[Request] Could we get a Calderis Refinery (3v3) Redux?

[Ven]

Right now the map has some serious issues that i know a lot of people have with it.

just to name a few.

It's easy to get trapped in base/trap your opponent in their base if there is a skill gap.

you might say that about a lot of maps, however calderis refinery is a unique case, the entrances to the bases are incredibly tight and can be a bottleneck for your army if you're pushed back all the way to your base. and with a VP/req point outside of all of the outside edge bases, yes your oponent will very likely push up that far.

there doesn't even need to be a skill gap.
i had a game the other day where i pushed a guy back to his base after wiping one of his squads (before then it was mostly a back and fourth, we were around the same skill level), i put up two khorne shrines behind the wall and bought a 2nd havoc squad, he could not get out of his base for the whole game. if he tried to counter the setup team he would get jumped by tics/bloodletters. if he tried to force his army down on of the two paths he would get a "Let the Galaxy Burn!" on his face. it's happened to me a lot of times aswell in a similar fashion.
I saw a TM put a turret on the entrance of his opponents base as his first power purchase. that player (i think he was SM aswell) did not get a counter for the turret for atleast a few minutes which gave the TM time to bash and the other SM couldn't even walk a few meters before he got suppressed.

it is really a crushing feeling being trapped in base, especially when you know you could break it if it wasn't for a wall in X position. which is what calderis has. a lot of these base traps could be broken if it wasnt for the platou that was not only a shot blocker and an LoS blocker 3 FEET FROM YOUR BASE but it forces you down narrow exits to your base which can and will be exploited to base trap you/base trap an opponent.

this really needs to be fixed, maps like Meridian high city doesn't have this issue so much as the entrance is wide, and setting up setup teams facing the entrance for example will leave you open to a flank from the mid player.

The power can be hard to bash

this is an issue a lot of people have with meridian high city aswell. the power is on a raised platform and trying to bash it might leave you open to a flank from either side. i've also noticed that some of the areas around the power have PERFECT out of the way places for webway gates which will atleast for a time, give any eldar players an advantage they can take.


---------


This map feels like it was designed to be balanced, but it is not.
on maps like Argus desert gate, if you loose your lane atleast you wont be trapped in base, and if you want you can flank around or go help allies, on calderis refinery that is very difficult to do, if you screw up one engagement then its basically GG if your opponent can act fast and trap you in base.


would love to see a redux of the map to make it a little more forgiving if you screw up an engagement, or give you a few more options such as flanking routes. if you flank throught the mid then you'll be chewed up by the mid player. your only other option is a head on assault, and a lot of races don't do as well as others on head on assaults which might give advtantages to certain MUs.

im not an expert on map design, but these issues are so glaring and obvious to the average player. there has to be some way to fix these issues without destorying the feeling of the map.
dont get me wrong, if its all perfectly balanced and you have perfect teamwork then its an awesome map with its meat grinder in the middle. but thats only if its perfectly balanced and noone gets trapped in their base.

[Superhooper01]

Hm there are alot of maps that i think could use a similar touch (angel gate,meridian high city etc) problem is asking indrid or max to do it takes the piss a little as they have life's and have done a few remakes or redo's and maps for us so unless some1 else steps up not sure how this can be addressed

[Old World]

Then we do it ourselves, learn how to use the world builder and crack on.

[Adeptus Noobus]

I went for the mentioned basetrap and was almost at the recieving end of it once too. Both times it was avoided through teamplay. If your teammates simply do not assist you while you are being trapped in your base for minutes, then there is something wrong with the teamplay in my opinion. The fact, that you pulled all that off, presumably in a 3v3, proves my point.
Many more maps have a layout that makes it possible to be trapped in-base, including Argus Desert Gate, if you position yourself well enough.

Your points concerning the power being difficult to bash on Meridian and Calderis are understandable, but in my opinion it is more fun because it is a greater challenge Also, different maps naturally demand to be played differently. It would be kind of boring if every map would be played like this: win 1st engagement -> bash power without danger of being punished for it -> build up the momentum -> gg -> no re. On e.g. Meridian you simply have to adapt to the situation of not being able to easily bash power. More fun like that.

Just my opinion though.

[Ven]

First, I think Relic wrecked the World Builder with their last patch, so a re-design is out of the question for the moment. Max even has a new map in the pipeline but due to the non-functioning World Builder...
Second, I went for the mentioned basetrap and was almost at the recieving end of it once too. Both times it was avoided through teamplay. If your teammates simply do not assist you while you are being trapped in your base for minutes, then there is something wrong with the teamplay in my opinion. The fact, that you pulled all that off, presumably in a 3v3, proves my point.
Many more maps have a layout that makes it possible to be trapped in-base, including Argus Desert Gate, if you position yourself well enough.

Myrdal got worldbuilder working again

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1302

also, getting trapped on calderis could be deadly, your teammates could be tied up, if they're winning their lane then yea they can come help. but im talking about when the other 2 players are pre-occupied and unable to assist. and no, its very, very hard to be base trapped in argus, if you get base trapped then all 3 of you have been outplayed and is thus not the fault of map design, there is many ways out of your base(s) in argus. calderis on the other hand is diffeent, if one player gets outplayed and trapped in base it can turn in to a 2v3 which is an immediate loss, but a lot of those base traps can be broken from a redesign of the map, because of the narrow entrance to your base its very hard to get out and very easy to thus trap someone in their base if done correctly.

Hm there are alot of maps that i think could use a similar touch (angel gate,meridian high city etc) problem is asking indrid or max to do it takes the piss a little as they have life's and have done a few remakes or redo's and maps for us so unless some1 else steps up not sure how this can be addressed

well yea thats why its a Request if they want to do it, then cool. if not then okay, im just going to avoid playing on calderis like i have been in my 600 hrs of playtime. no biggie. i would love to do it myself, unfortunately the one time i opened world builder my brain melted.

[appiah4]

Indrid has a life? Surely he is a manifestation of the Warp, sent back in time by the Emperor to create, watch and comment on all possible future outcomes of Armageddon.M41?

[Swift]

Indrid has a life? Surely he is a manifestation of the Warp, sent back in time by the Emperor to create, watch and comment on all possible future outcomes of Armageddon.M41?

He's a servitor, ask Toil, he'll tell you why it must be true.

I've been trying the world builder actually, but I can't get the fiddly stuff like disguising the edges, making ramps and getting hills and depressions to work. Also I have no knowledge of map balance, only cool looking scenarios.