Can't believe I'm doing this to my beloved IG but BW is a little OP, as I'm sure all agree
I suggest making the HELLHOUND a tier 2 unit (no more inq only drop in), but then have the Banewolf gear upgrade for the snare effect.
That way, Ig will be more internally balanced as such a powerful unit will not be available in Inq only, and balanced generally as it will cost more and take more time to field the godly banewolf. The hellhound will provide the intermediary unit that can fast bash/tackle infantry while that oh-so-game-changing snare must be bought.
Will also provide IG with that fast bash capability like the orks deff dread (because flamers are meh).
Banewolf fixing?
Re: Banewolf fixing?
banewolf i would actually consider to be underpowered.
it costs red for what? a meh flamer on a low HP tank, not very useful. compared to something like the heavy turret of the lord general its really sub par.
the banewolf is cheap so its like a bloodcrusher, it puts on quick pressure. but like the BC its a glass cannon and doesnt do too much damage.
by your logic in your post, it sounds like you would consider flamer guardsmen rolling around in a chimera to be OP.
it costs red for what? a meh flamer on a low HP tank, not very useful. compared to something like the heavy turret of the lord general its really sub par.
the banewolf is cheap so its like a bloodcrusher, it puts on quick pressure. but like the BC its a glass cannon and doesnt do too much damage.
by your logic in your post, it sounds like you would consider flamer guardsmen rolling around in a chimera to be OP.
My Twitch where i occasionally stream myself pwning/getting pwned on elite mod, i seem to bounce between the two on a game to game basis. - http://www.Twitch.tv/Venkitsune
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Black Relic
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Re: Banewolf fixing?
Banewolf has already gotten some nerf already. Calling in a flamer tank in 1v1 is huge. Very quick at bashing gens. Snares infantry AND vehicles. The damage is not meh at all. The banewolf is pretty quick and durable. I may not be the best IG player but the Banewolf is a pretty good vehicle in my opinion.
The only nerf I'd would ask would be a reduction in the vehicle rotation rate. But i haven't used it much lately so this is kinda of white noise.
The only nerf I'd would ask would be a reduction in the vehicle rotation rate. But i haven't used it much lately so this is kinda of white noise.
"...With every strike of his sword, with every word of his speech, does he reaffirm the ideals of our honored master..." -From the Teachings of Roboute Guilliman as laid down in the Apocrypha of Skaros. Space Marines Codex pg. 54
Re: Banewolf fixing?
just used it. it filled the same role as a chaos BC, yes it snares but so does the bile spewer, and thats a T1 weapon, i dont see anyone complaining about that.
unlike a bloodcrusher you can get rear armor hits on the banewolf. use that to your advantage.
unlike a bloodcrusher you can get rear armor hits on the banewolf. use that to your advantage.
My Twitch where i occasionally stream myself pwning/getting pwned on elite mod, i seem to bounce between the two on a game to game basis. - http://www.Twitch.tv/Venkitsune
Re: Banewolf fixing?
Ven, please stop, you're making no sense.
"banewolf i would actually consider to be underpowered.
it costs red for what? a meh flamer on a low HP tank, not very useful. compared to something like the heavy turret of the lord general its really sub par.
the banewolf is cheap so its like a bloodcrusher, it puts on quick pressure. but like the BC its a glass cannon and doesnt do too much damage."
by your logic in your post, it sounds like you would consider flamer guardsmen rolling around in a chimera to be OP."
It isn't a meh flamer and that is not what you are paying red for.
The bane wolf flamer does 18.5dps whereas the tactical marine flamer does 8.75dps. It is more than double the damage, not to mention of course this on a much more mobile unit which has far superior armour. Also, the bane wolf has a 22dps bolter as well.
You are paying red to get a vehicle out very quickly which can then proceed to bash all the generator's on the opponents side of the map in less than a minute. Said vehicle is faster than any other vehicle in the game and has more hp than any other transport (and more hp than the looted tank) in the game while passively snaring squads AND VEHICLES that it comes across and having an ability with an extremely low cooldown which is both an aoe-snare and an aoe-dot. Combined with the mass amounts of aoe damage the inquisitor has at her disposal, and IG in general that ability can be absolutely devastating. Have you ever had some drive a banewolf into your base past your retreating army (due to the bane wolves amazing speed of 8!) and use its ability on top of a hellfury only to cause all your squads to die in base despite the base protection added in elite? I do it all the time to people and it's vicious especially after I've wiped their farm in a matter of seconds.
Heavy turrets are immobile. Bane wolves move at speed 8. That really says it all. Speed is so important in this game.
You then go on to say that because it is cheap, it is like a bloodcrusher. What? Is the space marine librarian also like a bloodcrusher? Are wartrukks? What sort of basis is that for a simile :S
It isn't really like a BC. For one, this thing isn't a line-breaker. Two, it is a ranged unit, not a melee one which means in general it will operate better in defence than offense. Three, it can bash gens incredibly quick unlike the BC. Four it has no build time whereas the BC takes a whopping 45seconds (which in my opinion is an injustice, especially now that walkers get melee-resist). Four, it moves at speed 8 and can reverse whereas the BC moves at speed 6.5 and has to spend time rotating before it falls back from an engagement. 5th, the BC is supported by heretics who are much more fragile, as well as much less combat effective than guardsmen which best support the bane wolf.
The bane wolf simply isn't a glass cannon. It's one of the hardest units in the entire game to kill due to its passive snare, long-range low-cooldown ability snare, insane speed and support in the form of the IG army - an army with constant plethora of squads able to repair and abilities to cause stuns/knockback.
And what on Earth is the chimera comment about? Chimera's don't have that chem-bomb ability, nor a passive snare. They don't have have 800hp, not to mention getting flamer guardsmen means you are dedicating two units instead of 1 to the gen-bash and even then you are not doing it as quick as the bane wolf does while simultaneously permanently gimping your GM squad unless you are vs orks with significant melee, not to mention those flamer guardsmen only shoot their flamers when they're outside of the chimera - which means they can be tied up/suppressed. No flamers are incinerating melee squads chasing the vehicle as it back-pedals off at speed 8. The bane wolf does precisely that though.
PC with bile spewer - 680hp, commander armour, speed 4.5, range 20, 12.5dps, the ability does no damage and has a radius of 8.
Bane wolf - 800hp, vehicle armour, speed 8, range 24, 18.5dps + a 22dps bolter, the ability does 10 melta each second in an aoe for 10seconds and has a radius of 15, the flamer also snares vehicles.
Suffice to say I think Cheah has a point and he and I are both IG mains so we would have no ulterior motive to claim that the BW is OP other than wanting balance progression...
"banewolf i would actually consider to be underpowered.
it costs red for what? a meh flamer on a low HP tank, not very useful. compared to something like the heavy turret of the lord general its really sub par.
the banewolf is cheap so its like a bloodcrusher, it puts on quick pressure. but like the BC its a glass cannon and doesnt do too much damage."
by your logic in your post, it sounds like you would consider flamer guardsmen rolling around in a chimera to be OP."
It isn't a meh flamer and that is not what you are paying red for.
The bane wolf flamer does 18.5dps whereas the tactical marine flamer does 8.75dps. It is more than double the damage, not to mention of course this on a much more mobile unit which has far superior armour. Also, the bane wolf has a 22dps bolter as well.
You are paying red to get a vehicle out very quickly which can then proceed to bash all the generator's on the opponents side of the map in less than a minute. Said vehicle is faster than any other vehicle in the game and has more hp than any other transport (and more hp than the looted tank) in the game while passively snaring squads AND VEHICLES that it comes across and having an ability with an extremely low cooldown which is both an aoe-snare and an aoe-dot. Combined with the mass amounts of aoe damage the inquisitor has at her disposal, and IG in general that ability can be absolutely devastating. Have you ever had some drive a banewolf into your base past your retreating army (due to the bane wolves amazing speed of 8!) and use its ability on top of a hellfury only to cause all your squads to die in base despite the base protection added in elite? I do it all the time to people and it's vicious especially after I've wiped their farm in a matter of seconds.
Heavy turrets are immobile. Bane wolves move at speed 8. That really says it all. Speed is so important in this game.
You then go on to say that because it is cheap, it is like a bloodcrusher. What? Is the space marine librarian also like a bloodcrusher? Are wartrukks? What sort of basis is that for a simile :S
It isn't really like a BC. For one, this thing isn't a line-breaker. Two, it is a ranged unit, not a melee one which means in general it will operate better in defence than offense. Three, it can bash gens incredibly quick unlike the BC. Four it has no build time whereas the BC takes a whopping 45seconds (which in my opinion is an injustice, especially now that walkers get melee-resist). Four, it moves at speed 8 and can reverse whereas the BC moves at speed 6.5 and has to spend time rotating before it falls back from an engagement. 5th, the BC is supported by heretics who are much more fragile, as well as much less combat effective than guardsmen which best support the bane wolf.
The bane wolf simply isn't a glass cannon. It's one of the hardest units in the entire game to kill due to its passive snare, long-range low-cooldown ability snare, insane speed and support in the form of the IG army - an army with constant plethora of squads able to repair and abilities to cause stuns/knockback.
And what on Earth is the chimera comment about? Chimera's don't have that chem-bomb ability, nor a passive snare. They don't have have 800hp, not to mention getting flamer guardsmen means you are dedicating two units instead of 1 to the gen-bash and even then you are not doing it as quick as the bane wolf does while simultaneously permanently gimping your GM squad unless you are vs orks with significant melee, not to mention those flamer guardsmen only shoot their flamers when they're outside of the chimera - which means they can be tied up/suppressed. No flamers are incinerating melee squads chasing the vehicle as it back-pedals off at speed 8. The bane wolf does precisely that though.
PC with bile spewer - 680hp, commander armour, speed 4.5, range 20, 12.5dps, the ability does no damage and has a radius of 8.
Bane wolf - 800hp, vehicle armour, speed 8, range 24, 18.5dps + a 22dps bolter, the ability does 10 melta each second in an aoe for 10seconds and has a radius of 15, the flamer also snares vehicles.
Suffice to say I think Cheah has a point and he and I are both IG mains so we would have no ulterior motive to claim that the BW is OP other than wanting balance progression...
Lets make Ordo Malleus great again!
Re: Banewolf fixing?
@Torpid
okay maybe i should have looked at its stats first before commenting, i wasn't exactly 100% sober on the time of writing those first few comments. if it does 8 speed and 700hp then yes that would be very powerful, i still however would not call it OP. i just personally never have problems with it. then again i main chaos which are the kings of AV so i might be a bit bias there.
what i do play of IG, my banewolf feels a lot like a transport in terms of its mobility and tankyness and usually dies only slightly slower than a chimera to dedicated AV such as lascannon + AC raptor combo for example. for this reason i didnt even look at the banewolfs stats, what little i see of it used in my games or in casts doesnt seem like its worth it considering the chimera AND its recent buffs in the form of the mobile base upgrade.
i made the comparison to the bloodcrusher because its pretty much equaly as cheap and comes out faster, and can be used to apply early pressure. what it doesnt have however is AV weapons on it and it can take rear armor hits. whenever i do see one in one of my games i get plague marines + AC raptors + khorne worship. snare it and then jump rear armor, its dead about as fast as a chimera as i took advantage of rear armour which a lot of other T2 vehicles do not have, such as walkers. but again, this might be because i've been spoilt by chaos's silly amounts of AV potential. it might be harder to deal with in certain MUs, but this can be said of a lot of things. i can imagine that races like GK and eldar, with the less bursty but more consistent AV having problems with a vehicle with 8 speed and 700hp.
HOWEVER this is only on one commander, similar somewhat to the TMs ven dread or the BCs LRC (they're T3 however) the TMs ven dread is only 50 power and has great AV and AI as its heavy melee. the ven dread and LRC cost significantly more red however, and in the case of the LRC its a lot more req/cost so we can throw that comparison out the window. and again are T3, but i dont think increasing the cost of the banewolf for example would fix it, it would not be an early T2 unit to pressure your opposition anymore, incurring a build time would make people think "why get this when i can get a chimera out which is usually better?" its speed is fine, i think thats pretty much the unit is designed, but its HP might be a bit silly for a unit like that. i think if the modding team were to change it in any way, its HP would be looked at first, and then maybe the vehicle snare.
im pretty sure the banewolf has been relatively untouched since retail. if i remember correctly in retail IG vehicles had an "extra armor" system which lemans, chimeras and sentinels had, it basically added a temporary health boost for req and power and it could be reserached multiple times if you can remember. i do not remember the banewolf having this upgrade, that would be an obvious downside. however elite removed this whole "extra armour" system, this is likely why you consider the banewolf to be OP. beforehand it would not be able to get that upgrade so it would be handicapped in that way, now that mechanic is not a thing in elite it might be considered a powerful unit.
i personally do not consider it a powerful unit, maybe its because i never see it or when i use it it goes boom. but from a statistical standpoint it is overpowered, from my experiences with the unit whether it was me or my oponent using it, i do not consider it as overpowered. but again, i might have been spoilt by the AV masterrace chaos.
i'll try and explain my points a bit better in the future, im pretty sure in my lack of understanding of the units stats and me being half-drunk didnt help the matter, forgive me. would of liked if Cheah explained his point a bit more though.
EDIT: after some further digging on the codex i found that the banewolf does more dps than a single LRR flame cannon, i can without a doubt see why this would be considered OP now. again forgive me being stupid + drunk
okay maybe i should have looked at its stats first before commenting, i wasn't exactly 100% sober on the time of writing those first few comments. if it does 8 speed and 700hp then yes that would be very powerful, i still however would not call it OP. i just personally never have problems with it. then again i main chaos which are the kings of AV so i might be a bit bias there.
what i do play of IG, my banewolf feels a lot like a transport in terms of its mobility and tankyness and usually dies only slightly slower than a chimera to dedicated AV such as lascannon + AC raptor combo for example. for this reason i didnt even look at the banewolfs stats, what little i see of it used in my games or in casts doesnt seem like its worth it considering the chimera AND its recent buffs in the form of the mobile base upgrade.
i made the comparison to the bloodcrusher because its pretty much equaly as cheap and comes out faster, and can be used to apply early pressure. what it doesnt have however is AV weapons on it and it can take rear armor hits. whenever i do see one in one of my games i get plague marines + AC raptors + khorne worship. snare it and then jump rear armor, its dead about as fast as a chimera as i took advantage of rear armour which a lot of other T2 vehicles do not have, such as walkers. but again, this might be because i've been spoilt by chaos's silly amounts of AV potential. it might be harder to deal with in certain MUs, but this can be said of a lot of things. i can imagine that races like GK and eldar, with the less bursty but more consistent AV having problems with a vehicle with 8 speed and 700hp.
HOWEVER this is only on one commander, similar somewhat to the TMs ven dread or the BCs LRC (they're T3 however) the TMs ven dread is only 50 power and has great AV and AI as its heavy melee. the ven dread and LRC cost significantly more red however, and in the case of the LRC its a lot more req/cost so we can throw that comparison out the window. and again are T3, but i dont think increasing the cost of the banewolf for example would fix it, it would not be an early T2 unit to pressure your opposition anymore, incurring a build time would make people think "why get this when i can get a chimera out which is usually better?" its speed is fine, i think thats pretty much the unit is designed, but its HP might be a bit silly for a unit like that. i think if the modding team were to change it in any way, its HP would be looked at first, and then maybe the vehicle snare.
im pretty sure the banewolf has been relatively untouched since retail. if i remember correctly in retail IG vehicles had an "extra armor" system which lemans, chimeras and sentinels had, it basically added a temporary health boost for req and power and it could be reserached multiple times if you can remember. i do not remember the banewolf having this upgrade, that would be an obvious downside. however elite removed this whole "extra armour" system, this is likely why you consider the banewolf to be OP. beforehand it would not be able to get that upgrade so it would be handicapped in that way, now that mechanic is not a thing in elite it might be considered a powerful unit.
i personally do not consider it a powerful unit, maybe its because i never see it or when i use it it goes boom. but from a statistical standpoint it is overpowered, from my experiences with the unit whether it was me or my oponent using it, i do not consider it as overpowered. but again, i might have been spoilt by the AV masterrace chaos.
i'll try and explain my points a bit better in the future, im pretty sure in my lack of understanding of the units stats and me being half-drunk didnt help the matter, forgive me. would of liked if Cheah explained his point a bit more though.
EDIT: after some further digging on the codex i found that the banewolf does more dps than a single LRR flame cannon, i can without a doubt see why this would be considered OP now. again forgive me being stupid + drunk
My Twitch where i occasionally stream myself pwning/getting pwned on elite mod, i seem to bounce between the two on a game to game basis. - http://www.Twitch.tv/Venkitsune
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Atlas
Re: Banewolf fixing?
Looks like it's time to do more banewolves on people before it gets nerfed again 
I think the banewolf works best with a lascannon weapon team as not only does that combo come out crazy fast(as soon as t2 hits) but they complement each other really well with the banewolf snare and lascannon able to take care of a whole lot of vehicles and the banewolf snare also being able to be used in anti-melee to replace the heavy bolter.
Plus servo skull synergy for deep striking
I'm pretty sure speed 8 is shared by a number of vehicles in the game that I can't remember but I know the chimera has speed 8. I don't think that's a unique thing to the banewolf.
So yeah, banewolf pretty good. Please don't nerf :<
I think the banewolf works best with a lascannon weapon team as not only does that combo come out crazy fast(as soon as t2 hits) but they complement each other really well with the banewolf snare and lascannon able to take care of a whole lot of vehicles and the banewolf snare also being able to be used in anti-melee to replace the heavy bolter.
Plus servo skull synergy for deep striking
I'm pretty sure speed 8 is shared by a number of vehicles in the game that I can't remember but I know the chimera has speed 8. I don't think that's a unique thing to the banewolf.
So yeah, banewolf pretty good. Please don't nerf :<
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BaptismByLoli
- Posts: 830
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- Location: The Place Where Wishes Come True
Re: Banewolf fixing?
Think Sentinel speed vehicle with a snaring ability, vehicle armour, and a rather high AoE flame damage. Also, you can drop it anywhere you want, be them gen farm or behind an enemy at the start of an engagement.
You don't want your units snared vs IG... Ever.
You don't want your units snared vs IG... Ever.
Re: Banewolf fixing?
+1Torpid wrote:Ven, please stop, you're making no sense.
...
You should do a whole lot more before commenting on balance!Ven wrote:okay maybe i should have looked at its stats first before commenting, i wasn't exactly 100% sober on the time of writing those first few comments.
Don't post drunk... what are you doing drunk on a forum on your pc in the first place anyway? °_O
There is a ton more out there than these casts and your PoV. You even say it yourself: "what little I see."Ven wrote:what little i see of it used in my games or in casts doesnt seem like its worth it
You must know you can't draw any conclusions based on a very small percentage of data.
Walkers have rear armor...Ven wrote: as i took advantage of rear armour which a lot of other T2 vehicles do not have, such as walkers.
Edit: "MISTAKES WERE MADE" My apologies. Walker do not have rear armor.
This whole part makes zero sense. Just because some units have an upgrade that another doesn't have does not make said unit any worse. The razorback and predator can both buy extra armor (HP), The whirlwind can't, does this suddenly make the whirlwind worse just because it can't get that upgrade? No, it does not. The IG extra armor upgrade was a very bad upgrade to begin with. It's a trait not having access to the old IG extra armor upgrade, you can't miss click on it this way.Ven wrote:if i remember correctly in retail IG vehicles had an "extra armor" system which lemans, chimeras and sentinels had, it basically added a temporary health boost for req and power and it could be reserached multiple times if you can remember. i do not remember the banewolf having this upgrade, that would be an obvious downside. however elite removed this whole "extra armour" system, this is likely why you consider the banewolf to be OP. beforehand it would not be able to get that upgrade so it would be handicapped in that way, now that mechanic is not a thing in elite it might be considered a powerful unit.
No, stop posting before thinking and knowing the basics of the game.Ven wrote:again forgive me being stupid + drunk
Last edited by Dark Riku on Sat 29 Nov, 2014 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Banewolf fixing?
Walkers have rear armor...
Excuse me? Are you not confusing something here?
Re: Banewolf fixing?
Dark Riku wrote:Walkers have rear armor...
err pretty sure they dont. i've never gotten or seen a rear armour hit on a dreadnought, wraithlord, deff dread or any other walker.
are you sure YOU aren't drunk?
Dark Riku wrote:This whole part makes zero sense. Just because some units have an upgrade that another doesn't have does not make said unit any worse. The razorback and predator can both buy extra armor (HP), The whirlwind can't, does this suddenly make the whirlwind worse just because it can't get that upgrade? No, it does not. The IG extra armor upgrade was a very bad upgrade to begin with. It's a trait not having access to the old IG extra armor upgrade, you can't miss click on it this way.
my point is that in retail, it would of been at a disadvantage due to this, because in retail it would of had a semi-similar function to a chimera in terms of its speed, cost and health. but im pretty sure the banewolf has been barely touched since elite, and thus that lack of extra armour is no longer a disadvantage as its no longer an advantage for the other vehicles anymore.
Dark Riku wrote:No, stop posting before thinking and knowing the basics of the game.
fair doos but being haff drunk kinda stops you from thinking "maybe i should look at its stats before posting, or not post at all if i dont know much about the unit"
i realise i dont know much about the unit as ive barely seen it like i said in my last post. i just wanted to offer my take on it from a not-drunk-anymore me, whether you agree or disagree is up to you it is a DISCUSSION afterall.
Last edited by Ven on Sat 29 Nov, 2014 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
My Twitch where i occasionally stream myself pwning/getting pwned on elite mod, i seem to bounce between the two on a game to game basis. - http://www.Twitch.tv/Venkitsune
Re: Banewolf fixing?
Wow not only does Torpid take a shot but then Riku follows up too. Poor Ven 
I think Torpid has pretty much said all there is to say in favour of my proposal so I've not got more to add... Other than I concur.
I think Torpid has pretty much said all there is to say in favour of my proposal so I've not got more to add... Other than I concur.
Re: Banewolf fixing?
Indeed, my apologies, I'm mistaking here.Sub_Zero wrote:Excuse me? Are you not confusing something here?
They only have a different armor value in the rear in TT.
I never claimed to be drunkVen wrote:are you sure YOU aren't drunk?
I did made an awful mistake here though.Ofcource. Input is welcome from anywhere. Just the way it is brought in can be rather frustrating sometimes.Ven wrote:i realise i dont know much about the unit as ive barely seen it like i said in my last post. i just wanted to offer my take on it from a not-drunk-anymore me, whether you agree or disagree is up to you it is a DISCUSSION afterall.
Re: Banewolf fixing?
Banewolf is an incredibly powerful unit, borderline OP. It shares the BC's ability to force a disproportionate amount of AV (IF used properly) and can come out inexpensively in T2, but the comparison mostly ends there (as called out by others). It's instant build time is AMAZINGLY important, especially when coupled with the near instant gen bashing.
I find it's best used like a stronger (apropriate considering the Red cost) Deff Dread - get if you enter T2 first and burn opponents gens down before they can do anything about it, then focus on counter initiation. This will put you ahead in tech, keep the investment quite safe, and force a lot of AV out that you can largely avoid by staying with you blob. 2-3 Guardmen with a Bane are brutal, and it gets worse with whatever other unit you mix in next (or had from T1). From this moment forward, the SECOND you force the opponent off, b-line the Bane to the gens. The Bane keeps you infantry safe from any melee attackers, and can even counter ranged infantry, knowing it can safely take a hit or two from AV before backing up to get mass repaired. I prefer to avoid Chimera if I get a Bane, to keep pathing from getting too messy.
If I had a magic wand, I'd make it appear at base instead of at a drop location. Those extra 10-20 seconds your opponent has before it makes it to the gens would help a lot.
Though I do like the OP's idea of a generic (non-red) version of it available to all commanders, since I think it's a really unique unit.
Edit: This post (and a lot of this thread) feels like it should almost be in the strategy section: "How do I use the Banewolf well?"
I find it's best used like a stronger (apropriate considering the Red cost) Deff Dread - get if you enter T2 first and burn opponents gens down before they can do anything about it, then focus on counter initiation. This will put you ahead in tech, keep the investment quite safe, and force a lot of AV out that you can largely avoid by staying with you blob. 2-3 Guardmen with a Bane are brutal, and it gets worse with whatever other unit you mix in next (or had from T1). From this moment forward, the SECOND you force the opponent off, b-line the Bane to the gens. The Bane keeps you infantry safe from any melee attackers, and can even counter ranged infantry, knowing it can safely take a hit or two from AV before backing up to get mass repaired. I prefer to avoid Chimera if I get a Bane, to keep pathing from getting too messy.
If I had a magic wand, I'd make it appear at base instead of at a drop location. Those extra 10-20 seconds your opponent has before it makes it to the gens would help a lot.
Though I do like the OP's idea of a generic (non-red) version of it available to all commanders, since I think it's a really unique unit.
Edit: This post (and a lot of this thread) feels like it should almost be in the strategy section: "How do I use the Banewolf well?"
Re: Banewolf fixing?
Thanks for bringing up an important part of the OP Cyris. I think the Hellhound as tier 2 unit and banewolf upgrade is a perfect fix. The banewolf has a huge role in the IG roster for inq which is missing for the other two.
I'm no good with proposing numbers, but if I had to suggest for the Hellhound it would be:
Req 320
Pow 50
Build time 40
15 Flame dps
Ability: Blah blah blah same as Banewolf but without snare just AoE DoT
Banewolf Gear: Req 75 Pow 15
Equips Chem Cannon which gives snare and boosts dps a little.
I'm no good with proposing numbers, but if I had to suggest for the Hellhound it would be:
Req 320
Pow 50
Build time 40
15 Flame dps
Ability: Blah blah blah same as Banewolf but without snare just AoE DoT
Banewolf Gear: Req 75 Pow 15
Equips Chem Cannon which gives snare and boosts dps a little.
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Fr33man1800
- Posts: 111
- Joined: Sun 23 Jun, 2013 1:05 pm
Re: Banewolf fixing?
As an IG player I think that it would be a very good addition. Mostly because I find myself pretty much always buying the chimera when I want some field presence. I know ogrins might also help but im not a huge fan of ogrins in a 3vs3 and frankly there isnt a lot of options for maintaining field presence with IG, apart from the clasical defensive style of wall of GM and reinforce (bunker,chimera or mobile base).
The option of having a fully mechanized force with sentinels and hellhounds in t2 could be interesting. Also if there is a unit already in the game like for example seer counsil (retail) or assault terminators im not a huge fan of restricting that unit to a single comander, since the comanders in this game already make the faction play very diferenly so i dont like limiting a single faction because of that.
While im on the topic i think it could also be nice giving Sm players the option to get ven dreds or asst. terms to their rosters since the comanders would get a cheaper version and they would be able to support them better: Venerable w/ techmarine repair or blessing, or asst. terms with sacred or FC support.
EDIT: Also it could be interesting having a T3 upgrade called the "Devildog" which would replace the chem canon with a melta for some anti SHI armor or vehicles. I dont think it would make it OP cause meltas have a very short range and IG is most likely to get another more relaible source of AV like HWT or lemans. Also the upgrade woudnt be useless cause you could combo it up with stormtroopers grenades or kasrkins and then charge.
The option of having a fully mechanized force with sentinels and hellhounds in t2 could be interesting. Also if there is a unit already in the game like for example seer counsil (retail) or assault terminators im not a huge fan of restricting that unit to a single comander, since the comanders in this game already make the faction play very diferenly so i dont like limiting a single faction because of that.
While im on the topic i think it could also be nice giving Sm players the option to get ven dreds or asst. terms to their rosters since the comanders would get a cheaper version and they would be able to support them better: Venerable w/ techmarine repair or blessing, or asst. terms with sacred or FC support.
EDIT: Also it could be interesting having a T3 upgrade called the "Devildog" which would replace the chem canon with a melta for some anti SHI armor or vehicles. I dont think it would make it OP cause meltas have a very short range and IG is most likely to get another more relaible source of AV like HWT or lemans. Also the upgrade woudnt be useless cause you could combo it up with stormtroopers grenades or kasrkins and then charge.
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Atlas
Re: Banewolf fixing?
Torpid wrote:+1 to what freeman said.
Re: Banewolf fixing?
A bit off-topic but I feel I have to add this. The idea to give away unique units is indeed good but Caeltos has already announced that he planed to introduce even more unique units. So I suppose this is not gonna work.
Re: Banewolf fixing?
If the consensus is that it would make the game more balanced or enjoyable. I can't see why it wouldn't happen. Ofc Kal-El himself makes the final decision.
Anyhow I don't think that the intention to add new unique units would necessarily mean that an existing unique unit would not get its status changed into non-unique if good arguments are provided.
Anyhow I don't think that the intention to add new unique units would necessarily mean that an existing unique unit would not get its status changed into non-unique if good arguments are provided.
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Surprise Attack!
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Re: Banewolf fixing?
Why add units when you can just make it a direct upgrade to the chimera like the mobile base? A little like the Rhino right now, but the Devil Dog and Hellhound variants lose the ability to carry troops. Due to the tradeoff, these upgrades won't be too expensive.
Currently in COH2 there is a similar mechanic in the Ostheer Sdkfz. In T2 it can upgrade to carry 2x flamethrowers but loses the ability to transport. Still can reinforce squads though.
Currently in COH2 there is a similar mechanic in the Ostheer Sdkfz. In T2 it can upgrade to carry 2x flamethrowers but loses the ability to transport. Still can reinforce squads though.
Re: Banewolf fixing?
Versatility is always an advantage. Imagine if you could upgrade a wartrukk to lose its reinforce ability but to gain burnas which were as strong as the deffdread's for 30 or so power. Too good. There should be a trade-off between getting chimeras and hellhounds directly out of the gate otherwise you rush the ever-useful chimera as soon as you hit T2 and then only swap it to a HH if the situation arises to get off a gen-bash own some blobby stuff, but then you haven't been punished for making the incorrect decision to get the chimera in the first place. It's this sort of thing which is the true strength of SM scouts.
Very useful by default and have an upgrade that is even more useful in nearly every scenario.
Very useful by default and have an upgrade that is even more useful in nearly every scenario.
Lets make Ordo Malleus great again!
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Re: Banewolf fixing?
Torpid wrote:Versatility is always an advantage. Imagine if you could upgrade a wartrukk to lose its reinforce ability but to gain burnas which were as strong as the deffdread's for 30 or so power. Too good. There should be a trade-off between getting chimeras and hellhounds directly out of the gate otherwise you rush the ever-useful chimera as soon as you hit T2 and then only swap it to a HH if the situation arises to get off a gen-bash own some blobby stuff, but then you haven't been punished for making the incorrect decision to get the chimera in the first place. It's this sort of thing which is the true strength of SM scouts.
Very useful by default and have an upgrade that is even more useful in nearly every scenario.
I definitely see the potential issue, but I'm not sure if the wartrukk is the best comparison, mostly because the wartrukk+burnas combo is a bit more extreme.
Again, I will defer to your judgment in the end, given my lack of experience, but to me there is never really a "contraindication" for the Chimera. Of course, in particular situations, you might be better served to spend funds elsewhere and you might be punished in the sense that the Chimera does not have as much of an impact as, say Ogryns. That being said, however, you're never going to be punished for purchasing a Chimera in the same way Orks would be punished for buying a wartrukk when they don't have sluggas or stormboyz.
The reinforcement speed of GMs just combos too well Chimeras. I'm going to take a stab at statistics, but I see IG players obtaining Chimeras in 2/3s of the games in which they are neither dominating the opposition or being dominated by the opposition. I'd venture a guess that if the average IG player had spare resources and was not sure what to get in T2, it would be a Chimera.
I hope the above explains why I thought it might be a good idea to have direct upgrades to a Chimera. Unlike a wartrukk, the Chimera is more of a staple purchase rather than something you get to support a specific strategy. So, if you're going to have it anyway, why not punish you for losing the benefits of the original(reinforcement aura) for a unit that will be somewhat fragile for its intended purpose(devil dog melta turret) or limited in purpose(hellhound)?
Re: Banewolf fixing?
Surprise Attack! wrote: Unlike a wartrukk, the Chimera is more of a staple purchase rather than something you get to support a specific strategy. So, if you're going to have it anyway, why not punish you for losing the benefits of the original(reinforcement aura) for a unit that will be somewhat fragile for its intended purpose(devil dog melta turret) or limited in purpose(hellhound)?
This is precisely what worries me about making the hellhound an upgrade to the chimera. It is like giving CSM a melta gun/melta bomb upgrade. The chimera is extremely useful in its default form for nearly all IG MUs so the IG suffers very little early on from rushing a chimera instead of a hellhound even in scenarios where the hellhound would be more appropriate. And then even in scenarios where chimera were more suitable it can be changed to a hellhound whenever doing so is optimal, that would be a huge buff to chimeras overall, one that I don't think it suitable.
Lets make Ordo Malleus great again!
Re: Banewolf fixing?
100% with torpid's position on this one. Going into tier 2, I need to be constrained as to which route I want to follow: Do I get the chimera and, well, let it do what the chimera does...
OR do I rush out that hellhound, attempt a bash, harass his infantry.
The upgrade would facilitate both which is an absurdly powerful idea. Think about it: I get the chimera, run it out and it turns out I'm not able to bash him yet due to AV or whatever. No matter, I have a chimera now and can just alter my tactics accordingly. The two units (chimera and hellhound) SHOULD be completely different in their intended role, and the choice comes about at such a decisive moment in the game, and as such I shouldn't be able to cover two options with one unit and just order in the chimera instantly.
OR do I rush out that hellhound, attempt a bash, harass his infantry.
The upgrade would facilitate both which is an absurdly powerful idea. Think about it: I get the chimera, run it out and it turns out I'm not able to bash him yet due to AV or whatever. No matter, I have a chimera now and can just alter my tactics accordingly. The two units (chimera and hellhound) SHOULD be completely different in their intended role, and the choice comes about at such a decisive moment in the game, and as such I shouldn't be able to cover two options with one unit and just order in the chimera instantly.
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Surprise Attack!
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Re: Banewolf fixing?
Cheah18 wrote:100% with torpid's position on this one. Going into tier 2, I need to be constrained as to which route I want to follow: Do I get the chimera and, well, let it do what the chimera does...
OR do I rush out that hellhound, attempt a bash, harass his infantry.
The upgrade would facilitate both which is an absurdly powerful idea. Think about it: I get the chimera, run it out and it turns out I'm not able to bash him yet due to AV or whatever. No matter, I have a chimera now and can just alter my tactics accordingly. The two units (chimera and hellhound) SHOULD be completely different in their intended role, and the choice comes about at such a decisive moment in the game, and as such I shouldn't be able to cover two options with one unit and just order in the chimera instantly.
Yeah I understand where Torpid is coming from now.
Part of the problem is that(due to my lack of experience with IG) I've always thought of the Chimera as a more or less "must get unit" for IG, which means that if you did decide to change your Chimera to a Hellhound and lose the reinforcement aura, you're either gimped or you'd have to buy another Chimera.
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