Slaughter is way overperforming

[Cheah18]

I'm not a little whiner (I don't think). I really hate posting in the balance section and feel I do too frequently. But Slaughter is killing me. It is slaughtering me.

Last night I had interceptors with justicar and mind blades losing in melee to slaughter csm, and they even specialed my ints. I am sitting there shaking my head like... nah uh. It was against Crewfinity who may or may not support this claim as I did not record

In terms of actual balance: Slaughter is a good idea that gives the AC something worthwhile, especially in light of ATSKNF and Justicar's abilities. But COME ON it is WAY overdone! They become a dedicated melee AND dedicated ranged unit for a while. Why wasn't it made just to make them a melee unit for a certain time in order to counter something? Why were they given the switch option? Its just too much to be able to counter multiple things at one time without any drawback (like ATSKNF's speed drop and unique cooldown mechanism).

It also seems to make the KCSM upgrade way less functional as it fulfils the melee role sufficiently: KCSM is now only a -stronger- melee unit with chase and stuff, and people would rather retain the ranged damage while still having a competent/potent melee option in the same unit.

More things added to Chaos because yeh they are so in need of buffs right now... (trolololol)

Sorry if this is poorly constructed but I am riling right now.

[Slaaneshi Cacophony]

I think it's great that CSM actually have some versatility now. I find myself pretty much always buying the AC right as I get into T2 instead of going for a mark. They have to be supported if you're planning to use Slaughter for melee attacks and they synergize great with tics for that but I don't think it's over-performing since they'll still lose to dedicated melee specialists like Sluggas w/ Knob. I still think KCSM are viable even after Slaughter has been considered because of the melta pistol and the battle regeneration they now have. I usually stick with regular CSMs w/ Slaughter for infantry-based races like Orks or Eldar to tie stuff up or mop up low health melee units.

[Crewfinity]

I agree that slaughter is overperforming. Its a cool ability and I like the versatility it adds, but in its current state its too much. especially with nurgle worship, the health regen they get when they use melee weapons is nuts. and the cooldown is fairly short on the ability, so you can use slughter and switch to melee weapons for the passive health regen in between fights. this is even better than the battle regen that KCSM have because its on demand.

[Nurland]

I think the damage is probably a bit too much.

[Torpid]

The effect is most certainly overpowering. I shat my pants the other day when I experienced it for the first time and my shees got slaughtered fleeting into 2 CSM who started to shoot at them with slaughter activated then both forced melee, it was a serious wtf moment. I guess that goes to show how influential melee skill truly is for melee units when dealing with those pesky space marine ranged squads.

[Dalakh]

Two CSM squads with aspiring champion killing one banshee squad isn't out of this world with or without slaughter tbh.
Maybe if the slaughter ability was loaded by taking damage it would make people happy. I dunno.

[Torpid]

I personally would prefer if it was charged through killing models. Preferably associated with their red cost. that would be cool

[Ven]

I personally would prefer if it was charged through killing models. Preferably associated with their red cost. that would be cool

agreed.

i think slaughter is perhaps a little silly, but dont forget they loose that when they get a mark, and usually in some MUs; a mark would be better. slaughter also has a reasonably long cooldown.

going off topic here a little; the strike squad for GK has that ability basically in T1 being able to switch between melee and ranged, especially with a melee special attack AND being able to buff them with mind blades. with their ranged damage recently buffed it makes them very silly. with psybolts in T2 they basically become a permanently slaughtered CSM squad. have you seen a strike squad used well? back in 2.3.0 before their ranged buff i used to basically solo nob squads with them, they just kept knocking them back and eventually forcing them to retreat. i even did the same thing with CSM with slaughter when they had their infinite melee skill bug.

but you know just as well as me that melee fights can and will be random, just like you said a mind bladed interceptor squad should logically win that fight, but they didn't. in most cases they would have though due to the melee skill buff AND the power melee justicar.

going back to slaughter; i dont think the ability needs to be changed itself, however i do think that either its cooldown can be increased or it could be charged by killing models or something like torpid said. however i think the whole killing models thing might be a bit broken, in some MUs such as CSMvsSM its going to be hard to get models. so i think if something like this was to be implemented, i'd have to be damage done rather than models killed.

[Torpid]

Damage done would hugely disadvantage healing heroes like the apo, who we all know is far too UP, so that would cause Caeltos get assassinated so don't say such a silly thing...

Erm, seriously though, that's why the amount that it charges up the cooldown with should be based on the red of the model killed. Red of models is associated directly with how hard they are to kill. I don't know whether that would be easy to implement but it would make it harder to use slaughter and make it a bit closer to the FAR less useful ATSKNF.

[Broodwich]

I'm curious as to why its not charge based on something, considering it, like ATSKNF easily change the tide of battle with smart activation. Especially considering it doesnt even have a long cooldown time, like the ss slow ability, which is far less potent.

My only guess is that Caeltos is using the same method other balance teams i've worked on use: make something new OP to get people to use it, then bring it back to reasonable levels.

Guess we'll see

[Surprise Attack!]

I personally would prefer if it was charged through killing models. Preferably associated with their red cost. that would be cool

+1

Tbh, if it were too difficult to code, we could really just make it cost red like Waaaagh! costs red. That would intrinsically be tied in with how many things you're killing and you wouldn't need to factor in the charging aspect.

i think slaughter is perhaps a little silly, but dont forget they loose that when they get a mark, and usually in some MUs; a mark would be better. slaughter also has a reasonably long cooldown.

But at least now there's a point to getting an AC!

[Cheah18]

This went better than expected I thought I was going to get destroyed on this one

[Superhooper01]

Hm i feel double csm using it at the same time can be called op, but i really like the ability, simple because it allows u to keep the csm in a role where they aren't melee all the time (mok) or pure range (mot) allowing them to be more versatile and allow u to sometimes not always go for the same thing or spend the req and power for a mark. I could see the damage dropped a bit to stop people just clicking it and getting a win in a engagement but the ability is working so hope it isn't changed to the point were getting a mark is always the best thing to do:(

[Sub_Zero]

To be honest it surprises me that it absolutely doesn't require any energy to use/other special circumstances (like poor tacs who can only activate their ability when they took enough damage and their ability has one serious disadvantage - speed penalty). No drawbacks, low cooldown, no energy/no special conditions to use and you activate it against absolutely any target - either for ranged damage or melee damage. That is a badly designed ability indeed.

Tbh, if it were too difficult to code, we could really just make it cost red like Waaaagh! costs red. That would intrinsically be tied in with how many things you're killing and you wouldn't need to factor in the charging aspect.

Good thinking here, I approve. However red is gained through your own loses. But it is still something if nothing else can be done.

Edit:
Man, those numbers are fucking nuts. I didn't think it was that much. Who needs khorne marines now?

[Dalakh]

I personally would prefer if it was charged through killing models. Preferably associated with their red cost. that would be cool

Yes I definitely had that in mind when I wrote my post but I decided to stay in the realm of known stuff. It would be more chaosy to have it tied to damage delt.

That being said I just checked the Codex and the fact that they deal more damage than KCSM is definitely off to me. Granted it's not power melee but that doesn't affect every matchup. In my opinion KCSM should be superior to unmarked CSM in every way as far as melee goes, ability or not.

Now I'd rather see and adjustment to the melee dps of slaughter (somewhere between basic and kcsm) before considering limiting the ability availability. The added melee skill is a big boon already (and the charge), 35 dps on top of that is definitely overkill.

[Cheah18]

ATSKNF (love typing that) is defensive, requires damage to charge, slows speed, increases defense. I'd like if slaughter like increased speed and damage (but to a way lesser extent than it does now *cough 35dps cough*), but maybe increased damage taken? I can imagine CSM leaving their cover for a crazy charge. I dunno just an idea

I don't know enough about chaos balance to comment too accurately but I'm really not sure about this swapping them. It seems so cheap being able to change. I don't know why its not just an equip melee for duration effect. Because then there is actually a timing element like ATSKNF.

[Sub_Zero]

That being said I just checked the Codex and the fact that they deal more damage than KCSM is definitely off to me. Granted it's not power melee but that doesn't affect every matchup. In my opinion KCSM should be superior to unmarked CSM in every way as far as melee goes, ability or not.

INDEED! I saw that and I got mad a bit.

[Ven]

That being said I just checked the Codex and the fact that they deal more damage than KCSM is definitely off to me. Granted it's not power melee but that doesn't affect every matchup. In my opinion KCSM should be superior to unmarked CSM in every way as far as melee goes, ability or not.

INDEED! I saw that and I got mad a bit.

i'd also like to point out that khorne marines get a 1hp/s WHILE IN COMBAT while the slaughtered CSM get 1.5hp/s with their melee weapons out PASSIVELY.

[Slaaneshi Cacophony]

That being said I just checked the Codex and the fact that they deal more damage than KCSM is definitely off to me. Granted it's not power melee but that doesn't affect every matchup. In my opinion KCSM should be superior to unmarked CSM in every way as far as melee goes, ability or not.

INDEED! I saw that and I got mad a bit.

i'd also like to point out that khorne marines get a 1hp/s WHILE IN COMBAT while the slaughtered CSM get 1.5hp/s with their melee weapons out PASSIVELY.

Wow, I actually didn't know that. Triggering Slaughter during downtime with some Nurgle worship will be nice

[Crewfinity]

yeah, i mentioned that earlier. with nurgle worship their health regen is absolutely nuts. they can heal a ton between combats or even while in melee they can win against dedicated melee squads with the health regen, dps, and increased weapon skill. just too much for a passive ability, it needs a tradeoff of some sort. I dont even get marks now unless i'm against a bunch of heavy infantry.

[Ven]

yeah, i mentioned that earlier. with nurgle worship their health regen is absolutely nuts. they can heal a ton between combats or even while in melee they can win against dedicated melee squads with the health regen, dps, and increased weapon skill. just too much for a passive ability, it needs a tradeoff of some sort. I dont even get marks now unless i'm against a bunch of heavy infantry.

thats pretty much what i do yea. i think that was slaughters purpose though, was to give CSM an upgrade option vs light infantry as BOTH of their marks are most effective vs heavy infantry. but right now, its a little stronk for plague champion w/ worship, and it has no downsides unlike ATSKNF has a downside, the movement speed decrease. i think if slaughter had some kind of downside it would be a bit better.

i thought of some disadvantages that could feasibly be implemented, didnt think of any solid numbers though:

#1: Squad takes a small ammount of DoT damage for 10 seconds or so, to make it somewhat similar to catalyst?

#2: Weapon accuracy is reduced for ##% amount for 10 seconds then goes back to normal.

#3: cannot benefit from cover while in slaughter?


just a few things i thought of, i think either of them could be implemented. i dont think a movement speed is viable as it would make the whole mechanic of drawing swords useless, just kite away from them.

[Cheah18]

I really think it should just give them chainswords for a duration and increase melee damage and skill. Doesn't have to be fancy. So you can fight off units that come close and who think will be winning the fight until you do, or do some suprise damage when forcing melee with tacs or something. Activate it at the right time and you will catch your opponent off guard and do some damage. Activate it at the wrong time and you are stuck with a melee unit and have lost ranged potency. Kind of the Chaos mirror of ATSKNF.

Why they have this overpowered, high damage, huge-regen, super-adaptable, no-drawback ability is unfathomable to me.

No drawbacks, low cooldown, no energy/no special conditions to use and you activate it against absolutely any target - either for ranged damage or melee damage. That is a badly designed ability indeed.

This

[Surprise Attack!]

So I had a chance to see Crew use slaughter tonight and I got a chance to use slaughter(albeit not as effectively) a couple of times in a team game, and honestly, I think I'd rather have the "Draw Swords!" part of slaughter in place of slaughter. Basically, get rid of the health regen stuff, and just give CSM a "Draw Swords!" ability when they get an AC.

I mean really, it is the real reason you use slaughter anyway.

[Slaaneshi Cacophony]

Get rid of their passive health regen for the ranged stance and reduce the health regen from 1.5 hp/s to maybe 1 and increase the battle regeneration for KCSM to Slaughter's current 1.5hp/s

[Nurland]

I wouldn't waste slaughter for healing up between fights. The extra 1,5 regen is nice but not really worth sacrifing the damage buff esp with PC as you can heal them anyway with mucus, worship or shrine.

Generally I think the ability should keep the AC melee damage as it is and boost melee skill to 70 while giving raptor melee stats to other models. After that we could see if it needs readjusting. Not sure about the health regen. Probably deserves a reduction as well as the ranged damage bonus.

[Indrid]

I think it lasts too long at the moment. 70s cooldown is not too bad when the ability lasts 25s anyway.

[Ven]

thing is that the duartion is a little finicky, if its not as long then you might be in a melee fight with lvl 1 ASM and quite likely winning... then the ability runs out and u gonna get boned.

like i said before, all i think the ability needs is some kind of drawback. maybe even give the weapon switch a small enegry cost so its more of a decision if you want to switch between melee/ranged?

[Dark Riku]

I thought tacticals were supposed to be the jack of all trades unit :/

Get rid of their passive health regen for the ranged stance and reduce the health regen from 1.5 hp/s to maybe 1 and increase the battle regeneration for KCSM to Slaughter's current 1.5hp/s

No, just because slaughter might be over performing doesn't mean you should suddenly buff KCSM.

[Ven]

I thought tacticals were supposed to be the jack of all trades unit :/

Get rid of their passive health regen for the ranged stance and reduce the health regen from 1.5 hp/s to maybe 1 and increase the battle regeneration for KCSM to Slaughter's current 1.5hp/s

No, just because slaughter might be over performing doesn't mean you should suddenly buff KCSM.

yea, i think KCSM are in a perfect spot right now. i think a better option would be to reduce the health regen of melee slaughtered CSM to bring it in to line with KCSM health regen.

[Slaaneshi Cacophony]

I thought tacticals were supposed to be the jack of all trades unit :/

Get rid of their passive health regen for the ranged stance and reduce the health regen from 1.5 hp/s to maybe 1 and increase the battle regeneration for KCSM to Slaughter's current 1.5hp/s

No, just because slaughter might be over performing doesn't mean you should suddenly buff KCSM.

It's to give people some sort of an incentive to spend the extra power and fully commit to KCSM. Outside of a small amount of melee damage and a melta pistol, it's nearly always more ideal to just get the AC and call it a day instead of a mark. I know it's been working out for me that way so far. 1.5hp/s passive health regen vs 1hp/s regen that only occurs in battle for a squad that cost 5 more power to get out on the field is a bit ridiculous