Vanguard Power Fist

[Cheekie Monkie]

Does anyone else find this upgrade rather lackluster and/or overpriced?

It doesn't do enough damage to engage with walkers, let alone ones with melee resistance and even veiled Vanguards have a hard time beating tanks, so much so that I'd rather point them at something else. Of course, you also lose the ability to beat late game infantry face by the loss of the thunder hammer.

The only time which I'd consider the upgrade as worthwhile is when you're taking down light melee walkers like the BC, Deff Dread or Tyrant Guard, but by the time you get Vanguards you'll have bigger things on your plate than those bunch.

Is it possible to give one guy a melta pistol or at least something that's not a big game changer but will help in the AV department? On the other hand, if we don't want a jumping, tanky, anti all unit, perhaps the power cost could be toned down a bit?

Yes, I know that the big reason why you take vanguards is to take infantry down and that the power fist is more of a clutch "oh shit, I didn't expect a tank AND nobs!", but my argument is that the upgrade is so niche, situational and so *meh* that I'd almost always rather spend my power elsewhere.

[Torpid]

Yeah it is a bit too pricy. A decrease in the power cost would be justified and a melta pistol too. Obviously it shouldn't be soloing tanks even with VoT, but it is very lackluster now for a t3 upgrade on such an expensive squad.

[Sub_Zero]

A melta pistol is definitely the thing that should be added.

[Black Relic]

I don't think that getting the powerfist should remove the Merciless Strike from them either.

[Wise Windu]

It doesn't remove Merciless Strike.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

it does make em like Raptors w AC in t2 ,except no drawbacks & permanent Upgrade to apply pressure on Transports,its just slightly overpriced . Other than that,their default TH Sgt passive KB disruption is better

[ShowMeMagik]

Tanks!!! That is my two cents.

The power fist upgrade on Vans gives you have a realiable way to get in behind tanks and hit rear armour. Let your lascannon fire and hit the front and then use your Vans to chase them down. You jump in behind and then the tank either gets a fist up the ass or it turns round and gets hit in the rear by the lascannon. You can also use the second jump to get the kill to prevent those annoying it got away with 10 HP scenarios. (and yes I know that means diving into enemy territory alone)

Yes you are losing an infantry killing tool (the squad still has a lightning claw and two powr swords) but gaining a big tank harrasser.

The only other unit I can think of that can reliably get rear armour with a weapon like a power fist is the FC

[Dark Riku]

it does make em like Raptors w AC in t2 ,except no drawbacks & permanent Upgrade to apply pressure on Transports,its just slightly overpriced .

No drawbacks? Are you saying that being available in T1 (sarge T2), being cheaper, etc are drawbacks for Raptors?
While for Vanguards being only available in T3, costing a shitton, losing your ams and levels on them and the possibility or already upgraded meltabombs and losing your thunderhammer, etc are good things? °_O

The only other unit I can think of that can reliably get rear armour with a weapon like a power fist is the FC

wse power blades, terminators, ...

[Torpid]

The only other unit I can think of that can reliably get rear armour with a weapon like a power fist is the FC

wse power blades, terminators, ...

Or raptors... Which everyone seems fine with...

[Dark Riku]

Or raptors... Which everyone seems fine with...

Not everyone. I certainly don't think they need that kind of AV on their jump squad. Chaos has enough sources of AV.
At least it helps me in my 1v1 line-up I guess? I also don't think stormboys should have it. Doesn't make much sense to me. :/

[Forestradio]

+50 hp to the sarge+melta pistol would be nice, imo losing that extra dps vs (S)HI as well as potential passive disruption can really handicap vans when they get this upgrade.

[BaptismByLoli]

I have to agree with Riku. Stormboyz are slow, bleed so quick and easily that I don't see any need for them to have Heavy_Melee when their chasing potential, especially vs Transports sucks.

[Torpid]

I like stormboys having heavy melee as:

1) It gives them more sources of AV as they are somewhat lackng in T2 and struggle dearly with killing transports such as razorbacks or falcons, especially if they are not the Mek.

2) The heavy melee on the stormboy nob makes the squad not as ridiculous as they would be if he had power melee at wiping things like devastators/havocs or just tacs/csm or similar HI models in retreat.

I dislike the heavy melee on raptors because chaos has plenty of AV in T2, albeit expensive AV and vehicle dependent AV they do. Unlike orks however they have a much stronger T1 mainly due to havocs, but now they can have raptors and havocs. It makes their T1 so strong. I don't think raptors should transition into an AV unit so cost effectively (note raptors get their AV in T2 out for 25 power whereas ASM realistically are going to need both their sergeant and the melta bomb upgrade and so it costs 50 power) because something ought to compensate for how good they are in T1. If we go back to stormboyz they're pretty dire in T1, but in T2 this is compensated by the fact that the stormboy nob is absolutely brilliant and very versatile with his heavy melee.

Going back to raptors let's not forget about their ability to switch to melta guns/melta bombs in T3. This is even more versatility they have and it screws over some MUs like eldar. I wonder if the plague marine snare + raptor melta causes 100% immobilisation? If it does I imagine that would be very strong vs a carnifex spam too or even a SL. These raptors grant something extremely strong for chaos - namely a hard suppression counter independent of your hero when the chaos T1 was pretty much perfect outside of that and so it makes their T1 tremendously strong, yet there is no down-side. They have versatile AV in T2 and a different form of versatile AV in T3. Raptors are more versatile than ASM and most SM squads except tacs (don't forget their ability). That's dumb given the composition they fit into.

[Broodwich]

Melta pistol all the way!

I think the deal with raptors is they aren't really needed, as torpid said chaos was designed around not having jump troops and did just fine. So now you have a unit that doesn't really do much extra with lots of upkeep on the field that doesn't even give you transitional av. Enter the fist

[Sneery_Thug]

Yeah it is a bit too pricy. A decrease in the power cost would be justified and a melta pistol too. Obviously it shouldn't be soloing tanks even with VoT, but it is very lackluster now for a t3 upgrade on such an expensive squad.

+1. Yeah, I know, I don't add anything "instrumental" by just a reposting Torpid's (apastrophe before s?) post. But I had this reflection too -just I'm a noob and prefer rater to "listen" than to post myself.

[Nurland]

Drop the cost to 20 or 25 power and give a melta pistol for the fister. That would be my solution

[saltychipmunk]

why not just give them the fist for free in addition to the hammer, this is a t3 upgrade after all, one that is limited to 1 unit.


if dps is an issue , then nerf the damage of both by a small amount.

[BaptismByLoli]

I'd take power_weapons on my Vanguards everyday to help keep the pressure on (S)HI rather than having 1 heavy_melee and 3 power_melee. If anything, I'm with the Melta Pistol idea but against the one which replaces their default weapons

I literally get them only against other HI races or Nobz. Other than that, I love ASM Melta Bombs vs durable or fast vehicles.

[lolzarz]

fister.

IT'S. A. DAMN. SERGEANT.

The innuendo is real in this one.

[BaptismByLoli]

I don't get it

Sent from my GT-S5830i using Tapatalk 2

[Cheekie Monkie]

fister.

IT'S. A. DAMN. SERGEANT.

The innuendo is real in this one.

If you fist that vehicle in the rear armour, you might have enough red on your hands for you to blow your nuke right in their faces.

[saltychipmunk]

I'd take power_weapons on my Vanguards everyday to help keep the pressure on (S)HI rather than having 1 heavy_melee and 3 power_melee. If anything, I'm with the Melta Pistol idea but against the one which replaces their default weapons

I literally get them only against other HI races or Nobz. Other than that, I love ASM Melta Bombs vs durable or fast vehicles.

then how about a slight variation, instead of replacing the thunder hammer , the fist replaces one of the other member weapons? that way they still get that nice power melee and are a threat to vehicles.

I doubt the fist will be worth it unless the unit inherits it some how , seeing as you aptly pointed out the melta is cheap and very effective alternative

[Ace of Swords]

I'd take power_weapons on my Vanguards everyday to help keep the pressure on (S)HI rather than having 1 heavy_melee and 3 power_melee. If anything, I'm with the Melta Pistol idea but against the one which replaces their default weapons

I literally get them only against other HI races or Nobz. Other than that, I love ASM Melta Bombs vs durable or fast vehicles.

then how about a slight variation, instead of replacing the thunder hammer , the fist replaces one of the other member weapons? that way they still get that nice power melee and are a threat to vehicles.

I doubt the fist will be worth it unless the unit inherits it some how , seeing as you aptly pointed out the melta is cheap and very effective alternative

It would be too good, a squad that does everything? no thx

For me, I use ASM an anti blob and setups, so the powerfist the rare times I used it to do some extra damage to tanks was alright, but it's simply so late game I wouldn't dream of using it to counter potential termies, dreds, or the most common late game walkers the AVA and GUO, which are still better countered with the thunderhammer, so all in all I mostly see it as out of place upgrade, I'd rather see it replaced with something that further enhances their anti HI/SHI abilities, although I guess that pf with a melta pistol would do a pretty good job at dealing with tanks.

[Dark Riku]

If you fist that vehicle in the rear armour, you might have enough red on your hands for you to blow your nuke right in their faces.

Batman approves.

[Nurland]

Fisting a tank in the rear armor usually also leads to them exploding all over the place and making a giant mess.

[Phoenix]

Give the vanguard power fist flesh over steel

[saltychipmunk]

Im a little confused by aces statement about a unit that does everything . aren't there other units in the game that have similar capabilities + or - a few things.

purifiers have a power melee / melee heavy setup with more hp and a much better chase potential.
terminators can jump and melee against vehicles and infantry alike

banshees have both damage types (but are admittedly fragile)

raptors have the fist in t2.

and vanilla asm gain access to av and power melee as well.

So it seems to me that there are plenty of examples of units doing similar things , some doing more of one thing and less of another true but there are still examples.

and what exactly would having the fist replace some other than the hammer add besides them maintaining the hammers characteristics ?

the current version with the fist replacing the hammer would still have 3 power melee models.
and my proposed version replacing something else would have 3 power melee as well. It is not like vanguards get battle cry and can spam hammer slams.

[Forestradio]

You could even rework the upgrade entirely, replace it with "Master Crafted Power Weapons" or whatever.

100/35.

Gives the two power sword marines a dps increase, from 30 to 34 (15% increase)
Adds a small splash damage to the lightning claw marine. (5 per hit? 10 per hit? Clawminators do 12 splash per hit for reference)
Gives the sarge a power fist.

[Ar-Aamon]

No thanks.

[Ace of Swords]

purifiers have a power melee / melee heavy setup with more hp and a much better chase potential.

I don't think purifiers ever killed a vehicle lol

terminators can jump and melee against vehicles and infantry alike

Yeah, and that marks a death sentence for terminators, beside their dps isn't high enough to kill a dred or a microed transport/tank, only ass termies have a chance, but even those get rekt by mok csm,blood letters, shees etc.

banshees have both damage types (but are admittedly fragile)

Shees don't have a jump pack and FoF reduces their damage, and since the walker changes they can't solo melee walkers anymore

raptors have the fist in t2.

But they get raped by any dedicated melee, asm still have a chance between merciless strike and their jump distruption

and vanilla asm gain access to av and power melee as well.

A single model with power melee and an extra cost for a melta that will never solo a vehicle, that functions as support for further AV, which also requires more micro than simply point and click once.

So it seems to me that there are plenty of examples of units doing similar things , some doing more of one thing and less of another true but there are still examples.

and what exactly would having the fist replace some other than the hammer add besides them maintaining the hammers characteristics ?

None of your examples are even close to a unit that can potentially solo other dedicated melee squads, is an hard counter to setup teams, can retreat has power melee on all models + heavy melee and is "cheap" to reinforce.

So no, I don't want more dumb units that can do everything and better than dedicated units with a purpose.