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Mekboy More Dakka Global
Posted: Wed 29 Oct, 2014 1:30 am
by Dark Riku
Could we please change the More Dakka global from the Mekboy?
For just 50 red this global can give you a squad wipe that requires no micro at all other than targeting a shoota squad with the global and attacking an enemy unit. This problem mainly happens when the global is used against units with a low model count or against (sub-)commanders. Due to the many knockbacks the units just can't respond or even retreat making them get wiped for no good reason. On the other hand if you are extremely unlucky with your shootas the knockback effect might not even happen as often as you like.
The effect is too random if you ask me.
I would suggest removing the knockback effect. Giving more damage to Orks who already do high damage should be good enough for a mere 50 red. If Caeltos or anyone else feels that the global needs an extra trait I would suggest making the targeted squad do 100% knockback for a second. This way the ability will work reliable and won't infuriate either the user or the one it's being used on since you know exactly what to expect. This will also mean a Mek player will have to pay a little bit more attention when using this global as you don't want to waste the knockback effect by using it on a squad that is just reloading.
Re: Mekboy More Dakka Global
Posted: Wed 29 Oct, 2014 8:43 am
by Sub_Zero
That is a very annoying ability. It definitely needs to require more red to use (orks generate it and hence every their global HAS to be more expensive than similar abilities of other races) and the cooldown should be longer. That is my take on that.
I cannot be certain about its strength. It is like his only useful and unique global ability if you have infantry-based army.
Re: Mekboy More Dakka Global
Posted: Wed 29 Oct, 2014 9:44 am
by lolzarz
Sub_Zero wrote:That is a very annoying ability. It definitely needs to require more red to use (orks generate it and hence every their global HAS to be more expensive than similar abilities of other races) and the cooldown should be longer. That is my take on that.
I cannot be certain about its strength. It is like his only useful and unique global ability if you have infantry-based army.
Orks generate it, but they need red for a LOT more stuff. Swamp 'em, Frenzy, Luv Da Dakka, and lots of other unit abilities require red for them, where a similar ability (embolden) would require energy.
Re: Mekboy More Dakka Global
Posted: Wed 29 Oct, 2014 12:01 pm
by Torpid
I've spoke about this global before and it is too good. It's quite ridiculous vs spellcasters and really in general vs everything. It instantly makes melee units lose fights since they lose so much potential damage by being knocked over (especially if they have few models like asm or banshees) and it also makes shootas be able to deal with set-up teams too easily when set-up teams are meant to be the counter to them - it's not like the mek himself has trouble vs set-up teams anyway due to his teleport.
I would rather it was brought down to 30 red and was just a damage buff tbh. Yes this will draw comparison's to FTE but with FTE the squad you use it on cannot be forced off as quickly as any ork squad not to mention this is ranged only so it only affects shoota/lootas/gitz (maybe it buffs stikkbomb damage?), not much variety there and shootas also lose models very fast further making the damage buff not as effective as if you used it on sternguard for example.
Sub_Zero wrote:That is a very annoying ability. It definitely needs to require more red to use (orks generate it and hence every their global HAS to be more expensive than similar abilities of other races) and the cooldown should be longer. That is my take on that.
I cannot be certain about its strength. It is like his only useful and unique global ability if you have infantry-based army.
1) Their units are balanced around needing to use lots of abilities that require red. For that reason their globals don't need to cost more than they would for another race to use them despite the very small natural generation of red they get.
2) The warbosses globals, as well as the kommando knob's are useless if you have a vehicle based composition. When assessing the balance of those globals though we take into account that warbosses will favour infantry based plays where meks favour vehicle based plays, assuming they are actually better for each hero.
Re: Mekboy More Dakka Global
Posted: Wed 29 Oct, 2014 3:38 pm
by Cyris
My thoughts:
1- If knockdown didn't block retreat, this would largely be ok. But it does
2- Even after the last nerf round (decrease KD time to just 6s?) this skill is still nuts.
2a- It's specifically nuts against low model armies and melee commanders not KD immune, and only "good" against everything else.
3- Getting a much more noticeable FX on the buffed unit or their target would go a LONG way (like UYC had added). It's a very hidden thing that happens (yellow circle among other yellow circles), then suddenly your commander is on the ground and likely dead, and you don't know why.
4- The % chance is very orky, but I'd rather it be consistent.
5- I'd happily pay 75 Red for the current version of this. And yes, this is in the context of orks getting more red but needing to spend it more.
6- I really like how it's the Meks version of UYC, and love the options it adds to his army.
7- It all really comes back to point number 1 in my mind. Chain KD not allowing retreat is so unfortunate. This T1 ability shouldn't allow me to 100 to 0 a support commander with ranged fire. I watch it happening, and KNOW the other player has the unit selected and is mashing on Z to no avail. I've gleefully done it to my enemies and I've been on the receiving end. Maybe it could give an incomming ranged damage reduction buff to units who are knocked down? I dunno...
Re: Mekboy More Dakka Global
Posted: Wed 29 Oct, 2014 4:55 pm
by Vapor
Yeah, continuous ranged KB is broken thanks to the no-retreat issue, so any ability that causes it (More Dakka, heavy gauge death spinner, etc.) should be changed if possible.
Reverting More Dakka to a straight up dmg buff seems a bit boring. How about make it reduce weapon cooldown and reload times by 50%? Similar result for a lot of common units, but that way it would at least make it sound like my shoota boyz are going all out with the dakka...
Re: Mekboy More Dakka Global
Posted: Wed 29 Oct, 2014 5:47 pm
by Batpimp
a one time knockback (like a shotgun blast without the suppression) seems plenty with an increased dmg boost for a duration. the unstoppable knockback is my biggest gripe.
Re: Mekboy More Dakka Global
Posted: Thu 30 Oct, 2014 3:18 am
by Broodwich
Cyris wrote:My thoughts:
1- If knockdown didn't block retreat, this would largely be ok. But it does
2- Even after the last nerf round (decrease KD time to just 6s?) this skill is still nuts.
2a- It's specifically nuts against low model armies and melee commanders not KD immune, and only "good" against everything else.
3- Getting a much more noticeable FX on the buffed unit or their target would go a LONG way (like UYC had added). It's a very hidden thing that happens (yellow circle among other yellow circles), then suddenly your commander is on the ground and likely dead, and you don't know why.
4- The % chance is very orky, but I'd rather it be consistent.
5- I'd happily pay 75 Red for the current version of this. And yes, this is in the context of orks getting more red but needing to spend it more.
6- I really like how it's the Meks version of UYC, and love the options it adds to his army.
7- It all really comes back to point number 1 in my mind. Chain KD not allowing retreat is so unfortunate. This T1 ability shouldn't allow me to 100 to 0 a support commander with ranged fire. I watch it happening, and KNOW the other player has the unit selected and is mashing on Z to no avail. I've gleefully done it to my enemies and I've been on the receiving end. Maybe it could give an incomming ranged damage reduction buff to units who are knocked down? I dunno...
Re: Mekboy More Dakka Global
Posted: Thu 30 Oct, 2014 11:17 am
by Superhooper01
I use this and i have to say is bit silly the randomness of the knock-backs as well as the unit that is targets being knocked over is a huge pain for people. Think the damage it gives is fine but needs to be changed to stop people using it to solo certain commanders etc
Re: Mekboy More Dakka Global
Posted: Thu 30 Oct, 2014 2:47 pm
by Cheekie Monkie
Whilst I do agree with the posts made here I do find it ironic that people want to give More Dakka less dakka.
Re: Mekboy More Dakka Global
Posted: Fri 31 Oct, 2014 5:58 pm
by Black Relic
How about instead of a straight up damage buff Torpid, we look at it in a different way? Like Reduced Cooldown and weapon reload time for 15 seconds. And maybe effect the cooldown of the stikbombs abilities?
When the global is casted it effects all (not the squad) the ork as an individual(so even of an ork shoota is part of a squad effected, if he isn't in the area where to global is casted he isn't effected by the buff).
Area effected: 10
Cooldown reduction: 75%
Reload reduction 25%
Red Cost: 75 ( or 80)
Maybe something like that would work.
Re: Mekboy More Dakka Global
Posted: Fri 31 Oct, 2014 6:32 pm
by Torpid
The reduced cooldown/reload time sounds nice. Although I'de just like to do whatever leads to the least RNG.
Re: Mekboy More Dakka Global
Posted: Fri 31 Oct, 2014 8:15 pm
by Arbit
Cooldown/reload reduction sounds nice, but I kind of hate how unevenly it gets applied to units. You have to comb through the codex to find which units it's actually good on and which ones it's a waste. For instance, using Black Relic's numbers (cool reduction of 75% and reload duration reduction of 25%) you end up giving shoota squads a 33% buff which is better than the current damage buff but it gives a rather lackluster 13% buff to deffguns, both regular and beamy varieties.
The principle factor at play being units with a longer cooldown will benefit more from the buff. For some reason that completely escapes me, units with a longer reload duration do not receive a greater benefit than those with shorter reload durations, which makes me wonder if my dps calcs are off but if I punch in weapon values from the Codex for shootas it generates the exact dps numbers presented on the Codex...
Anyway, I agree that the knockdown from More Dakka is pretty over the top.
Re: Mekboy More Dakka Global
Posted: Sat 01 Nov, 2014 3:00 am
by Black Relic
But if you put more dakka on a beamy death gun, or on the mekboy (has deff gun of beamy deff gun) himself the possibilities.
My only concern is on tankbusters with the buffs I gave and flash gitz with blasters.
Re: Mekboy More Dakka Global
Posted: Sat 01 Nov, 2014 6:28 am
by lolzarz
If anything, beamy deffguns should not be buffed by More Dakka, because they technically don't generate dakka.
Re: Mekboy More Dakka Global
Posted: Wed 12 Nov, 2014 3:22 am
by Toilailee
Cheekie Monkie wrote:Whilst I do agree with the posts made here I do find it ironic that people want to give More Dakka less dakka.
=D
Re: Mekboy More Dakka Global
Posted: Wed 12 Nov, 2014 3:20 pm
by Raffa
Cheekie Monkie wrote:Whilst I do agree with the posts made here I do find it ironic that people want to give More Dakka less dakka.
Sensei Cheekie
Re: Mekboy More Dakka Global
Posted: Thu 13 Nov, 2014 1:09 am
by Ven
i completely agree, its like the WSEs heavy fillament, but only 50 red and for, most of the time the entire squad to be knocked down instead of just one model. i think it should be changed to just how riku suggested it should be changed, it would become a bit like a longer ranged shotgun blast but without the suppression (maybe give it less knockback strength), this way its only a soft melee counter as orks counter melee with burna sluggas already pretty decently; where as a SM for example is stuck with only shotguns (unless hes FC) until he gets his expensive ASM out.
it also REALLY REALLY REALLY needs some kind of indicator, as it stands right now its just another yellow circle, and with Waaaghh! being used so often it is IMPOSSIBLE to spot where as UYC is much easier to spot, for example if my csm squad is rushed by default sluggas, i can usually atleast try to melee them down, but as soon as i see UYC on them i tell me CSM to fun as fast as their legs can carry them, where as More Dakka! just kinda... happens. and gg wp there goes 1-2 squads for what seems like at the time, no reason.
Black Relic wrote:
My only concern is on tankbusters with the buffs I gave and flash gitz with blasters.
well how about more dakka only buffs the damage/weapon cooldown or whatever on weapons that do PIERCING damage, i mean that is dakka afterall, tankbustas dont exactly "dakka" and neither does beamy deff duns. also reduced weapon cooldown would be pretty bad on blasta flashgits, it'll just make them fall over more often.
Re: Mekboy More Dakka Global
Posted: Thu 13 Nov, 2014 10:46 am
by PhatE
rename to 'slightly more dakka but not too much dakka'
Re: Mekboy More Dakka Global
Posted: Sat 15 Nov, 2014 3:17 am
by Broodwich
I think you just used up ork vocab for an entire week
Re: Mekboy More Dakka Global
Posted: Tue 02 Dec, 2014 10:46 pm
by Shas'la
How about a version that starts off as a small-ish damage buff, ramps up the damage over time, then does guaranteed knockback at the peak of the damage buff, for the last couple seconds of the duration?
For example;
Whips the boyz into a shooting frenzy, granting an initial ranged damage buff of 5%. This damage bonus will steadily increase to 20% over 4 seconds, followed by 2 seconds of guaranteed weapon knockback on every ranged attack.
This way you would get some warning before the knockback comes in, allowing you to play around it more effectively. Now, ideally we'd have a fancy pants animated effect for it that represents the ability's ramp-up, but hey.
Just throwing the idea out there in case the powers that be do decide in favour of a change. I'm not a fan of plain damage buff globals *cough*
FTE and Crack Shot *cough*, I wouldn't want to see More Dakka go back to that.
Re: Mekboy More Dakka Global
Posted: Tue 02 Dec, 2014 11:08 pm
by Vapor
First thing should be to change the visual effect to something unique, or at least different from the generic yellow-circle buff.