Dawn of War Codex

Is it me or is this ability very underused? I think its because even though it is a decent global most FC players minds are on the long term in games they know they will have to save red for Terminators. I personally think 75 red is too much for this ability but at the same time if it does stay at 75 there needs to be a good reason to use this ability. Currently it increases both range and melee damage by 25% for 20 seconds which isn't bad. Personally I think it should also add immunity to knock back for its duration as well to make the red purchase much more worth it so players would want to use T1/T2 globals. Its almost the same issue with TM globals being too underwhelming in T1/T2 that they become rare to use. Like drop pods for an example. They are not smart red purchases for the long run and thus becomes a very rare ability. Though the new change for drop pods may change this.

It's not underused at all, it's really a crucial ability to have sometimes, it's just that mostly you don't need it, for the rest inexperienced players don't know how and when to use it, unlike something like ard boyz or use yer choppas which are always effective when used in an engagment, and orks also grind red easily so it's almost never wasted.

75 red is also a perfectly fine cost for it, and the TM global is pretty much OP, it heals all allied vehicles for an absurd amount, pretty much a dred under it is immortal.

Ace of Swords wrote:It's not underused at all, it's really a crucial ability to have sometimes, it's just that mostly you don't need it, for the rest inexperienced players don't know how and when to use it, unlike something like ard boyz or use yer choppas which are always effective when used in an engagment, and orks also grind red easily so it's almost never wasted.

75 red is also a perfectly fine cost for it, and the TM global is pretty much OP, it heals all allied vehicles for an absurd amount, pretty much a dred under it is immortal.

It is underused, its not a bad global but its not really a good one either. Its a decent global that is very situational because of its cost. FC and TM suffer from Terminator syndrome and an ability like FTE could be much more cost worthy if tweaked right. I am not a Ork player but as I recall, Orks gain red over time as a bonus so that leaves more freedom for them to spend red. I think knock back immunity adds a much warranted purchase to this ability.

1 main difference between orks not using red and sm not using red is if orks aren't using it, they're losing. not using abilities pretty much loses you the game, where as FTE isn't even required but will surely give the sm player an advantage early on. Another thing to note is just because something is underused, doesn't mean it's under powered

The ork red generation over time comes nowhere close to how much red they have to spend on abilities and as Crazyman said orks lose hard if they don't use those abilities - predominantly AWD and Waaggh, but this applies to other things such as rampage, stikks, barrage, their globals and the rest of it!

Knockback immunity and a damage buff for 20seconds? That might just be better than UYC considering that SM get that wonderfully tanky squad that can called ASM.

crazyman64335 wrote:1 main difference between orks not using red and sm not using red is if orks aren't using it, they're losing. not using abilities pretty much loses you the game, where as FTE isn't even required but will surely give the sm player an advantage early on. Another thing to note is just because something is underused, doesn't mean it's under powered

That's not the point I am making though. I understand what you are saying and for the most part agree with it but at the same time FC and TM are probably the only commanders that do not use their globals until T3 and they are always end game globals. Because they are not cost efficient in the lower tiers. Many other commander have no brainer globals that are useful like the Apo for an example. I remember back when it used to give 25% melee resist and 25% range damage increase. Now the melee resist part is good but there was no synergy because it only increased range damage, you would think it would be better if it was melee damage instead. Almost all cases back then was that FTE was used on ASM's because it helped them soak up power melee damage in battle a little better AND it increased the damage on melta bombs. But the cost of FTE in that build was 50 red which was good. Imo it was better then what it is now. 75 red just to increase one units damage by 25% is not cost worthy imo when it comes to SM. Most of the time it will be used on ASM's anyway because ASM's are far more reliable units than any other infantry on the field that puts out decent damage. Once you get to T3 you are saving for terminators and that is the simple truth. I rather FTE just be reverted back to its old build to be honest.

you use FTE to allow tacs with rocket launcher to 2 shot a transport instead of 3shot it. That's pretty much it, big thing tho

Not to mention KB immunity will make me a butthurt Apo, considering that he has to pay much more for the same benefit (yes, I do appreciate that it's an army wide buff with the cool damage reduction, but generally speaking only one or two units are going to be affected by the KB immunity)

I would also dispute that the global itself is underpowered, as I use it on a number of pro-ccasions:

FC himself
Flamer tacs to guarantee* a gen bash
Upgraded shotgun scouts when the enemy is too distracted by your tacs/ASM's/hero
Sniper scouts to guarantee* a model kill
PMC's when shooting at heavy infantry to guarantee* model kills
Librarian smite, then move in for a guaranteed* inspiration kill
Plasma Tacs
Vengeance Devs
Lascannon Devs
Lulfire sternguards for when that shoota/guardsmen blob think they can outdakka you from cover
Veiled ASM's to guarantee* a setup team kill
TERMINATORS

* Not an actual guarantee

What FTE actually needs right now is some cosmetic love. Have your units shout FOR THE EMPEROOOOOR!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IMuLiNWyHg

which can be heard all throughout the map, and give it the ATSKNF/UYC global as well. I'm actually super srs here; you simply can't underestimate the power of psychological warfare as I've seen much more use of Vengeance devs, as well as people running away from them ever since the explosive effect change (despite it not being changed balance wise)

It certainly is underused but that's only cause delaying your game-winning unit= bad. Afterwards, I suppose you can go buck wild with buffing whenever you can with it because as everyone has pointed out, underused =/= underpowered.

Helios wrote:It certainly is underused but that's only cause delaying your game-winning unit= bad. Afterwards, I suppose you can go buck wild with buffing whenever you can with it because as everyone has pointed out, underused =/= underpowered.

The thing is that its not a BAD global but its not a GOOD one either. Its a decent global and because it is decent its not worth the risk of spending red on because players minds are on the long term and end game globals that are more of an assurance of the red they are spending. I mean globals that are the same price like swift movement and distort field are clearly more cost efficient for obvious reasons and are just flat out better for that army. I don't care if it doesn't get the knock back immunity just revert it back to its original state of 25% melee resist, 25% range damage at 50 red cost. I would be happy with that. I am just making suggestions to warrant a price of 75 red for 25% increase damage. I am glad that drop pod is being reworked because no one uses it so why can't this global be reworked as well? FTE = decent global but not cost worthy because end game globals clearly overshadows it. People should also remember that FTE only works on one unit and its most likely going to be used on ASM's because ASM's are the most reliable unit that SM has in T1/T2 because they are the only melee squad in both tiers AND they can jump in and out of battle. While everything else is ranged and can be dealt with in many other ways(knock back,suppression,tied up). This is why I much prefer the older build of FTE or a rework of the current one. I personally believe that SM has the worst synergy out of all other factions and maybe global reworks can help change that instead of just waiting for trollminators.

What are you on about "SM have the worst synergy"? I assume you mean between their respective units? Their synergy is some of the best in the game especially in T2 when you get libbys and dreads in one composition. It allows them to counter every other races T3 without ever going T3 themselves.

Drop pod was used a lot before it got changed, arguably it is used less now that it did get changed. Not sure how that relates to anything because as it may have to stressed once again just because something is underused that doesn't mean that it is underpowered. If that logic was true then nobs would be OP and that's just silly.

Although 4 FTE usages may not seem like it is worth the equivalent use of red on a terminator drop (near enough) you're likely not accounting for the multiplier effect. Merely bleeding additional models early on into the game because of FTE can be very influential as that can stall the opponent's coming out of the base for seconds - giving you a chance to gain more map control - giving you the defender's advantage in the next fights, meaning you bleed them even more and retain better map control than you would if you hadn't had the defender's advantage, meaning you tech faster, meaning you get to wipe their gen farm/bleed their models etc etc.... Apply that 4 times and it isn't so clear to me that the later SM globals are better... A shitty nuke or an extremely niche squad? Not saying terminators are bad, they aren't, they just often are a bad choice. I think in the vast majority of games that are played using that 350 red on FTE over termies is generally a better use of red.

I'de also like to note that any damage buff that squads get from FTE is likely to be more influential in 1v1 than 3v3 as a 25% increase in one unit's damage in 1v1 is a higher percentage increase in damage for one team proportionally than it would in be 3v3 because of the tendency for fewer squads to be participating in the fights themselves.

Also the drop pod global is not bad at all. It has very narrow uses and its not something you simply go for when you need like a WS squad because the reinforcment part is quite strong on a race with very expensive models and with squads that are quite slow.

So you just lost a couple of models (like anything more than 2 is already quite expensive for a SM army) and you need a bit of extra AV or a extra plasma gun to shoot at ogyrns? The drop pod is very good then and it is getting some slight buffs in the upcoming patch (a reduction in red or req I think) which is all it needs (but it uses will stay the same, reinforcing model loses).

34, the drop pod is moving to t1 and it's cost is getting quite cheaper. It's gonna be pretty good imo.

And I'm with Torpid on this one. People seem to be equating using FTE as not getting Terminators. The thing is, I just don't think Terminators of either variety is just so omg amazing that you might as well not have any other globals. They have their uses sure, but imo a Predator should be the go-to general t3 unit. I think FTE is fine as it is. SM is hardly known for their amazing globals save Angels of Death and Blessing of the Omnissiah.

Torpid wrote:What are you on about "SM have the worst synergy"? I assume you mean between their respective units? Their synergy is some of the best in the game especially in T2 when you get libbys and dreads in one composition. It allows them to counter every other races T3 without ever going T3 themselves.

Drop pod was used a lot before it got changed, arguably it is used less now that it did get changed. Not sure how that relates to anything because as it may have to stressed once again just because something is underused that doesn't mean that it is underpowered. If that logic was true then nobs would be OP and that's just silly.

Although 4 FTE usages may not seem like it is worth the equivalent use of red on a terminator drop (near enough) you're likely not accounting for the multiplier effect. Merely bleeding additional models early on into the game because of FTE can be very influential as that can stall the opponent's coming out of the base for seconds - giving you a chance to gain more map control - giving you the defender's advantage in the next fights, meaning you bleed them even more and retain better map control than you would if you hadn't had the defender's advantage, meaning you tech faster, meaning you get to wipe their gen farm/bleed their models etc etc.... Apply that 4 times and it isn't so clear to me that the later SM globals are better... A shitty nuke or an extremely niche squad? Not saying terminators are bad, they aren't, they just often are a bad choice. I think in the vast majority of games that are played using that 350 red on FTE over termies is generally a better use of red.

I'de also like to note that any damage buff that squads get from FTE is likely to be more influential in 1v1 than 3v3 as a 25% increase in one unit's damage in 1v1 is a higher percentage increase in damage for one team proportionally than it would in be 3v3 because of the tendency for fewer squads to be participating in the fights themselves.

Why do you keep saying that I am saying FTE is under powered? I am asking for tweaks and changes to make the ability more worthy of its purchase. I have said over and over that the buff that FTE gives is good but its not enough in the sense that maybe the pricing is is bit off. Like I said before, FTE was fine in its retail build because if I could recall it was 25% melee resist and 25% increase range damage at 50 red which imo was a lot better than what it is now. This is why I asked for 25% melee increase with knock back immunity OR just revert it back to its retail stats. I have said this many times, globals like these are always used on RELIABLE units, this is why its more common to see it on ASM's because ASM's are safer because of their abilities(jump,melee,melta bomb) they are not some unit that you can just tie up to keep it from doing what it needs to do. I am not asking for a buff but a change. Either remove range damage increase for immunity to knock back OR just revert it back to its retail stats with 25% melee resist and increased range damage. I would never understand why it was changed in the first place. Why remove the melee resist for melee damage and then raise the price...

Well, you are asking for FTE to get improved since you consider is underused and/or not red-worthy enough, either way what you are asking for is a buff. When you're asking for a buff it's implied you consider it needs one and therefore that the ability is weaker than it should be

Putting FTE on ASM makes them have "power melee" vs heavy infantry squads as well as do a crap ton of damage vs infantry. I sometimes put it on my tacs in melee when they fight CSM (or another ranged Heavy Infantry squad) that are either no mark or MoT. Since their damage will stack with Kraken bolts, FTE and Battle Cry.

FTE underrated? lol . i use em crucially whenever i see a possible wipe out scenario .
FTE + Power sword BC + Flagbanner on VG ,TCSM jumped upon gets rekt within seconds

Bahamut wrote:Well, you are asking for FTE to get improved since you consider is underused and/or not red-worthy enough, either way what you are asking for is a buff. When you're asking for a buff it's implied you consider it needs one and therefore that the ability is weaker than it should be

How is it a buff when I am asking for a rework? removing range damage increase for knock back immunity is a buff? Or removing melee damage increase for 25% melee resist is a buff? Explain to me how that is a buff? Its basically tweaking it. Its just not as efficient as it was in retail. My point was that it was fine in its retail state and became very underused in its elite state. I am trying to figure out why it was changed in the first place. It was fine the way it was. A buff is what the drop pod is getting which I think is a bad idea.

http://dow.wikia.com/wiki/Retribution/For_the_Emperor
Explain to me what was wrong with this ^^^?

A straight up 25% damage increase on both ranged and melee damage is way stronger than a 25% damage resistence buff, in this way ASM and Atermies are way more efficent and it's effect on ranged units hasn't changed.

Pretty much the only time you would get a 100% effect out of the old FTE was with tacts when they would engage a melee unit in range and then finish it off in melee.

Zato wrote:How is it a buff when I am asking for a rework? removing range damage increase for knock back immunity is a buff? Or removing melee damage increase for 25% melee resist is a buff? Explain to me how that is a buff? Its basically tweaking it. Its just not as efficient as it was in retail. My point was that it was fine in its retail state and became very underused in its elite state. I am trying to figure out why it was changed in the first place. It was fine the way it was. A buff is what the drop pod is getting which I think is a bad idea.

http://dow.wikia.com/wiki/Retribution/For_the_Emperor
Explain to me what was wrong with this ^^^?

You say it is not useful enough atm for the cost... so it is UP in other words. You want to make it less UP with a tweak, therefore you must think that tweak will make it better, therefore you must think that tweak is a buff. You are asking for a buff.

I think it was a silly ability the way it was designed in retail regardless of whether it was better or not then. I much prefer how it functions now and think it would be too strong if it was 50 red in its current state, or if it remained 75 red but increased melee resistance/melee skill/preventing knockback. I don't even think it is currently underused to be honest, not at high level anyway. Same thing is going on with FTE as happens with more dakka - lower level players just forget it exists and never uses it, at high both are used rather frequently though.

The drop pod's changes nerfed it because it made its applications more niche, while not necessarily making it WAY better post-change when it ought to be applied.

Zato wrote:

Bahamut wrote:Well, you are asking for FTE to get improved since you consider is underused and/or not red-worthy enough, either way what you are asking for is a buff. When you're asking for a buff it's implied you consider it needs one and therefore that the ability is weaker than it should be

How is it a buff when I am asking for a rework? removing range damage increase for knock back immunity is a buff? Or removing melee damage increase for 25% melee resist is a buff? Explain to me how that is a buff? Its basically tweaking it. Its just not as efficient as it was in retail. My point was that it was fine in its retail state and became very underused in its elite state. I am trying to figure out why it was changed in the first place. It was fine the way it was. A buff is what the drop pod is getting which I think is a bad idea.

http://dow.wikia.com/wiki/Retribution/For_the_Emperor
Explain to me what was wrong with this ^^^?

Tub, Let me get your point straight:

You want a rework. Why do you want a rework? Because you feel that FTE as it stands is inefficient.

To me inefficient = underpowered. If something is fine as is, then it doesn't need a rework, it doesn't need a change, because it's balanced and is beautiful just the way it is - if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

My point is that its current state as underused isn't because of a design flaw or a need of a rework, it's because of player fault. It's much easier to just wait for your squad of death than to remember and time the perfect moment to pop FTE (of which, as I have already listed, have plenty of opportunities).

My problem with FTE is that it's just plain boring Most globals have something shiny and different to make them feel unique. Look at plague cloud. Look at swift movement, angels of death, UYC, hide da boyz... Each one has their own unique character and flavour to make them feel fun and different . For something so awesome sounding as FOR THE EMPEROR, a global which simply makes stuff hit harder seems bland by comparison*.

*Except for the WSE global

Cheekie Monkie wrote:For something so awesome sound as FOR THE EMPEROR, on the other hand, a global which simply makes stuff hit harder seems bland by comparison*.

give the targeted squad (small) inspiration on kill

Bam

That could be terrifying when used on PDevs

That's actually an awesome idea. I'de stand by that!

dude that is genius!

but maybe not on libby/fc/termies or other already inspiration units. as in allied units or your own

Gorilla wrote:dude that is genius!

but maybe not on libby/fc/termies or other already inspiration units. as in allied units or your own

Yo dawg, I heard you like to be inspired...

Torpid wrote:

Zato wrote:How is it a buff when I am asking for a rework? removing range damage increase for knock back immunity is a buff? Or removing melee damage increase for 25% melee resist is a buff? Explain to me how that is a buff? Its basically tweaking it. Its just not as efficient as it was in retail. My point was that it was fine in its retail state and became very underused in its elite state. I am trying to figure out why it was changed in the first place. It was fine the way it was. A buff is what the drop pod is getting which I think is a bad idea.

http://dow.wikia.com/wiki/Retribution/For_the_Emperor
Explain to me what was wrong with this ^^^?

You say it is not useful enough atm for the cost... so it is UP in other words. You want to make it less UP with a tweak, therefore you must think that tweak will make it better, therefore you must think that tweak is a buff. You are asking for a buff.

I think it was a silly ability the way it was designed in retail regardless of whether it was better or not then. I much prefer how it functions now and think it would be too strong if it was 50 red in its current state, or if it remained 75 red but increased melee resistance/melee skill/preventing knockback. I don't even think it is currently underused to be honest, not at high level anyway. Same thing is going on with FTE as happens with more dakka - lower level players just forget it exists and never uses it, at high both are used rather frequently though.

The drop pod's changes nerfed it because it made its applications more niche, while not necessarily making it WAY better post-change when it ought to be applied.

Just because something is "overpriced" doesn't mean it is UP. Because once you pay for it you still get what you pay for whether the effect is UP or OP, its not like you don't get to use it more than once in a game or the cooldown is insanely high. One of the issues I complained about is players minds always being on the late tier globals so they overshadow the lower tier ones. So what I was suggesting was not really a buff but a change that makes sense to the SM army. Did I ever say change the price back to 50 red? I said instead just swap out melee damage increase for knock back resistance which is a change and not really a buff. I also asked what was wrong with this retail build that warranted a change in the first place. I do agree that 50 red is too little but thought that 60-65 seemed more fair. I have played and watch many games with FC players in many different tiers of players and they never use the ability but I keep hearing that people use it. If we go by your logic then FTE was nerfed because of the added cost and not the swapping of melee resist for melee damage? I don't want to buff FTE, I want to make FTE make sense with the SM army. SM is filled with ranged units with only 2 melee squads(ASM's/Van, A.Terminators). I don't understand the melee damage buff in a mostly ranged army when melee resist or something like knock back immunity would fit more into the SM synergy. Seeing as most of SM infantry units are likely to be tied up anyway than imo it makes more sense for melee resist or knock immunity for range squads than simply increasing melee damage to better suit 2 squads and commander units.

UP = Underpowered = Not powerful enough. It's an implicit assumption when you make a claim that something isn't powerful enough, or that it's too powerful that you acknowledge the cost/tier of the thing in question. Under your definition of underpowered, the power fist on the force commander would not be overpowered even if it was a t3 option that cost 1000 req and 700 power, that's typically not what is meant by UP/OP.

Yes, I think the red cost increase nerfed it more than swapping the buff to melee defence to melee offense. FTE on the FC/asm especially with VoT can be very potent at retreat killing squads and vehicles. I think that makes up for the lack of the melee resist considering the ASM themselves get the damage buff, granted the damage of enemy squads is often higher than ASM so the defence is more useful than offence in a 1v1 fight, but SM don't have 1v1 fights anyway with their squads, the offense is really handy for the ASM since whatever they're fighting tends to have their asses on the floor doing no dps anyway due to all the KB SM has. I think if FTE was still 50 red it wouldn't have gotten a nerf, maybe it would have been a buff.

FTE doesn't buff melee damage BTW, it buffs ALL DAMAGE, ranged or melee, so it's quite effective on lascannons/missle tacs, as well as the libby due to more inspiration and smite-damage and sternguards for retreat killing potential.

Torpid wrote:UP = Underpowered = Not powerful enough. It's an implicit assumption when you make a claim that something isn't powerful enough, or that it's too powerful that you acknowledge the cost/tier of the thing in question. Under your definition of underpowered, the power fist on the force commander would not be overpowered even if it was a t3 option that cost 1000 req and 700 power, that's typically not what is meant by UP/OP.

Yes, I think the red cost increase nerfed it more than swapping the buff to melee defence to melee offense. FTE on the FC/asm especially with VoT can be very potent at retreat killing squads and vehicles. I think that makes up for the lack of the melee resist considering the ASM themselves get the damage buff, granted the damage of enemy squads is often higher than ASM so the defence is more useful than offence in a 1v1 fight, but SM don't have 1v1 fights anyway with their squads, the offense is really handy for the ASM since whatever they're fighting tends to have their asses on the floor doing no dps anyway due to all the KB SM has. I think if FTE was still 50 red it wouldn't have gotten a nerf, maybe it would have been a buff.

FTE doesn't buff melee damage BTW, it buffs ALL DAMAGE, ranged or melee, so it's quite effective on lascannons/missle tacs, as well as the libby due to more inspiration and smite-damage and sternguards for retreat killing potential.

After rereading my first post it does seem like I am asking for a buff but that really wasn't what I wanted to do. I was more focused on just changing around certain effects to better benefit the SM army in my own opinion. I just should have worded it properly. Also, I know that FTE buffs all damage but isn't it the same as just saying it buffs both range and melee damage? I just don't see where it was a good idea to change melee resist for melee damage which is basically what the change is. I say this because it benefits a mostly ranged army like SM more to have a defensive/offensive ability so when your tacs are being tied up by say Banshee's they won't get torn to shreds much faster or when you are in retreat it could save units from being wiped. At the same time it gives a decent range buff to support when you want to be offensive for what ever range unit you desire. You can also use it on ASM's to grant them more melee defense while jumping into a dangerous spot to throw a meltabomb that is granted a 25% buff from range damage.

Cheekie Monkie wrote:

Gorilla wrote:dude that is genius!

but maybe not on libby/fc/termies or other already inspiration units. as in allied units or your own

Yo dawg, I heard you like to be inspired...

bahahaha