the Manticore be able to defend itself up-close with it's own Detectors, Increased Speed and whatnot is absurd considering how well the Manticore does in certain small caps where it'd be near impossible to beat them due to Base Turrets.

I've lost most if not all of my manticores due to sneaky sneaky and/or quick stuff and I'm not complaining cause that's just just my poor map awareness and macro-ing punishing me.

Besides, a Manticore is a true hard counter against Set-Up and Range Spams with no hope against other avenue of attacks like Mobile Tanks or Teleporting/Jumping Jazz etc.

Let's keep it that way.


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