Dawn of War Codex

Happy New Year Everybody!

I humbly present to you, my idea to make Imperial Guard more competitive in 1v1s without drastically affecting their performance in large team games.

Premise:

When the Imperial Guard was designed as a faction for Dawn of War 2, Relic attempted to do something new. They wanted to introduce a faction that was viable in multiplayer, interesting to play, but yet also completely distinct from the other races. They succeeded.

However, while the Elite Mod fixed many of the imbalances associated with Imperial Guard, I still had a nagging feeling that quite frankly, the Guard was missing something else. To me, there had to be more than double sentinel play to make IG viable in certain circumstances. These issues mostly revolved around Imperial Guard's inability to counter setup teams properly, which was fixed in Elite mod through the introduction of the Artillery Spotter.

This being said, however, the Imperial Guard still lacked a unit that could do something else other than maintain a solid wall of flashlights. To compound this issue, a serious lack of mobility meant that IG players would often find themselves stuck in defense with no way to mount a serious attack other than from the front.

After some thought, I realized that the IG did have jump troops, though Elysian Droptroops are very, very different from Assault Marines. Those familiar with the lore will know that Droptroopers are equipped with "grav-chutes" that are only able to control the speed of descent, and not actually powerful enough to boost/jump said infantry into the air again. I wanted to replicate this as much as possible, while creating a way to introduce this particular unit that would be both:

1) Unique, and thus in-line with the IG's theme of being a different army.

and

2) Fair, as it is not the purpose of this mod to include content, but to add to balance.

All of this being said, I do believe that such a unit has a place in the IG roster, which is why I am introducing this unit.

Without further ado, my proposal:

Please note that everything suggested here is subject to developer approval. I will not feel bad if my idea is completely shot down, feel free to give any criticism you like.

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Elysian Droptroop Squads cannot be produced via the Bastion. Instead, they will be a call-in unit via the Artillery Spotter. In T2, the Artillery Spotter will be able to add a squad leader, called the: Recon Officer for 75/25. The Recon officer will die last, add a negligible bit of damage to the Artillery Spotter squad, and allow the Spotter squad to detect infiltrated units. This also gives IG an alternative to using Catachans as spotters, but not giving them detection until T2.

For 300 Requisition, and 100 Red, the Spotters w/ Recon Officer leader can call down a Drop Troop Squad from Valkyries circling the battlefield above(the same Valkyries responsible for providing Rocket Run in T3) that is both within range 65(mortar/smoke shell range) and revealed from the fog of war.


Assault Airdrop Support
Mark a location with smoke for a precision airdrop.

So, basically, in order to get a squad of Elysians down, the LZ(landing zone) has to be clear, which is the Recon Officer's job. After he "smokes" the LZ, the Elysians land rather rapidly and have a +2 speed bonus for 3 seconds after they land.

Elysians can reinforce at the Bastion for 30/model.

Elysian Droptrooper Squad



Alternate Icon(inspired by idea of helmet/respirator cast aside, common motif in science fiction)[also reflective of how these droptroopers are to be used - on suicide missions they are unlikely to return from]:



Squad of 5 models, same damage stats as unupgraded stormtroopers, except Elysians do not level or regenerate energy.
180 HP/model, 0.5HP regen, 100 Energy, 0 Energy regen, 50 melee skill, same +red as stormtroopers

Droptroopers will have two abilities, both of which cost 50 energy. The first is a "light" melta bomb that snares for 7.5 seconds and does only 1/2 the damage of a normal melta bomb. The second is a frag grenade similar in damage to the stormtrooper grenade. Unlike the stormtroopers, however, both of these abilities will have range 20(stormtrooper frag grenade is range 30). Both abilities will have no cooldown, balanced by the fact that Elysians do not regenerate energy. Both abilities will be ground targeted "skillshots" as well - the player has to predict where the target will be and throw the Droptrooper melta bomb in its path, for example.
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Why should you get Elysians?

Essentially, Droptroopers can be called down to chase down a fleeing vehicle or attempt to wipe an enemy squad. Doing so will require a bit of careful planning and some serious micro. For example, if I see my opponent's scout squad getting low and I wish to wipe this squad, I could bring in Elysians and use their speed to intercept the squad and place a grenade in their path. A troublesome Kdread that keeps getting ported out by the Sorc could be found by my spotters, and Elysians sent in to snare the Kdread with their skillshot melta bomb.

If my enemy gets triple shurikens and pens me in, I could use the spotter to shut down some of the shurikens, then drop Elysians behind enemy lines to perform further disruption.

All of this sounds rather OP...

Well, remember Elysians require the purchase of the Recon Officer for 100/25. To call down a squad, you need to spend 300 more requisition in addition to 100 red. Elysians don't get back up into the air afterwards, bleed rather hard, cannot be upgraded, don't level, and don't regenerate energy on their own. On top of all this, you need to have bought Spotters to begin with, which either means a delayed T2, or no Catachans.

What my unit does allow for, however, is a skilled player with exceptional micro to wipe squads and destroy vehicles that the typically ponderous forces of the Imperial Guard would have little chance of touching.

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I know this was a huge post, a big thanks to everyone who read it! A further note of advance thanks to the artists of the images I borrowed for my sample placeholder icons.

I appreciate the level of thought put into this, but I would never voluntarily get Droptroops. Not as is. It's not that it's OP, but rather than it's really UP imo.

300/0/100 for what is essentially vanilla stormtroopers with no infiltration and a weak non-sticking melta bomb? They have no specialized weapon so they can't follow up their snare, can't level at all, have exactly 2 chances to use any of their abilities because of no energy regen and on top of all that are accessible only from a fairly expensive upgrade for a t1 squad that is not always going to fit into your composition.

Stormtroopers already have a terrible cost/bleed and these Droptroops don't have the extra range or infiltration Stormtroopers have while not offering any other way to keep them from dying horribly.

-EDIT: I didn't notice that crazy health regen at first pass. Can't tell if that is just too silly high or if 180 infantry armor in t2 would make that a moot point due to alpha damage peeling off models before the regen can really kick in. My jury's out on that.-

Is the idea of this unit to help counter vehicles or to dislodge setup teams? Honestly, as is both of these jobs can be done by the kits that Stormtroopers have. I feel that you should specialize this squad more into one role or the other for them to actually be able to be worth the investment that you're talking about.

Anti-setup in T2 route:
I'd look at the autarch drop as an example of a call in unit that can disrupt a backline. Keep the cost, but make the call in also drop a small creeping barrage on the location and then call in the Droptroops. Lower the bleed cost from 30 to 25, add in normal health and energy regen and change the frag and melta into a single stun nade ability for 60 energy. No damage, just like the Knob stun bomb. The stun nade will help in the anti-melee role as well since you likely didn't get catachans in t1 and there's a fair chance that your sentinels aren't going to last much longer (vs chaos/eldar comes to mind as matchups that destroy sentinels in t2 and have good synergy with their setup teams). Spotters + Droptroops should be the only anti-setup you'll need for the rest of the match at that point imo.

Anti-vehicle in T2 route:
Thinking this will resemble the infiltrated stormtrooper callin with the Inquisitor too much and that IG has plenty of AV as is which is why I don't really like this option as much. Still, you can again lower bleed and bring back energy regen, but keep the weak melta as is, don't change the callin and allow them to pick up missile launchers so that they're longer ranged, but can't fire on the move and don't snare like Meltastorms and LasHWTs do. Something a bit different and obviously adjusted from the SM missile launcher. Ok with the weak melta in this one since you're also adding long range AV in this one and Droptroops and missile sents and/or whatever else you got should be plenty of AV. Basically, you're looking at way more fragile, but faster Plague Marines with the snare separate from the launcher.

^These are just a couple initial thoughts I had when I was trying to figure out a function for these units. I'm not saying that Droptroops are exactly necessary, but I'm willing to entertain the idea for now

Nice write up Suprise Attack.

What I think is that the concept of a unit that is designed to disrupt and harass the enemy is already embodied in the stormtroopers, who can infiltrate, get upgrades and level up. Drop troops are really not necessary. Between stormtroopers, sentinels and chimeras, Imperial Guard aren't in serious need of additional mobility.

I like the idea too, but I did not undertake such in-depth thoughts which I fairly like, but in my opinion are a bit too complicated to be implemented. I'd suggest something like Atlas, similar to the Autarch Drop in T2 and / or as a T2 unit that functions in a way the warp spiders do, but with a set up time to dislodge, since they must be put back on the ship and then dropped back into battle. That would be a rather long set up time though, even longer compared to that of the bloodletters. As a unit, I would take a recolored kasrkin squad with inferior weapons and dps, with upgrades for the different grenades and / or the missile launcher Atlas suggested and not initially equip them.

The cherry on top would be, if they could only be put back airborne when they are back in base after retreat, but I do not know whether that would be technically possible or not.

Got to admit i feel u have rounded this up well and i agree that double sent is something the guard often have to do it seems. Reading your notes i found myself agreeing will alot of what u said and liked the idea. Seeing what imperial guard players like yarrick,freeman etc think is important but generally like the costs and reasoning behind this idea so far.

this idea sounds perfectly fine, but i dont know why they wouldnt level. it all sounds for all intended purposes really underpowered.

i think if anything would need to be implemented like this, it'll need a serious look at their balance/stats/function etc.

Hi all, a big thanks to everyone who gave my idea due attention, especially those who posted and commented with ideas and feedback!

I have some explaining to do, but before I do so, please take into consideration that I am neither part of the development team, nor do I have any special insight into what the development team is planning/has planned. As a result, please treat my statements as opinions not unlike your own.

Concerns

1) Elysian Droptroops are underpowered

Atlas and others have raised the apt concern that Elysians are underpowered in the state I have introduced them in. Personally, I disagree on these points other than on the issue of cost - 300/0/100 seems a bit much, but I have an alternate way of addressing that which I will mention later on*.

The reason why I disagree with Elysians being underpowered is very simple: The Imperial Guard's army has little chance of wiping enemy squads, compared to every other army. I feel that part of the reason why some feel that these Droptroops are UP currently is because I was not as articulate as I should have been in my first post. The primary goal of introducing these units is to add a highly mobile unit capable of squad wiping.

The Imperial Guard army already causes massive bleed to the opponent when played properly, and the Elysian Droptroops are essentially a high-risk/high-reward unit that you can call in to instantly wipe a more expensive squad. They can be used as a setup team counter simply by dropping them behind a setup team and doing decent dps, but their main use is for chasing down fleeing enemy squads that the IG's army composition has very, very little chance of finishing off by itself.

While the IG's forces are excellent at holding the line and causing casualties, rare do guardsmen "wipe" a squad of sternguard. Contrast this with Banshees or Bloodletters, both of which have huge squad wipe potential due to their mobility as well as their melee damage.

Squad wiping in the midlate game is hugely damaging. For example, if I told you that you could use the Artillery Spotters to drop a squad that comes down after a quick delay(same as mortar/smoke shell delay) and gets a speed boost for 3 seconds after landing and can throw down two frag grenades without cooldown in the path of retreating level 4 Vanguard Veterans, suddenly, the 300/0/100 pricetag doesn't look that underpowered anymore.

This, of course, is on top of the fact that the Imperial Guard is already very difficult to dislodge from its position.

2) Recon Officer Squad Leader Upgrade for Artillery Spotters is too expensive
I disagree, I feel that 75/25 in T2 is a decent and acceptable price for the Recon Officer. He adds some damage to the Spotters, makes the squad more survivable, in addition to making them a detector unit.

3) Why don't Elysians Level?
I think it would be OP if Elysian Droptroopers leveled, as their squad wipe potential is so high. They would gain an obscene amount of experience quickly, which would mean that the amount of energy they have would go up as well - all of a sudden you're not throwing 2 frag grenades, but 3 at the same time.

4) "Light" Melta Bomb
Honestly, the IG has a lot of AV options. Between HWT, Missile Sent, Ogryns, Stormtroopers, Manticore, Leman Russ, and the BB, I felt that having a fast unit that could be dropped within 65 Range(btw this is huge) of the Spotter squad so long as you had LoS of the "dropsite" have two full-powered melta bombs was too much.

Remember that the intent of this was never to give the IG something that works extremely well in 3v3, as I believe IG is already one of the strongest team game races, if not the strongest. In a team game, your droptroops will get slaughtered behind enemy lines if they try to double light-melta bomb a Nurgle Predator that managed to get away with 200 HP. But in a 1v1, this is not the case. You're paying 300 Req for a unit that stays on the field and 100 red to essentially guarantee a tank kill in some cases, as the rest of your AV can then move up even if the light melta bombs don't kill the Predator.

5) Too similar to Stormtroopers
I definitely see the concern, and it was actually a concern of mine as well.

However, Droptroops are faster than stormtroopers and do not cloak. They can drop two different grenades simultaneously, but have no follow-up AV damage, unlike Melta storms. Unlike stormtroopers, which need to be snuck behind enemy lines and essentially taken out of combat, Droptroops can be called into the path of retreating units/vehicles, upon which they possess a significant speed buff for a few moments.

They also have very different effects on the player, though the end goal in combat is to cause the opponent to mess up.

Coming out of cloak, stormtroopers rely on shocking the enemy with unexpected damage and causing havoc by diverting their attention from the main battle to another location.

Droptroops, on the other hand, drop from the air in a rather obvious way(the easiest animation I can see them put in is just a Valkyrie dropping a crate down). The arrival of droptroops forces the IG player's opponent to react to the landing or suffer damage and overloads their ability to micro the primary and secondary "fronts" of the battle.

*Alternate Way of Solving the Cost Issue

bountyhunter571 wrote:The cherry on top would be, if they could only be put back airborne when they are back in base after retreat, but I do not know whether that would be technically possible or not.

Credit goes to bountyhunter571 for giving me this idea!

After some thinking, I realized that something we could potentially do is add a "Refit & Resupply" ability to the Elysian Droptroops, which is essentially a "retreat" ability only after they get back to base, they enter the Bastion, and can be dropped by the Artillery Spotters for 150 Requisition(reinforcement cost of 5 squad members) and no red so long as one squad member survives.

You can either activate Refit & Resupply or just hit retreat and then R&R when the squad is back at base. Only difference is that hitting R&R will make them disappear the instant they get back to base, and you might need an additional squad for capping purposes, for example, so you might not want them to disappear immediately.

R&R will not give them any defensive bonuses, so they will be as vulnerable to melee and grenades in retreat path as they are running back.

Additional Concerns:

Atlas wrote:-EDIT: I didn't notice that crazy health regen at first pass. Can't tell if that is just too silly high or if 180 infantry armor in t2 would make that a moot point due to alpha damage peeling off models before the regen can really kick in. My jury's out on that.-

The HP regen of .5 is the same regen Stormtroopers have.

Stun Bomb suggestion for Droptroops
Good idea, but ultimately it negates the intention of having droptroops wipe squads. Again, my fault for not articulating this more clearly.

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Again, a huge post. A big thanks to everyone who took their time to read it! I really appreciate the feedback!

Surprise Attack! wrote:
3) Why don't Elysians Level?
I think it would be OP if Elysian Droptroopers leveled, as their squad wipe potential is so high. They would gain an obscene amount of experience quickly, which would mean that the amount of energy they have would go up as well - all of a sudden you're not throwing 2 frag grenades, but 3 at the same time.

thats not how unit leveling works. if they're dps is high enough to do that, then they will need atleast 40dps inferno per model to be able to gain levels as quickly as you think they would.

furthermore, i dont think it should be a spotter upgrade. spotters can already counter 2 setup teams by themselves if used well and you want to give them a 3rd option? especially with the R&R ability you proposed.

IG does not need any more setup team counters. they have some of the best setup team counters in the game and they have multiple of them.

i agree that IG cant wipe quite as many squads if they end up retreating, but im not sure if this is the answer.

i think a drop in for them to finish off vehicles wouldnt be a bad idea, like i said IG doesnt need another setup team counter, so i'd need to be a vehicle counter.

detecor on spotters is useless, as spotters will be too far back to detect any units, unless you want them on the frontlines which is not where you want them.

Thanks for the reply and thoughts!

I'll try to make do with my mobile's keyboard, but there are a few issues I wanted to address asap since they seem to rest on a few misconceptions I'd like to clear up.

First, the reason I wanted to attach the drop troops to the spotter was because I felt spotters were underused. After popping their abilities, IG players typically retreat them to safety.

As part of the meta-balance for my suggestion of including the drop troops and the recon officer, I want to force the player to keep his spotter squad on the front lines and potentially in danger. This offsets the advantages gained by this "buff" to spotters.

The other issue is the concern that the spotters will now counter setup teams too hard. It is true that the IG have many counters to setup teams, but it is unfeasible to expect them to possess all these counters at the same time.

For example, buying catachans and spotters means a 5 unit opener that does not scale very well into late game.

Finally, and again, this is due to error on my part, but I must stress that drop troopers CAN be used as a setup counter since they can be dropped behind a setup team, but their primary use is to chase fleeing vehicles and wiping squads.

You cant really say they are an additional ability to counter a setup team since there is no way someone would spend 150 req just to force off a setup team, let alone 300/0/100, when you can use spotter smoke/mortar for free.

As for leveling, I defer to your knowledge, but from what I understand, squads level based on how much damage they do, and double frags from drop troopers would be doing a total of 520 grenade damage.

If these guys were to level you would essentially be saying that a unit that has not been on the field and a target until it is dropped via spotter ability can gain experience only to then disappear off the field once again.

To me this is unfair as the opponent should have ample opportunity to take down something with potentially huge impact and the ability to gain levels. Taking it out to do damage then running away seems OP to me.

Surprise Attack! wrote:
As for leveling, I defer to your knowledge, but from what I understand, squads level based on how much damage they do, and double frags from drop troopers would be doing a total of 520 grenade damage.

incorrect. xp is shared through the units that did damage. so if these drop troops kill one model and the commander killed the rest of a setup team, both would get 50% exp from that unit. for a unit to get ALL the xp they would have to do ALL the damage and wipe the squad singlehandely. units also gaint exp from their distance from dying enemy units.

if a squad can wipe or do enough damage to level up that quickly, then the damage of the squad needs to be looked at, not the inability to level. 520 grenade damage is too much, that would make the unit OP and them not being able to level is never a solution to a unit being OP.

Surprise Attack! wrote:
First, the reason I wanted to attach the drop troops to the spotter was because I felt spotters were underused. After popping their abilities, IG players typically retreat them to safety.

spotters are the most cost effective T1.5 unit available to IG. its not underused. all good players use them, and i see them all the time. they do not need a buff.

if used correctly you will NEVER EVER EVER have to retreat them throughout an entire game. they are not part of your main army, they should never even be in enough danger to even consider retreating them.

Surprise Attack! wrote:
As part of the meta-balance for my suggestion of including the drop troops and the recon officer, I want to force the player to keep his spotter squad on the front lines and potentially in danger. This offsets the advantages gained by this "buff" to spotters.

then noone would purchase the recon officer. spotters should never even be close to the battlefield, even if they got this.

Surprise Attack! wrote:The other issue is the concern that the spotters will now counter setup teams too hard. It is true that the IG have many counters to setup teams, but it is unfeasible to expect them to possess all these counters at the same time.

For example, buying catachans and spotters means a 5 unit opener that does not scale very well into late game.

but a SINGLE SQUAD of spotters can counter TWO SQUADS of setup teams all by themselves, smoke shell on one and the other shell on the other. you dont need catachans aswell. so giving a 3rd option to a squad that already has 2, is out of the question imo.

Surprise Attack! wrote:
If these guys were to level you would essentially be saying that a unit that has not been on the field and a target until it is dropped via spotter ability can gain experience only to then disappear off the field once again.

To me this is unfair as the opponent should have ample opportunity to take down something with potentially huge impact and the ability to gain levels. Taking it out to do damage then running away seems OP to me.

what do you mean?

I'm really excited about this. You've put so much thought into it and presented it in such a credible way its easy to take seriously. Any sliver of hope for IG buffs (well, not even buffs really, but hole-plugging) gets me psyched.

Its hard for me to support a tier 2 addition however. IG tier 2 is, and I believe I speak for the reputable IG players out there (they correct me if otherwise), considered strong. It is dynamic and it does indeed allow for different tactics to grow out of your tier 1 base strategy. It is TIER ONE which needs help. The units themselves can be considered extremely useful; sents + GM repair is one of the game's most difficult things to deal with tier 1, and the Tier's anti melee overall is brutal. However, it is really quite one dimensional as you correctly point out: HOLD THE LINE, win the engagement, spread and back cap. The difference arises with double sent where you become more mobile and a little more annoying with capping, but the same is true when none of your units can stand alone and must rely on each other for support in engagements. IG's natural enemy is the PC/Apo due to their healing; the enemy doesnt bleed (taking away IG's most needed edge here), and can not be forced off the field [as easily]. This means that the opportunity to back cap is extremely hard to come by, and the opponent can just march through, while maintaining the field and healing, to your generators.

I recently proposed the side-grade T2 change of replacing the BW with a hellhound that is available to all commanders and at base. This seemed to get a lot of support and, without saying your suggestion is a bad one, I think it is more appropriate for tier 2. However, I would very much like to see something added for Tier 1. More often than not I find the game can be LOST as IG in tier 1, but not won. It becomes a struggle to survive into tier 2. And, as I mentioned, Apo and PC just run all over you (apo more). I was imagining Hardened veterans as a T1 addition with fantastic scaling potential, in bed but elysians are interesting too.

I'm sitting here in a very difficult spot because although I like your ideas, I can't think of a sufficient way for them to be implemented. IG T2 is sound at worst, very strong at best, and although Elysians would be badass, I don't really think they are needed in that regard. Their mechanics would be out of place in tier 1, unless someone can think a deep strike unit could be implemented there somehow.

Ven wrote:

Surprise Attack! wrote:
As for leveling, I defer to your knowledge, but from what I understand, squads level based on how much damage they do, and double frags from drop troopers would be doing a total of 520 grenade damage.

incorrect. xp is shared through the units that did damage. so if these drop troops kill one model and the commander killed the rest of a setup team, both would get 50% exp from that unit. for a unit to get ALL the xp they would have to do ALL the damage and wipe the squad singlehandely. units also gaint exp from their distance from dying enemy units.

I didn't know! Thanks for the clarification.

Ven wrote:if a squad can wipe or do enough damage to level up that quickly, then the damage of the squad needs to be looked at, not the inability to level. 520 grenade damage is too much, that would make the unit OP and them not being able to level is never a solution to a unit being OP.

Ven, I welcome comments and thoughtful responses, but you clearly have either not read the proposal thoroughly, or you are somehow forgoing some crucial information in your analysis of this. Please pardon my tone if I come across as annoyed.

I will address the issue with leveling later, but first, even if 520 grenade damage is a lot, you are paying 300 requisition and 100 red, not including the 75/25 to buy the Recon Officer necessary to allow you to use the ability to call in the droptroops.

You need to drop the droptroop squad in the correct position, then move them up so that they can throw the grenades on to or into the path of retreating units, after which they cannot throw more grenades since they do not regenerate energy. If you were sticking with my original proposal, this droptroop squad basically becomes a normal stormtrooper squad incapable of upgrading or leveling. If you wished to implement my alternative based on bountyhunter571's suggestion, you would basically need to spend more requisition just to "reset" the droptroop ability.

This is a lot of energy for a lot of effort. Is it very powerful? Yes. Does it require a lot of micro to pull off? Yes. Is it rather expensive for what it does? Definitely.

And that's how it is balanced. The leveling has very little to do with the balance, as I explained in the reply. Here:

Ven wrote:

Surprise Attack! wrote:
If these guys were to level you would essentially be saying that a unit that has not been on the field and a target until it is dropped via spotter ability can gain experience only to then disappear off the field once again.

To me this is unfair as the opponent should have ample opportunity to take down something with potentially huge impact and the ability to gain levels. Taking it out to do damage then running away seems OP to me.

what do you mean?

If these leveled and we are sticking to my original proposal which was just to make them a normal, unupgradable storm squad with no energy regen, the point is to make them dead weight.

If these leveled and we implemented the idea bountyhunter571 inspired, the it would either be a moot point if the level would not be retained after redeploying them OR it would be serious overpowered. Essentially you would have a unit that is only on the field when you want it to be on the field, which means that you can have a level 4 unit up your sleeve that you can deploy and get out at will. This unit doesn't cost popcap when it's not deployed and it doesn't have upkeep when it's not deployed, and if you don't want your enemy to have at it, then your enemy can't even get a chance to take it out because you won't deploy it.

I have no idea where you are getting the idea that I am using this as a way to balance the unit out.

Ven wrote:if used correctly you will NEVER EVER EVER have to retreat them throughout an entire game. they are not part of your main army, they should never even be in enough danger to even consider retreating them.

Surprise Attack! wrote:As part of the meta-balance for my suggestion of including the drop troops and the recon officer, I want to force the player to keep his spotter squad on the front lines and potentially in danger. This offsets the advantages gained by this "buff" to spotters.

then noone would purchase the recon officer. spotters should never even be close to the battlefield, even if they got this.

Sorry, but with all due respect, this is your opinion. Detectors don't need to be point blank next to the enemy in order to detect, so Spotters will not be in the kind of danger you seem to believe them to be in.

Ven wrote:

Surprise Attack! wrote:The other issue is the concern that the spotters will now counter setup teams too hard. It is true that the IG have many counters to setup teams, but it is unfeasible to expect them to possess all these counters at the same time.

For example, buying catachans and spotters means a 5 unit opener that does not scale very well into late game.

but a SINGLE SQUAD of spotters can counter TWO SQUADS of setup teams all by themselves, smoke shell on one and the other shell on the other. you dont need catachans aswell. so giving a 3rd option to a squad that already has 2, is out of the question imo.

You are replying selectively to only the portions of my posts that you want to reply to. I will requote:

You cant really say they are an additional ability to counter a setup team since there is no way someone would spend 150 req just to force off a setup team, let alone 300/0/100, when you can use spotter smoke/mortar for free.

Attaching the Droptroopers to the Spotters is not buff to the Spotters. This is why I had buff in quotes - that indicates the opposite is true. By attaching the droptroopers to the Spotters I am forcing the IG player to make a decision: Either give up your melee counter in T1, try to go for T2 Droptroopers via Spotters, or go for a really long T1 build.

I am not sure why you are fixating on this, because this is clearly not adding to the Spotter squad's setup countering ability, but rather, just using the Spotter squad as a necessary vehicle for delivering the Droptroopers.

I hope this clears a few things up.

ok that cleared a few things up, sorry if i sounded really aggressive in my post.

i must have missed the part where you said they didnt regen energy. sorry. i guess that might be considered balance depending on how much dps their lasguns do.

yes if there was an R&R ability, a level'd squad would be OP. but i was almost always talking about your original proposal unless i said otherwise in my previous posts.

Surprise Attack! wrote:Sorry, but with all due respect, this is your opinion. Detectors don't need to be point blank next to the enemy in order to detect, so Spotters will not be in the kind of danger you seem to believe them to be in.

detectors have to be in radius 30 to detect. the standard range for most ranged weapons is 38. so to be at the edge of detetion range, would put them in the line of fire.

the artillery spotters range on their abilities is 65. this means they'll have to be atleast twice as close, with your army, in order to detect units. so all in all, in most cases catachans will still be a much better and cost efficient detector unless you just need some kind of "counter initiation detection" in T2, which IG doesnt need as the sentinel already provides that

i'd also like to point out that catachans+spotters in T1; is not a heavy T1.

Ven wrote:i'd also like to point out that catachans+spotters in T1; is not a heavy T1.

Just completely incorrect semi-colon use

Surprise Attack! wrote:
*Alternate Way of Solving the Cost Issue

bountyhunter571 wrote:The cherry on top would be, if they could only be put back airborne when they are back in base after retreat, but I do not know whether that would be technically possible or not.

Credit goes to bountyhunter571 for giving me this idea!

Thanks for appreciation

First, I really like the thoughts you put into this and think the idea is amazing. But to be honest, I am afraid that with this implementation, as it stands, we would butcher some of the rules of the game. Getting an upgrade to get an additional squad would be afaik unique in the game. By losing the spotters you would lose 2 squads, not 1. And a Tier 2 or Tier 1 squad that does not level does - again, afaik - not exist yet. But the idea is to make squads level, the non-leveling does only exist for superunits that would gain to much strength if they leveled (i.e Baneblades, Landriders, Terminators etc.). And personally, I think its a pity that Terminators cannot level, e.g it could not be implemented yet in a balanced way that they may level. And lastly the not gaining energy back...

So I'm suggesting the following (I will not talk about numbers, just ideas).

Make it a weak T1 or T2 squad, a typical glasscannon, of 5-6 squad members, equipped with lasguns. They are deployed at base. They have an ability to put airborne, which costs an amount of red (lets say 50-75), which you can only activate in base. In T2, you may buy upgrades for either frag or krak nades and a disruption upgrade. The disruption upgrade does equip them with a very (very) small creeping barrage that disrupts and knocks back enemy units in the dropzone and does little to no damage. They can (ofc) only be dropped when you have LoS. Enough energy to throw one nade at retreating enemies. The nade has a low cooldown (like 5-10 secs), so if the squad levels to level 3 (for frag nades) or 4 (for krak nades), they may throw 2 nades.

I mean, you have to make decisions on this squad. If you put them airborne, they will not be available for field presence. If you are going for retreat kills, they are a glasscannon which has to retreat through an entire army to go back to base. If you can't finish the retreating squad, you just wasted 50-75 red. And, apart from the required micro, the costs and damage should be appropriate to make it not op.

Coming back to this topic after some time away has really made me sour on it. If Droptroops are supposed to be retreat killers, they just don't have the dps and damage type to do it and the speed bonus is such a temporary buff that it doesn't really warrant how weak they are post-drop.

The trends in good retreat killers in this game are that they're fast and have some damage type that ignores the retreat penalty. Nades and melee are the big ones that come to mind. As is, this has exactly 1 nade opportunity and if you miss it you just screwed yourself. Heck, even if you do wipe a squad you traded what 300/0/100 for 240/30? 450/0? Is 100 red worth 150 req or 30 power?

As I've said, post-drop they guys are just awful for that bleed. At least Stormtroopers can inflitrate or get bonus range for their cost. My opponent would have to be touched in the head to not focus them down first in major engagements and sending them to cap is entirely pointless since they have the same problems that STs and GMs have. These guys are worse than STs in literally every way except for 10 less bleed per model. I can't even call them cheaper since I think 100 red is more valuable than 100 req AND you have to buy a 75/25 leader for a squad that operates just fine without it.

IG T2 is pretty good as is, and there's very little these guys can add imo. Even the stun nade is pretty niche and is basically targeted directly at slow, tough units like wraithguard and terminators. I would just hate to try and balance them by just buffing all their stats too because we already have GM at all 3 tiers for IG and the last thing IG needs is yet another fragile shooty unit.

If ANYTHING, you could try and make them into some sort of support/map control like unit kind of like the sentinel but it can actually cap. Still, don't we already have catachans?

I just don't see how this will work as proposed.

Atlas wrote:If ANYTHING, you could try and make them into some sort of support/map control like unit kind of like the sentinel but it can actually cap. Still, don't we already have catachans?

I can so rarely afford to use catas to run around on their own because I need them to counter initiate and anti-blob for my main force. IG has a lack of capping ability

Love the idea, bring more iconic regiment in the IG army from the lore is fun (like what is done with the catachans).

I agree with what have been said : elysian shouldn't be too combat focused, they should be a mobile, autonomous unit for 1v1 caping, with a way to help finishing enemy squads or vehicles. With a hard cc for example (I liked the idea of a the kommando nob stun grenade).

To help them cap, running around on their own why not give them the "jump over terrain/cover" ability that jump squads or hormagaunts have ? They won't charge in melee so it will only help them move around faster.

I also like a lot the idea to give them a retreat and redeploy ability from HQ only.

But, even though it seems nice fluff like, I think they should be called from the global bar, or at least not from a squad.
Because it leads to some unnecessary weaknesses or complications :

1) They are dependent on the artillery spotter squad so your opponent know you won't have them if you don't have the artillery spotter squad. (it "forces" you into a particular build which is unnecessarily restrictive I feel).

2) Lets say you have called them from your AS squad, they do stuff, they retreat and go back to the sky from the HQ but BEFORE you can redeploy them your AS squad is killed, then what ? You lost two squads for one ? That's too risky I feel, so much req/energy/red lost too fast. Maybe you can redeploy them once you repurchase an AS squad ? That wouldn't be worth it imo. :/

I think the mechanics should be more simple so that balancing is easier.

Soooooo... deploy them without a squad to call them, make them jump over cover and the ability to redeploy once they go back to HQ (as said by bountyhunter571) ?

I'm not a pro so feel free to throw rocks at me and correct my small ideas ! (sorry for the wall of text)