Dawn of War Codex

Hi!

While conversing with some Elite mod colleagues, we came to the conclusion that Chaos is UP and that Raptors just plain suck.

I present my latest sales pitch: Warp Talons!

In T3, Warp Talons will be available as a squad upgrade similar to the "Meltaguns" upgrade in T3. Instead of equipping the Raptors with Meltaguns, the Warp Talons upgrade will instead turn the Raptors into a rapid, dedicated fast attack melee unit with slowish speed until they jump and go absolutely insane.

The Warp Talons upgrade will be similar to the Vanguard Veteran upgrade in that they will require the purchase of the squad leader, in this case, the Aspiring Champion. Warp Talons will be equipped with Power Melee lightning claws. What makes them different from Chaos Terminators?

Well after you get the Warp Talon upgrade, you lose all control(except when jumping) over your newly formed Warp Talon squad while the Warp Talons gain a 50% damage buff and 50% damage resistance!! Make sure you keep your distance, Chaos Sorcerer!



Unit stats
type infantry
squad 3(not typo, this squad is too batshit crazy for the aspiring champion so he left)

health 1550
courage 100
energy 260

Abilities
Jump, 65 Energy
Soar through the air and land at the target location, suppressing all enemies in a radius of 4 every second for 3 seconds (if the Raptors are armed with melee weapons). Raptors cannot be knocked back for 5 seconds after beginning the jump. Maximum range 50, minimum range 15, cooldown 1 second.

Tbh chaos need something extra in T3 - terminators cost 350 red and you don't always have access to that, yet the GUO/phobos are very expensive being super units and preds are hardly dedicated melee counters themselves. This leaves a role open for a cheap T3 melee unit, not quite as powerful as LC terminators/nobs/the like. These guys could fill that remaining role. I think it's an interesting prospect actually but will probably need further balance tweaking with regards to the stats themselves.

I would like to see Warp Talons in Elite, but Chaos already have 2 squads with high power_melee DPS: Bloodletters and MoK CSM. If someone needs a T3 upgrade IMHO it should be one of this two squads, because Raptors already have one upgrade to hunt vehicles.

I suggested long time ago a T3 upgrade/new squad of Possessed Marines with heavy_melee, which is something that Chaos lacks IMHO.

www.dawnofwar.info/forum/viewtopic.php? ... for+Chaos#

Bloodletters, khorne marines and accessible to every hero LC terminators. No more strong melee units, please!

raptors are fine as they are. someone has yet to actually tell me why they think they're UP.

HOWEVER, i 100% agree with torpid. chaos is lacking something T3 that isnt just a squad upgrade like the raptor meltas. (raptor meltas are amazing btw, dont take them away D:)

i would like to see some kind of T3 infantry that isnt terminators. but i dont think warp talons are it.

perhaps a squad of possesed chaos marines? a dedicated melee squad maybe with a small flame ranged attack, as y'know. they're deamons, and breath fire and shit.

similar to the ones in DOW1



maybe this could be model, as its already been made, pointed out by nikhael



or maybe a horror squad, a ranged base squad that can teleport. perhaps a little like warpspiders. idea also from DOW1



or maybe even a T3 subcommander, an aspiring sorcerer or an aspiring plague champion. chaos is really lacking in the subcommander department.

I think if Chaos were going to get any subcommander, the Dark Apostle would be the most interesting idea, since Aspiring heroes are basically just repaints of the Chaos heroes, and unless SM get a Chaplain, the Apostle is something which differentiates Chaos from SM more.

Possessed could be a pretty cool idea and harken back nicely to DOW I. Would they count as Daemons for the purposes of worship? I'd imagine so, and it'd be a nice way to keep Heretics relevant for Tier III units besides the GUO.

Chaos is... UP? i mean they're certainly not OP but... UP!?

I will not feel bad if we get rid of Bloodletters in exchange for Warp Talons.
Not even a little.

I'm gonna give this one a flat out no. At least as it is presented. Chaos already has two separate jumps squads and this t3 upgrade competes with Meltagun Raptors and Khorne Chaos Space Marines that are already fairly marginalized/niche as is.

Plus does Chaos really need more melee units in general? Tics, KCSM, Raptors, Bloodletters and LC Terms should be enough to cover their needs imo.

If we really do feel that Chaos t3 is missing something, how about a subcommander? It's something unique that Chaos doesn't already have. I'll admit I got no idea what function it would serve but I don't really want another powerful melee unit on a race that already has powerful melee options.

ChrisNihilus wrote:I will not feel bad if we get rid of Bloodletters in exchange for Warp Talons.
Not even a little.

Well no shit, you're Slaaneshi.

In all seriousness, we don't need Warp Talons. Chaos has ridiculous amounts of melee options; 2 jump units (raptors and bloodletters), 1 super-heavy melee unit (chaos terminators with claws), 1 light melee unit (heretics) and 2 elite melee units (Mark of Khorne Chaos Space Marines and Chosen Plague Marines). Their super-unit can melee, even.

I do agree there's a point to be made that Chaos has plenty of melee - they even have a generalist unit which becomes a melee squad (Aspiring Champion CSM with Slaughter).

I honestly think the Dark Apostle would be a really interesting thing to add. Focus him around worship, maybe bolstering the effectiveness of the worship in some way while he's around to reflect his oratory driving the Heretics in a frenzy of praise for the Ruinous Powers. Either that or give him abilities activated by proximity to worshipping Heretics or a shrine. Though I think the former better reflects the Dark Apostle's role unless the latter did stuff like a damage buff to allied units in a radius or something.

Worship is one of the Chaos faction's unique traits so a subcommander based around being strengthed by it and/or enhancing it would be an interesting thing IMO.

i think if a sub commander were to be added, it would need to augment something that chaos seriously lacks; mobility.

In fact, a Slaanesh subcommander was proposed long time ago. Hell, I even made it in a personal mod, it works AFAIK well and made a video to show him.

But It seems Caeltos have other priorities in his mind. :/

To be honest, there are enough models and material to do at least three different subcommanders for Chaos and 4 or 5 new squads.

Yeah but other factions need some love and attention too ^^

Chaos already has quite a versatile and large roster.

Dark Apostle would be great but i recall Indrid saying that there is a model for a slaanesh sub commander hidden somewhere which i was going to make a post asking for as it would allow for a sub-commander as allow chaos to have something to buff units or maybe heal etc just talking out loud their but i liked the idea of sorc getting a weapon to give him some sort of power-claw like commi

I think the next logical step, is to give the Chaos commanders Ascensions. Give the CL a demon prince and voila! You have a t3 powerhouse like the FC terminator.

Other than that, I don't think Choas is UP. It is a very strong race that relies on a strong T2. While it falls short to GK termy spams and carnifexes in t3, it does have a strong t3 that needs to be supported well to be effective.

Daddy wrote:I think the next logical step, is to give the Chaos commanders Ascensions. Give the CL a demon prince and voila! You have a t3 powerhouse like the FC terminator.

Other than that, I don't think Choas is UP. It is a very strong race that relies on a strong T2. While it falls short to GK termy spams and carnifexes in t3, it does have a strong t3 that needs to be supported well to be effective.

FC terminator is worse than upgraded CL 99.9% of the time. i wouldn't call the FC termie a powerhouse because of that.
im also pretty sure that a ascension would be a bit too much work.

i'd like to disagree that termie/carni spam is difficult to deal with as chaos aswell. chaos has some of the best anti-terminator stuff such as bloodletters, both marks for CSM, the list goes on. chaos also has the most AV options out of any race so they shouldnt if played well be under too much pressure from canri spams, lascannon havocs, plague marines, AC raptor, melta raptors, phobos, autocannon termies, pred.

if chaos were to get a new unit in T3. i'd need to fill a role that chaos currently cannot fill quite that well. for example a jump squad with higher than average speed or a subcommander that gives a speed buff to nearby units or something. chaos lacks mobility, a T3 unit that helps with would be idea.

lolzarz wrote:

ChrisNihilus wrote:I will not feel bad if we get rid of Bloodletters in exchange for Warp Talons.
Not even a little.

Well no shit, you're Slaaneshi.

I just don't like Daemons.
From my point of view they belong to just spells and globals.

I'm pretty sure that if the game would have came out after the new CSM Codex, we will have Warp Talons instead of Bloodletters and Maulerfiends instead of Bloodcrushers.
Maybe in Dawn of War 3... which i don't believe will came out any time soon.

Can we please not destroy the unique traits of every race? We don't want the races just to be copy pastes of one another.
Keep in mind that the disadvantages of each race should be there to balance the advantages.

Nurland wrote:Yeah but other factions need some love and attention too ^^

Chaos already has quite a versatile and large roster.

To be honest, I agree with you. But I would like to see some moar squads to Chaos.... I'm still waiting for that Daemonnettes

Ven wrote:if chaos were to get a new unit in T3. i'd need to fill a role that chaos currently cannot fill quite that well. for example a jump squad with higher than average speed or a subcommander that gives a speed buff to nearby units or something. chaos lacks mobility, a T3 unit that helps with would be idea.

A subcommander would be the best option, I think. Chaos have a lot of offensive squads, but very few support.

I think thats kinda their mo

Torpid wrote:Tbh chaos need something extra in T3 - terminators cost 350 red and you don't always have access to that, yet the GUO/phobos are very expensive being super units and preds are hardly dedicated melee counters themselves. This leaves a role open for a cheap T3 melee unit, not quite as powerful as LC terminators/nobs/the like. These guys could fill that remaining role. I think it's an interesting prospect actually but will probably need further balance tweaking with regards to the stats themselves.

what does SM have besides LRR and terminators for t3? predators! and chaos have them too.

Or IG? which they only get kasrkins and they're not always a good choice, they get lemans but then again, predators. And just like chaos, IG's t2 has got everything they need to deal with t3 stuff

What is chaos t2 lacking that makes chaos need a fifth unit in t3?

Bahamut wrote:
what does SM have besides LRR and terminators for t3? predators! and chaos have them too.

Or IG? which they only get kasrkins and they're not always a good choice, they get lemans but then again, predators. And just like chaos, IG's t2 has got everything they need to deal with t3 stuff

What is chaos t2 lacking that makes chaos need a fifth unit in t3?

Ok, I can't take it anymore. That initial post of mine in this thread was trolling. This was a sort of sokal affair. My reputation seems to precede my words which is worrying. If I say something that doesn't make sense you guys should call me out on it. I will try my very best to clarify why I think any particular thing and there is no reason for personal resentment just because two people disagree about balance.

Similarly I will call others out on their irrationality if I can be bothered. Unfortunately there is a lot of going around so I can't do so for everyone, only those who make the most potentially influential claims, hence why sometimes I seem to "bully" Riku or the like, it's not a hatred of the man, just that people automatically take his claims more seriously so I have a greater desire to point out their flaws when I see them than I do the desire to point out the flaws off some random person with 1 post on the forum.

TL;DR My first post was nonsense.Trolling. First time I've ever done that though.

Don't do this. There was no indication of you trolling in your first post.
For all we know you say you are trolling now just because you changed your mind or whatever reason you may have.

My posts are not irrational nor flawed, yours however ...

In all seriousness, some hints of trolling can be seen in Torpid's first post, because "cheap unit in tier 3" just does not make sense in general; you went tier 3 to get the big guns, which are expensive with no exceptions. Might be due to hindsight though.

Dark Riku wrote:Don't do this. There was no indication of you trolling in your first post. For all we know you say you are trolling now just because you changed your mind or whatever reason you may have.

I'm not so intellectually dishonest haha. Nevertheless yes, I could be trolling right now, I could be trolling in any situation or I could just be acting stupid. In either case it would be better if it was addressed as being silly and it was publically notified precisely what was silly about it. It's a good thing that you never know because it means you may have to think rather than just thinking "torpid said it, he's probably right", not that you think that Riku, but I've noticed others do.

Dark Riku wrote:My posts are not irrational nor flawed, yours however ...

I never said ALL your posts were irrational. Certainly not, but some of them just come out as assertions and don't justify themselves and sometimes you say things which don't follow from one another. That's where the irrationality lies and maybe its just a problem with you not specifying all of your thoughts clearly enough and "jumping" from one good idea to another good idea without explains how you get from the first to the second.

Why was the post unreasonable:
Not all race's T3s are the same. SM may get vanguards, LRRs, mainly one terminator variant and predators but all of those units themselves differ in function from the chaos ones. Should we give SM a new predator somehow akin to the nurgle pred? Or give chaos another LR variant which you can retreat to and is not helpful vs vehicles? Obviously not. Why would chaos need something like a seer council, just because they lack a seer-council-esque unit right now? Loads of races do. Vanguards are hardly comparable lol, they're a jump squad and seers are quite a bit better vs melee than vans. IG don't get such a melee squad, chaos doesn't, tyranids don't. Why don't IG? Well they have kasrkin to compensate and maybe they don't need amazing melee counter-initiation because all T1 they destroy melee and come T2/T3 if you can get in the lines of an IG player with melee when they have the level of DPS that they do you should be rewarded. Nids don't get one because they have genes who serve the role from back in T2. Chaos have bloodletters which are the equivalent of genes but not quite as good at CI so they get a jump. Still, under worship they're amazing CI.

Bahamut wrote:
what does SM have besides LRR and terminators for t3? predators! and chaos have them too.

Or IG? which they only get kasrkins and they're not always a good choice, they get lemans but then again, predators. And just like chaos, IG's t2 has got everything they need to deal with t3 stuff

What is chaos t2 lacking that makes chaos need a fifth unit in t3?

*cough* vanguard veterans *cough*

lolzarz wrote:In all seriousness, some hints of trolling can be seen in Torpid's first post, because "cheap unit in tier 3" just does not make sense in general; you went tier 3 to get the big guns, which are expensive with no exceptions. Might be due to hindsight though.

a lot of races have cheap T3 things. i personally think chaos is fine without the cheap T3 stuff as you can just get uber effective T2 stuff instead. but i dont think a subcommander would hurt, but it would really depend on what that subcommander did, and that is something i cant comment on.

Torpid wrote:
TL;DR My first post was nonsense.Trolling. First time I've ever done that though.

well that would be why people thought you were serious, if you've been serious to this point.

it wasnt an obvious troll, not as obvious as forests trolls which would be something like the following "Nids are perfectly balanced, but i think LA needs buffs. doesn't have heavy melee so its a really bad commander. Kappa."

If a cheap t3 unit is really such troll worthy material I'd like to direct you all to the D Cannon thread and weigh in your thoughts there

After a couple of nights sleeping on it, my opinion hasn't really changed on this. I offered the subcommander idea earlier as an alternative but really the Chaos roster is just fine. I think GK is the only real faction lacking units at this point and that's only in T3 imo. GK T2 can be reworked to solve some of the problems but they lack a general weapon platform at that stage in the game.

Torpid wrote:I never said ALL your posts were irrational. Certainly not, but some of them just come out as assertions and don't justify themselves and sometimes you say things which don't follow from one another. That's where the irrationality lies and maybe its just a problem with you not specifying all of your thoughts clearly enough and "jumping" from one good idea to another good idea without explains how you get from the first to the second.

I am saying that all my post are well thought out/rational/whatever you want to call it. I'm not going to waste my time and explain all of the details if it's not necessary. Enough time is already consumed this way. If you can't fill in the blanks yourself you probably don't belong on the thread then. Most things just fall on deaf/retarded ears anyway.

Ven wrote:it wasnt an obvious troll, not as obvious as forests trolls which would be something like the following "Nids are perfectly balanced, but i think LA needs buffs. doesn't have heavy melee so its a really bad commander. Kappa."

Cmon... :\

Nobody noticed something was amiss when I said that the AC left the squad because its too batshit crazy for him?