Change Tome of Subjugation

[The great Cornholio]

I understand some of the changes made to this wargear. It was very powerfull in retail. but now it is meeh at best
the unit you gain controll over

cant loose health
moves at half speed
the time they can be used is very short

and the worst thing is sorceror is a pretty fragile hero just standing still .. so its so easy just 2 gun him down.
sorceror is dead and the unit is back again with not a single health point lost.

soooo.. this must be changed. would be great if sorcerer would take 50% less damage and the unit also 50% less damage for 12 seconds

or at least the sorcerer took 50% less damage

[Ven]

i personally think its pretty much good how it is right now.

i think that the immunity to damage isn't 100% justified as a lot of people will avoid shooting their own units if they can help it, but i think it is there to stop bleed if you really need to shoot your own unit. so for example your ASMs get taken over by TOS, you will likely need to shotgun blast them to stop it. i dont think its fair to bleed yourself with something that is not under your control. you can already do silly things with TOS such as run their units in to a death trap of your units.

the damage resistance on the sorc sounds feasible on paper, but wargear like rune armour for the farseer also makes her vulnerable just sitting in place AND locked in an animation. infact tome of subjugation is better in that you can interrupt it when you want (i think?) where as psychic storm on the farseer can not be interrupted at will. the farseer even has slightly less health than the sorc at lvl 1.

most sorcerers i see using the TOS sit their sorc behind a shotblocker to prevent them from being focused down easily.

taking control of someones seer council, nobs or terminators for 10 SECONDS is hardly a short time, thats enough time to force off most of their army. 10 seconds is a very long time in this game, especially in 1v1s.
also, units get their movement reduced by 1 under subjigation, not halved.



maybe something can be dont to balance it, but i think there is very little that can be done. is some MUs its really quite useless, where as in other MUs TOS is so ridiculously powerful. it's a very situational wargear.

also, Welcome to the forums!

[BaptismByLoli]

When I use Tome of Subjugation, my goal is to disrupt or pressure key units away from the battle or kill targets of opportunity.

When all else fails, subjugating Nobz/Terminators and making them waste their ability (preferably towards their own units) is also fun.

Heck, just making units use their own abilities towards one another is fun and trolly. Especially when you make them walk into an Abyss or Warp Fire ^^

[Daddy]

It's funny to see you post this because, you made excellent use of Tome Of Subjugation in this casts:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqNgK7bylAg





What the sorcerer needs is a 3rd weapon, if anything else.

Maybe a weapon to increase accuracy, so that lascannons and missile launchers hit infantry lololol.<----ignore this.

[lolzarz]

I understand some of the changes made to this wargear. It was very powerfull in retail. but now it is meeh at best
the unit you gain controll over

cant loose health
moves at half speed
the time they can be used is very short

and the worst thing is sorceror is a pretty fragile hero just standing still .. so its so easy just 2 gun him down.
sorceror is dead and the unit is back again with not a single health point lost.

soooo.. this must be changed. would be great if sorcerer would take 50% less damage and the unit also 50% less damage for 12 seconds

or at least the sorcerer took 50% less damage

-1 speed is NOT half speed. And then you get to use subjugation on the strongest enemy squad, which at the very least removes them from the battle for 12 seconds. You get to use the abilities on the enemy as well. Teleport assault terminators into middle of enemy army, frenzy nobs onto walkers, warshout the enemy army, etc. That, at the very least, wastes their ability, which is in addition to any damage you did, like suppression, cleansing flame, and all that kind of ridiculous stuff.

[Sub_Zero]

By its nature it is a defensive tool. But has anyone of you tried to use that along side raptors or any other offensive unit? Use teleport on your hero and provide so much needed help for your offensive unit. Such an awesome wargear. And you hero can't be targeted because he will disable one unit and that unit will tie some other unit, some other unit will be tied by your offensive unit (raptors, letters). Well you get that. A leveled sorcerer is capable of it (teleport + subjugation)

Just an example: Raptors initiate, cause suppression, then sorcerer moves to the position of the raptors and teleports khorne marines to his position via his global, then he subjugates something important from the enemy's army and if there is no vehicle I doubt anything will be able to hold that attack.

[Flash]

I remember in retail people using tome to walk terminators and nobz far into enemy lines/waste the teleport and drop an abyss on them. I believe that's the explanation for the reduced speed and damage immunity. It basically eleminated all enemy t3 infantry as viable for a ridiculously low cost.

Edit: another thing, the tome is in many ways uncounterable and cannot be prevented (obviously you can buy tanks) but you cannot prevent your units being controlled by using micro and awareness. IIRC reducing situations that where outiside a players ability to influence was a goal of this mod. The changes are designed to allow a player to deal with being subjugated and still give the sorcerer a very powerful tool.

[Torpid]

You certainly can deal with subjugation, it has short-range and you can kill the sorceror. So you could just avoid getting subbed in the first place or keep extra ranged firepower around to deal with the CS once he subs something.

If that was the definition of uncounterable then the power fist would be uncounterable too, but it isn't at all, it's only uncounterable once you already failed to counter it and let them get off flesh over steel and have the HP to finish off your vehicle.

[The great Cornholio]

It was way 2 good in retail.. we all know that.. but now in 3v3 like i said... just gun the sorc down.. it takes about 3 seconds to kill him

if we could just get a 50% less damage on sorc when its activated i would be more than happy..

[Ven]

It was way 2 good in retail.. we all know that.. but now in 3v3 like i said... just gun the sorc down.. it takes about 3 seconds to kill him

if we could just get a 50% less damage on sorc when its activated i would be more than happy..

you have basically just repeated your original post and again i will have to disagree.
again i will bring up the example of the farseers rune armour making her unable to move and vulnerable, she cant even retreat during its duration and she starts out with less health than the sorc.

i dont think it needs to be changed. if done right your opponent will never have the opportunity to focus down your sorc while they're dealing with their own termies/ogryns/seer council wrecking their army.

[Flash]

You certainly can deal with subjugation, it has short-range and you can kill the sorceror. So you could just avoid getting subbed in the first place or keep extra ranged firepower around to deal with the CS once he subs something.

If that was the definition of uncounterable then the power fist would be uncounterable too, but it isn't at all, it's only uncounterable once you already failed to counter it and let them get off flesh over steel and have the HP to finish off your vehicle.

You're correct. It would be better for me to say that subjugation reduces player agency, and in an rts that is not favorable. hence the changes from retail. I would argue that until the recent changes to flesh over steel it was also in the same boat.

[Magus Magi]

At MINIMUM, tome of subjugation can be thought of as a targeted ten second stun. That's damn good no matter what game mode you are in. Add to that the ability to move the subjugated unit, waste their abilities, and attack their allies.

I think that the ability is fine as is. Certainly in terms of the mechanics. The energy cost/cooldown might be a different story, but I'm not a dedicated Sorcerer player so I can't really say.

[Torpid]

It isn't the same as a stun though because in the period in which you use it you cannot slaughter the squad you subjugate if you wish like you could vs loyalist terminators that are stunned by sweeping doom when positioned next to 8 bloodletters.

It can indeed still lead to suicidal death though, maybe even in scenarios where an ordinary stun wouldn't lead to such and compared to any ordinary stun it does last considerably long. Then again it is a T3 wargear and costs 50 power as well as 150 req. That's super expensive.

I'm not sure where I stand on its status atm. To be honest I didn't even mind it when it let you damage the squads you subjugated; I guess I just want the CS to be OP so I fight him more and see less CLs

[Cheah18]

I would think subjugation would make more sense were it only to make the unit start attacking its allies, rather than giving actually control over it. It could last longer and the unit could be damaged then.

Just my two pence

[Ven]

I would think subjugation would make more sense were it only to make the unit start attacking its allies, rather than giving actually control over it. It could last longer and the unit could be damaged then.

Just my two pence

i could see that happening.

[Magus Magi]

It isn't the same as a stun though because in the period in which you use it you cannot slaughter the squad you subjugate...

True. I regret my phrasing. I should have said that it is the equivalent of removing a squad from play for 10 seconds. Still good in my book, but to be fair, not as good as stunning that squad would be. With the strategic potential it has, I still wouldn't change its core mechanics.

I might not be troubled by some sort of defense buff on the Sorc for the duration though, or again, a mana/cooldown type change. Depends on whether the general consensus really is that the ability needs help. If it is, then by all means let's get it help.

[Ven]

I might not be troubled by some sort of defense buff on the Sorc for the duration though, or again, a mana/cooldown type change. Depends on whether the general consensus really is that the ability needs help. If it is, then by all means let's get it help.

sigh

again i will bring up the example of the farseers rune armour making her unable to move and vulnerable, she cant even retreat during its duration and she starts out with less health than the sorc.

and thats why a defensive buff wouldn't make sense.

[Batpimp]

It was way 2 good in retail.. we all know that.. but now in 3v3 like i said... just gun the sorc down.. it takes about 3 seconds to kill him

if we could just get a 50% less damage on sorc when its activated i would be more than happy..

It is only really an issue in 3v3 as you stated and the game is balanced with a 1v1 perspective. I think it is fine as it is.

Keep the sorc in the middle of your units or behind them and wait for the enemy to push.

[Daddy]

It was way 2 good in retail.. we all know that.. but now in 3v3 like i said... just gun the sorc down.. it takes about 3 seconds to kill him

if we could just get a 50% less damage on sorc when its activated i would be more than happy..

Why not just increase the cast range of the spell? This will help the sorcerer cast at a safer distance.

[lolzarz]

It was way 2 good in retail.. we all know that.. but now in 3v3 like i said... just gun the sorc down.. it takes about 3 seconds to kill him

if we could just get a 50% less damage on sorc when its activated i would be more than happy..

Why not just increase the cast range of the spell? This will help the sorcerer cast at a safer distance.

And after that, how would we counter subjugation? Increasing the range lets him hide further behind the chaos army, which prevents units from reaching him. That removes the current counter which is to, you know, GIB THE BASTARD.

[SirSid]

I use it on terminators then waste thare telport behind my army and walk them toiwards my base totaly ignoring them and focosing on the rest of the army. Army gets driven off ( cuz no terms to suport them ) then i kill the terms out of position with thare telport on cooldown.


Still strong wargear.