Dawn of War Codex

As an longtime IG player and being someone who mains the LG (i used to main CL back in retail) i've decided to post a few suggestions i have in order to adress some issues that i think the comander/race have.

My intention with this post is to hear opinions and have a discusion i dont have an intention of proposing and outright change its just a compilation of ideas or thoughts that i've had while maining this hero.

First lets start with a point that i think is quite strong with this particular hero.

The leman russ drop is incredibly strong is 3vs3 not only you get a leman russ instantly anywhere on the field, you also dont pay any power which makes for a very powerfull strategy getting minimum t2 upgrades units (or directly skipping it) and instantly getting a LR since as the power requirement is 0 its affordable as soon as you reach t3. This can be quite devastating if you know that the enemy is going for a dred or some kind of vehicle play and you have already some map advantadge with your t1 play, getting a leman in mid t2 can be extremely hard to deal for some factions.

I would suggest at least giving some delay time to the drop since its literally instant and it can cause massive damage depending on the situation. Even in t3 fights where the enemy is trying to save their tanks/units.

Also perhaps should cost a bit of power in order to avoid getting it so fast upon reaching t3, i think that any amount between 20-60 power would be reasonable since the red cost was already decreased from retail (275-200). Requisition wise the amount is perfect, since also lets not forget that it cost 200 red, so increasing the cost to 600 req like it was on retail woudnt fix the problem of the fast tech and also would make the global less appealing (since that extra 100 req is worth the elite crew upgrade) and also saving 200 req in t3 as IG can be very useful in order to save for a RR.


The commisar retinue member while being usefull in my opinion its not worth the cost for what it provides and i will try to explain myself why:

First as all retinue members it can die and its somewhat expensive to re-purchase , especially considering that you will most likely want to get the storm troopers in order to soak fire for you retinue/LG so the bleed can be quite considerably if you are opting to get him. The main reason for getting this member is for the refractor field ability that it gives while being good for tanking with the lord general and giving protection to some units its quite mediocre when we have in cosideration a few things:

-First and foremost it cost 60 energy which is very expensive having in mind that nearly all of the other abilities cost 45 and its impact its far stronger than the 50% ranged damage reduction in a 8 radius. For the same energy price its more useful to give a medipack to a squad since it cost the same energy you dont risk blobing near the LG and get caught on some nasty AoE and its also good for tanking damage since you can use it just before you start losing models.

-The cooldown its also suprisingly extrmely long taking 90s in comparison to all others which usually are arround the 60s. If the cooldown where short at least it could had some use for using the LG more solo and using that ability to win ranged fights but since the duration is only 20 sec and the cooldown is so long its not worth it. Also using it for protecting squads its a bit poinless since the enemy can just wait out the effect and since the CD is so long it wont be used until the next engagement.

-The pasive trait of increasing damage while being very nice its not sufficient enough to justify the purchase in my opinion. The only situations that i would go for the commisar are the following:

1) When fighting FC or apo with ASM: I usually get meltas and then comie for extra damage and use the shield for protection aganist the scouts/tacs. Due to the short range and decent damage of meltas and the extra melee damage of the commie it works fairly well in order to counder their melee, especially considering that you are not taking barely any damage from range 50% reduction from the refractor and the modifier of range damage decrease while you are in melee. Also the energy cost its enough for activating fight harder and the refractor.

2) Protecting a tier 1.5 squad from range damage usually zoans, snipers or flamers. Pretty self explanatory it allows to negate bleed on expesive reinforcement in units such as catas spotters or HWT since you usually have only 1 you can afford them to fit them in your refractor bubble while not having your entire army blobbed exposed to AoE.

Having in mind those aspects i find it extremely situational to use since i usually go for these options to get more or less the same effect. Also the natural counter is just focusing your comander and with all the retinue its just usually better to retreat rather than taking loses since it can be very expensive if you have to reinforce a lonely LG. 2x Strom, 1 medic , 1 comie = 50+50+50=150/10 with vox would be 200/15 but if you are going for a commisar play you will rarely also get the vox as well i think.

I nearly always use the medic so i will instead use medipacks in all my squads to absorb some damage, the energy cost is the same you can give it to allies and you dont have to use the ability in the moment of the fight so the energy usage can be more efficient since you are always using it and not allowing it to fill the bar.

I will get any other weapon/armor to either increase my damage or absorb some, since all wargears from the LG do exactly that and they ofc dont bleed and the ability you get from them is far superior to the refractor field.

Grenades/Stabilizers/Flak: Aproach the enemy faster to recieve less damage/ move away. Heal while fighting and also affects allies. Outright damage reduction and KB imunity

Melta/Sniper: More DPS for both the LG and for all nearby infantry not just the comander.

I think adding another passive trait like extra energy or health regen to the retinue would do him very well and make him more viable. Also reducing the energy cost or cooldown could be benefitial since IMO its not worth it at its current state.

Finally i would also like to adress that with the inclusion of spotters the carpace armor its usually prety useless in comparison with the others since you already can control supresion teams with manticores, barrages, spotters or ol reliables and charge or outrange them with other wargears so it makes it very unattractive to use considering that the other 2 armors are way better. I think that the ability should give some ranged damage resistance more in line similar wargears like the storm and shield. Historically this wargear was used with ogrins to counter setup teams but with the inclusion of spotters and also having plenty of tools to control supresion now its not worth it to get it.

Im posting this in another post in order to not make a huge wall of text:

The scaling of the lord general its also a bit mediocre since its more or a supportive hero rather than fighter. While gaining extra health damage and energy it doesnt add to the fighting power of the LG in late T3 you mainly rely on supporting an army and using his abilites since lategame i think even fully upgraded would lose to any hero in the game so its somewhat lackluster if you lose some army to a nuke or a double or something as it has few other abilities that can suport allies and its mostly your own army so usually you try to use him as a backcapper. I think it could do with a T3 wargear of any description to help that situation especially having in condideration that IG has already esclusive very fun T3 wargear for the other 2 heroes. Also could favour a bit the meta of IG of just getting more lemans or kasr.

Thoughts in short form, don't expect much.

The LR drop is not only powerful in 3v3 but in all game modes. It probably costs no power atm due to the IG T2 being fairly power heavy. An argument could be made to make the LR drop cost about 50 power.
(What I don't understand though is the venerable dreadnought call in costing 50 power and 100 red more while being an inferior unit compared to the LR.)

I get the commissar retinue member whenever I can. He's very cheap and makes the already very tanky LG so much more tanky, while also boosting the ranged damage. It's amazing ^^

The carapace armor is still useful. There are more things than suppression teams alone that can suppress your units. Like doomblasts, banshee shouts, jumping raptors, mind war (on your ogryns), etc. Now your units can't be crowd controlled by those things.

As you said, the LG is a support hero and he does that very well. He's still a very potent ranged damage source. He scales just fine imo. He's not a single powerhouse like some of the offensive commanders can be, but no support hero is.

I see where you're coming from on everything... But I think he's pretty well balanced atm and fills his role quite well. The only thing I can see possibly deserving a tweak is, perhaps, the melta upgrades AV damage might get a little more dps. But meh

Cheah18 wrote:I see where you're coming from on everything... But I think he's pretty well balanced atm and fills his role quite well. The only thing I can see possibly deserving a tweak is, perhaps, the melta upgrades AV damage might get a little more dps. But meh

Im not saying he is not balanced i just said that perhaps could do with some small tweaks.

the LG is already very powerful, and extremely tanky basically healing himself for 1/3 of his HP every few seconds due to retinue reinforcement, hes VERY difficult to take down in T1. all of his weapon and armor choises are very powerful. retinue i think could perhaps use a tweak, the commisar as you said is a little meh HOWEVER thats only by himself. combine the commisar with a weapon upgrade and the LG starts melting stuff. im not sure how this would be tweaked.

Ven wrote:the LG is already very powerful, and extremely tanky basically healing himself for 1/3 of his HP every few seconds due to retinue reinforcement, hes VERY difficult to take down in T1. all of his weapon and armor choises are very powerful. retinue i think could perhaps use a tweak, the commisar as you said is a little meh HOWEVER thats only by himself. combine the commisar with a weapon upgrade and the LG starts melting stuff. im not sure how this would be tweaked.

Sorry, and I don't mean to derail, but on the codex entry for the LG(http://dawnofwar.info/index.php?page=elite/lord_general), how do you determine his DPS?

I'm not pro/good at this by any means, but the reason I ask is because everything looks rather low compared to some of the other commanders. Do I need to add in the DPS done by his retinue members, or is the DPS under the Sniper Rifle the DPS of the squad? If the LG gets the Melta gun, and two of his retinue get the melta as well... do I triple the DPS value that is given for the LG Melta?

For his default loadout, add up the bolter and his two retinue members' lasguns; for Meltas, triple the DPS of the melta; for the Sniper, add the DPS of the sniper to his two retinue members' lasguns; for the grenade launchers, triple the DPS of the grenade launcher. All of the weapons listed are individual weapons, not the sum of any others.

And for all of those, just add the DPS from any additional retinue members.

Fr33man1800 wrote:As an longtime IG player and being someone who mains the LG (i used to main CL back in retail) i've decided to post a few suggestions i have in order to adress some issues that i think the comander/race have.

My intention with this post is to hear opinions and have a discusion i dont have an intention of proposing and outright change its just a compilation of ideas or thoughts that i've had while maining this hero.

First lets start with a point that i think is quite strong with this particular hero.

The leman russ drop is incredibly strong is 3vs3 not only you get a leman russ instantly anywhere on the field, you also dont pay any power which makes for a very powerfull strategy getting minimum t2 upgrades units (or directly skipping it) and instantly getting a LR since as the power requirement is 0 its affordable as soon as you reach t3. This can be quite devastating if you know that the enemy is going for a dred or some kind of vehicle play and you have already some map advantadge with your t1 play, getting a leman in mid t2 can be extremely hard to deal for some factions.

I would suggest at least giving some delay time to the drop since its literally instant and it can cause massive damage depending on the situation. Even in t3 fights where the enemy is trying to save their tanks/units.



Also perhaps should cost a bit of power in order to avoid getting it so fast upon reaching t3, i think that any amount between 20-60 power would be reasonable since the red cost was already decreased from retail (275-200). Requisition wise the amount is perfect, since also lets not forget that it cost 200 red, so increasing the cost to 600 req like it was on retail woudnt fix the problem of the fast tech and also would make the global less appealing (since that extra 100 req is worth the elite crew upgrade) and also saving 200 req in t3 as IG can be very useful in order to save for a RR.

I'm sure this is a bigger problem for team games than it is for 1v1. Besides I actually find that, especially in team games, requisition is far more valuable to me in T3 than power. I mean you're throwing yourself at huge fights more often and as IG end p meatshielding for your allies quiet a lot. Even if you lose your own power farm in T1 it isn't the end of the world since your allies have theirs still. So whenever I use the leman drop I just end up with disproportionately high amounts of power and mess up my eco. The only reason I use it is to get rid of the build time or to snipe enemy vehicles (it comes down faster than a heavy turret builds).

Then, lemans in general seem stronger in team games. This is because in team games the linear nature of the map means you can better afford to merely sit in one location with your HWT/storms/spotters/GM and leman all blobbed up ready to take on 3 armies at once. In a 1v1 you're going to be forced to move around a lot more as your opponent tries to take your natural power, capture your natural VP, flank round the side, pincer you between multiple sources of AV and AOE and so on.

I think it is just something that has to be accounted for when you are playing vs IG anyway; when will they get the leman/baneblade and how will I deal with it. Unless you plan to base-lock them during early T2 but even then in a team game that is risky because so long as one lane of his allies still has a power farm the LG can drop that leman; he can't do that if you baselock him with a big T1 and lots of early T2 upgrades in a 1v1.

Frankly if you are not getting anything in T2 and they go and purchase a walker vs you then they are just being silly. It's like building a walker+transport in T2 when you have every reason to believe the enemy FC is going for a power fist, a librarian (so VoT FC and GoI las-devs) and has ASM for the melta bomb. If you didn't see that coming you deserve to lose, it isn't because that build is OP, you just responded completely inappropriately.

Fr33man1800 wrote:The commisar retinue member while being usefull in my opinion its not worth the cost for what it provides and i will try to explain myself why:

First as all retinue members it can die and its somewhat expensive to re-purchase , especially considering that you will most likely want to get the storm troopers in order to soak fire for you retinue/LG so the bleed can be quite considerably if you are opting to get him. The main reason for getting this member is for the refractor field ability that it gives while being good for tanking with the lord general and giving protection to some units its quite mediocre when we have in cosideration a few things:

-First and foremost it cost 60 energy which is very expensive having in mind that nearly all of the other abilities cost 45 and its impact its far stronger than the 50% ranged damage reduction in a 8 radius. For the same energy price its more useful to give a medipack to a squad since it cost the same energy you dont risk blobing near the LG and get caught on some nasty AoE and its also good for tanking damage since you can use it just before you start losing models.

-The cooldown its also suprisingly extrmely long taking 90s in comparison to all others which usually are arround the 60s. If the cooldown where short at least it could had some use for using the LG more solo and using that ability to win ranged fights but since the duration is only 20 sec and the cooldown is so long its not worth it. Also using it for protecting squads its a bit poinless since the enemy can just wait out the effect and since the CD is so long it wont be used until the next engagement.

-The pasive trait of increasing damage while being very nice its not sufficient enough to justify the purchase in my opinion. The only situations that i would go for the commisar are the following:

1) When fighting FC or apo with ASM: I usually get meltas and then comie for extra damage and use the shield for protection aganist the scouts/tacs. Due to the short range and decent damage of meltas and the extra melee damage of the commie it works fairly well in order to counder their melee, especially considering that you are not taking barely any damage from range 50% reduction from the refractor and the modifier of range damage decrease while you are in melee. Also the energy cost its enough for activating fight harder and the refractor.

2) Protecting a tier 1.5 squad from range damage usually zoans, snipers or flamers. Pretty self explanatory it allows to negate bleed on expesive reinforcement in units such as catas spotters or HWT since you usually have only 1 you can afford them to fit them in your refractor bubble while not having your entire army blobbed exposed to AoE.

Having in mind those aspects i find it extremely situational to use since i usually go for these options to get more or less the same effect. Also the natural counter is just focusing your comander and with all the retinue its just usually better to retreat rather than taking loses since it can be very expensive if you have to reinforce a lonely LG. 2x Strom, 1 medic , 1 comie = 50+50+50=150/10 with vox would be 200/15 but if you are going for a commisar play you will rarely also get the vox as well i think.

I nearly always use the medic so i will instead use medipacks in all my squads to absorb some damage, the energy cost is the same you can give it to allies and you dont have to use the ability in the moment of the fight so the energy usage can be more efficient since you are always using it and not allowing it to fill the bar.

I will get any other weapon/armor to either increase my damage or absorb some, since all wargears from the LG do exactly that and they ofc dont bleed and the ability you get from them is far superior to the refractor field.

Grenades/Stabilizers/Flak: Aproach the enemy faster to recieve less damage/ move away. Heal while fighting and also affects allies. Outright damage reduction and KB imunity

Melta/Sniper: More DPS for both the LG and for all nearby infantry not just the comander.

I think adding another passive trait like extra energy or health regen to the retinue would do him very well and make him more viable. Also reducing the energy cost or cooldown could be benefitial since IMO its not worth it at its current state.

I don't think any of these buffs are justifiable. For a start the commissar upgrade tends to work best alongside a solo general as it makes him both more tanky and increases his melee damage quite considerably and his ranged damage a large chunk too. With the commy and sarge the LG has over 1400hp and is doing 34dps in melee, 50dps in ranged while stationary and while moving. Plus the commissar grants that -50% ranged damage taken ability which makes the T2 LG able to solo most non-HI ranged squads and he also gets the 70 melee skill which makes it fairly trivial to beat squads like banshees/sluggas from T1 that have no nob/exarch upgrade after shooting them up on approach.

Having a hero like that is very useful in 1v1 for capping purposes - especially when he can still contribute to engagements through occasionally ability use - especially med-kit deployment since he doesn't need to be in the fight when they are actually used. If you time his ability cooldowns and solo-capping well and combine the two in a 1v1 he can be very hard to deal with. By using the LG as a capper it allows you to have catachans as part of your main force. This gets rid of melee woes, especially in T2, which otherwise can trouble the LG and of course having catachans as part of your main force helps deal with set-up teams too.

I think the commy is a very good upgrade the LG for his price now. He was nearly a no-brainer before in 1v1 and he was kind of like a T2 hero version of eternal war for CSM in team games but now he can be re-purchased for half price he's even better than that there too.

Also, I wouldn't really use the commissar to try and deal with zoans - zoan attacks come in too quick and needing to constantly have your LG right next to your guardsmen/storms seems like what the artillery would want and is not really worth the -50% damage taken. Instead I'de just use a chimera+stabilisers with GM to counter artillery, or the vox operator + stabilisers for storms/ogryns.

I don't really see why the LG should scale into T3 either. Most heroes don't. The apothecary isn't doing much in T3 combat-wise and the techmarine's weaponry doesn't get any better come T3 than it was in T2 so if the TM is performing great in T3 he must be pretty damn OP in T2. The force commander scales insofar as he retains his vehicle stun and his infinite knockback from the PF/TH respectively. Two unique aspects to his wargears that help him scale like that. Most heroes though don't scale into T3. While the LG is a support hero in-game and he does indeed have many supportive abilities he ends up playing more like an offensive hero in that he is the tanky hero for IG and he is the one you most often see in melee combat with ranged squads funnily enough. Often when I play LC/IQ they just become anti-melee but the LG has the extra tankiness to be a melee unit that serves as anti-ranged. Regardless he scales as well as most other heroes including the LC and the IQ - purgatus and emperor's wrath are about as useful as range-buffed kasrkin but cost far more, yet are more build-versatile to compensate. IG is a race that is made for huge investment in T2 anyway and if you do invest hugely in it you will find it is rather easy to beat most T3s of the other races with the exception of space marines (god-damn flamer terminators + libby combo) and eldar (fire prisms + rangers + wraithguard, nuff said).

Oh and in terms of a dps boost the melta gun upgrade/sniper upgrade aren't doing much. With the melta upgrade your dps stays about the same, but you get a better damage type, but you also become more reliant on ST models in your retinue which means anytime you lose one your dps takes a massive hit. The sniper rifle is a very negligible upgrade if it can even be called that. 60 damage a shot with such a slow-fire rate compared to the defaut bolter? That things bleeds less models than the standard bolter. Nobody in their right mind would spend 90 req/30 power for such a weapon upgrade if it didn't come with the ability it does.

Fr33man1800 wrote:Finally i would also like to adress that with the inclusion of spotters the carpace armor its usually prety useless in comparison with the others since you already can control supresion teams with manticores, barrages, spotters or ol reliables and charge or outrange them with other wargears so it makes it very unattractive to use considering that the other 2 armors are way better. I think that the ability should give some ranged damage resistance more in line similar wargears like the storm and shield. Historically this wargear was used with ogrins to counter setup teams but with the inclusion of spotters and also having plenty of tools to control supresion now its not worth it to get it.

Do you suppose that it should be a toggle ability like storm-shield or not? If you do then I see that as being tremendously overpowered in combination with typical guardsmen spams or even stormtroopers/those shielded autocannons of death IG get. If not then it would overlap hugely with:

Incoming!
45
The General sets his men in a defensive formation, decreasing incoming ranged damage to your infantry in radius 35 by 30% and preventing knockback for 20 seconds. Affects the Lord General and his retinue. 60 second cooldown. Requires the Flak Jacket upgrade.

The only change I would to see to carapace would be for it to also increase the lord general's max energy naturally by about 50 OR grant increased energy regen alongside the suppression immunity during the ability effect, just to give it a little something extra and unique and it would have good syergy with catachans and stormtroopers, both of which tend to synergise best with the LG anyway over HWTs/ogryns which definitely do better alongside the IQ/LC.

Otherwise I think this wargear is fine. It has great synergy with ogryns and is practically mandatory vs eldar since even wraithguard themselves can suppress. Sometimes it is better not to commit to a manticore or spotters and to just get this wargear as it allows you to get more combat-capable squads while simultaneously dealing with the suppression. This is especially true in 1v1 where the on-map presence of real fighting squads is far more important than in 3v3 for map control concerns.

Nice post really shows u know your stuff and i agree that the tank drop needs a change as im sick of it being dropped early by people skipping tier 2 and setting up bunkers with it on the front-lines as it makes them more unkillable. increasing the cost by 50 power at least is a fair step. Well rounded post all the same

Well, I mained the lord general for a long time, and I mean like a really looong time, but despite that my LG play is really one of my least versatile heroes. I could play him in my sleep but only with my own playstyle, so I don't want to come off the wrong way when I'm gonna disagree with you.
(I lol'd when I read that introduction I just wrote but felt it might be necessery anyway.)

Firstly I was surprised to see you call leman drop good. I always found myself struggling with req and floating power as lg and more often than not I stayed in T2 even in long games so I never really saw the point of wasting red just to get that leman on the field a bit earlier. That's mostly from 1v1 perspective tho.

Now the subject I really wanted to talk about; the commissar retinue member. In approx 90% of the games he's my first purchase when I hit T2. He allows the LG to function like a proper ranged dps hero would for a short while in early T2 and take on upgraded T1 squads on his own. With commy LG can beat pretty much every range squad, range hero and >60 melee melee skill melee units in 1v1 during that short window of opportunity. During that time LG can do what he never really can otherwise, that is act independently. He can freely ninja cap, force off lone squads or even gen bash if not attended to (takes him about as long to bash with commy as a lone melee squad would if left alone). This effect is further aggravated by that I usually out tech my opponents to T2 as LG and have commy come out before they have their T2 squad leaders or upgrades. I rarely rebuy him tho if he dies after the moment for him to shine has passed. Again this is mainly from 1v1 perspective.
As for the refractor field ability. It used to grant 85% range damage reduction so the cooldown and energy costs made sense, but it was then deemed imba by the one and only Tex, so he used his influence over bC to have it nerfed to 55%... while adjusting the cooldown or energy cost was never even concidered. ;P. It is still a decent ability tho when your LG isn't decked out, but it's true that when he has a few upgrades it's rarely worth it to spend energy on refactor, mainly for stuff like eating a nade with you supressed gm or rushing them against an autocanon.

Carapace armor still has it's place imo. It's always been a niche upgrade and with spotters it might be even more niche but it still makes sense in certain situations. When you have strong infantry based army of 2x fully upgraded gm + some catas/storms/ogryns or a chimera you don't necesserily want to get a manticore just to deal with one or two supression teams, and you don't want to buy spotters in T2 so carapace armor is a logical choice. Or when the opponent has 2+ supression teams and an artillery team you might want to get a carapace armor on top of manti/spotters. Despite being avaivable in T1 it's always really been a T2 upgrade tho, especially with 175/35 power price tag (not sure if that's been changed in elite). Also on a side note nade launcher + carapace buffs on ogryns really used to wreck eldar, but that was in the past .

After deliberation, I find myself agreeing with the OP's sentiment. Maining IG, I can't actually think of an MU where I would take him over Inq or LC (in 1v1). I think the issue is more internal balance in that case.

I have always found him at least as hard to deal with as the other IG commanders tbh.

Nurland wrote:I have always found him at least as hard to deal with as the other IG commanders tbh.

+1

got my LG to lvl 10 the other day, he had 3k HP which is a little under what the CL can get at lvl 10. GK terminators were smacking on my LG from the start of when he started capping. he finished the cap with 1/3 of his HP left. that combined with his support wargear is why he's equaly as hard to deal with as the others.

LG is the 3v3 hero. IQ/LC are superior in 1v1 but inferior in team games. Only exception would be vs eldar. The LG is very helpful vs eldar both for his great early pressure and dps in t1 and his suppression immune ogryns + super super fast ogryns in T2. I don't really think the difference is so big though as to warrant buffing the LG.

'Far Superior' but not big enough to warrant changes?

Maybe I shouldn't have said far superior

I'll give you that and edit the post haha.

Its alright, you have a lot to learn about DoWII that's all. You're improving though.

(OMG TORPID GAVE ME ONE THIS IS THE BEST DAY OF MY LIIIIIIIFFFEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Its strange why nearly all people though i was sugesting to buff the LG i didnt said that at any point. In fact quite the contrary I menctioned that IMO LR drop is a bit too strong without any delay. The only "buffs" i suggested where that some pieces of wargear are a bit redundant cosidering that the LG has already stronger options and i didnt say at any point that they where useless or NEEDED a buff only said that they could use some very small tweacks to make them more atractive to use. As i believe i said in the first post i think that the comander itself its quite balanced.

Cheah18 wrote:After deliberation, I find myself agreeing with the OP's sentiment. Maining IG, I can't actually think of an MU where I would take him over Inq or LC (in 1v1). I think the issue is more internal balance in that case.

Funny, cuz I would almost always take the LG over the other 2 in any game mode ^^


@Freeman
First of you say you didn't suggest any buffs, then right after that you say you suggested some wargear "buffs" ...
How do you tweak something so it's more attractive without buffing it? °_O That's like impossible
In your original post you say that the LC upgrade is not wrth the cost, that highly suggest you want it buffed,
otherwise you wouldn't be making such a statement. No wonder people get "confused".

Dark Riku wrote:

Cheah18 wrote:After deliberation, I find myself agreeing with the OP's sentiment. Maining IG, I can't actually think of an MU where I would take him over Inq or LC (in 1v1). I think the issue is more internal balance in that case.

Funny, cuz I would almost always take the LG over the other 2 in any game mode ^^


@Freeman
First of you say you didn't suggest any buffs, then right after that you say you suggested some wargear "buffs" ...
How do you tweak something so it's more attractive without buffing it? °_O That's like impossible
In your original post you say that the LC upgrade is not wrth the cost, that highly suggest you want it buffed,
otherwise you wouldn't be making such a statement. No wonder people get "confused".

+1 to what riku said.

all of the IG commanders are very powerful. while the LG does less damage out of the gate his health is ridiculous. if you ask me he needs a general nerf of some kind. the retinue reinforcement is just silly imo; hes just one massive dps check that some races cant do in the first engagement, and later on in the game he becomes a "wont bother shooting at" kinda thing because hes tanky as fuuuck. i think the LG is fine out the gate, but with weapon upgrades he might a little silly; especially as the comissar buffs his damage for only 10 power.

Ven wrote:all of the IG commanders are very powerful. while the LG does less damage out of the gate

Wrong. LG does more damage out of the gate than commy or inq can deal to half decent opponent. His dps gets more and more negligible the longer the game continues while both commy and inq have the potential to turn into very tanky high dps heros later in the game.

Ven wrote:i think the LG is fine out the gate, but with weapon upgrades he might a little silly; especially as the comissar buffs his damage for only 10 power.

Weapon upgrades themselves are the last thing you should concider nerfing for LG... nades are easily dodgeable, sniper barely affects his dps and actually makes him redundant vs some targets due to damage type and meltas while having decent dps and damage type have short range and fall far short on many other range dps heroes in the game.

Now if you want to discuss the abilities these weapons grant, that's a whole different story..

Ven wrote:later on in the game he becomes a "wont bother shooting at" kinda thing because hes tanky as fuuuck.

He might be "tanky as fuuuck" when fully upgraded but unlike all other heroes in the game he bleeds. Losing upgraded retinue models is expensive and can be vital for engagements at hand. Unlike other heroes LG is also often forced to retreat at around 50% for the same reason, to not lose retinue members, while every other hero in the game retreats at much lower hp.

Toilailee wrote:

Ven wrote:all of the IG commanders are very powerful. while the LG does less damage out of the gate

Wrong. LG does more damage out of the gate than commy or inq can deal to half decent opponent. His dps gets more and more negligible the longer the game continues while both commy and inq have the potential to turn into very tanky high dps heros later in the game.

Ven wrote:i think the LG is fine out the gate, but with weapon upgrades he might a little silly; especially as the comissar buffs his damage for only 10 power.

Weapon upgrades themselves are the last thing you should concider nerfing for LG... nades are easily dodgeable, sniper barely affects his dps and actually makes him redundant vs some targets due to damage type and meltas while having decent dps and damage type have short range and fall far short on many other range dps heroes in the game.

Now if you want to discuss the abilities these weapons grant, that's a whole different story..

Ven wrote:later on in the game he becomes a "wont bother shooting at" kinda thing because hes tanky as fuuuck.

He might be "tanky as fuuuck" when fully upgraded but unlike all other heroes in the game he bleeds. Losing upgraded retinue models is expensive and can be vital for engagements at hand. Unlike other heroes LG is also often forced to retreat at around 50% for the same reason, to not lose retinue members, while every other hero in the game retreats at much lower hp.

my point is that hes tanky, and still has respectable dps. ESPECIALLY with weapon upgrades.
AND he heals in the form of reinforcing on the field

i wouldn't mind this so much if it wasnt for his ridiculous supportive abilities granted to him by his weapons and his armors, and to a somewhat lesser degree the retinue members.
due to the LG not having an accessory slot, and having retinue members instead it means that invesments in weapons and armor for him isnt such an impact on his economy than other commanders, somewhat.

Retinue members over accessories is worse since they bleed and you have to rebuy them whereas accs are a one-off purchase. Of course the price of this is accounted for in their cost, that's why the commissar and sarge cost 10 power despite being absolutely great upgrades - over the course of the game maintaining their abilities will cost you more than that.

He definitely is the best performing in T1 except vs nids perhaps where the power melee and good AOE damage of both the IQ and LC is probably more useful and maybe also SM where I find the holy pyre very helpful vs ASM and the HOTW very helpful vs devs. Med-packs are most useful in T1 where double-hp GM/catachans take ages to kill. His high ranged dps is most useful in T1 or early T2 with the commissar retinue member.

And his weapon upgrades don't even make him do more dps. The sniper leaves his dps unchanged. The GL only does more dps to stationary units in cover otherwise it just misses and the meltas do less dps while having shorter range. Only the commissar makes him do more dps, although it is significantly more and takes him up to 50ranged dps from 31.

Of course the whole time he is a hero that bleeds you and by bleeding he also is feeding your opponent experience throughout the game.

On the reinforcement vs tankiness, try to think of it as paying req to heal a unit in the field. Is it THAT attractive a characteristic?

Cheah18 wrote:On the reinforcement vs tankiness, try to think of it as paying req to heal a unit in the field. Is it THAT attractive a characteristic?

+ giving your opponent experience and red each time you do it too.

Fr33man1800 wrote:Its strange why nearly all people though i was sugesting to buff the LG i didnt said that at any point. In fact quite the contrary I menctioned that IMO LR drop is a bit too strong without any delay. The only "buffs" i suggested where that some pieces of wargear are a bit redundant cosidering that the LG has already stronger options and i didnt say at any point that they where useless or NEEDED a buff only said that they could use some very small tweacks to make them more atractive to use. As i believe i said in the first post i think that the comander itself its quite balanced.

I kno but how else are we gonna reply to the OP other than saying we agree or disagree, why we (dis)agree and thus we think X should(n't) be buffed. :/