Forgive the stupidly long post.
caralimon wrote:I don't know, Eldar vs LA/CS or even Kommando Nob seems like a handicapped game from the start to me. Sure, Rangers are amazing and all, but being forced to buy them in certain matchups looks like a little victory already for the opposing player.
Their detectors role is itself a bit contradictory, since as long range snipers, they're supposed to stay behind their army picking models off from a far. But in those matchups, you kinda want them near the frontlines to detect any possible infiltrators, which in turn forces you to spend another 10 power to infiltrate them if you want to keep them "safer". There's another victory for LA/CS/KNob in my eyes.
Then there's the fact that every Rangers shot against Hormas, Termas, Heretics, Sluggas (and to a lesser extent Shootas) or Heroes is a half-wasted shot. Sure, you're picking off models, but up to half the damage per shot (160) is being wasted, due to low health per model. In case you're using them to counter LA, you're most likely to get quite a few shots at ¿him? with much lower damage (0.6 multiplier against heroes =96 instead of 160).
But your positioning of your rangers is based on the state of the fight as it is. Look at it this way. Throughout history most military approaches have incorporated the use of skirmishers. Before the battle, they will wear away at the enemy formation, but as the main battle line meets main battle line, skirmishers would withdraw to the main formation and reposition themselves accordingly, as their role as skirmishers has completed.
Before engagements, Rangers are ALWAYS on point and ahead of the general formation, doing attrition and skirmishing (using infiltration if there is any risk of getting attacked), and as the fight threatens (which again they should know first thanks to their superior sight and detection range), they can withdraw and rejoin the formation, where they are safe. So you should always be able to detect the enemy by being proactive on the front lines, and once you know where they are you can start kiting the Rangers back to your main formation.
Sure when you attack GM, and hormas, the bleed is insignificant. But I have experimented a lot with 1-1-1-1 as Warlock and I can tell you it's very viable against LA, Knob and even IG.
In the end, with Rangers you need to develop a game sense for when to use their abilities, which seriously maximises their utility. You say that the Rangers need a 10 power upgrade to secure their safety, I would argue that with the range nerf without upgrade that Elite brings it's totally required for them anyway. Look at it this way, you'll bleed less with them, and you augment their incredible abilities with increased range, increased safety and holofield.
Kinetic pulse in particular is a great investment for the future. Early on it can be comboed with a grenade or destructor to attempt a squad wipe (both combined is absolutely terrifying in T1), and if the Rangers are treated well and survive into the later game it can be comboed with Autarch call-in for maximal devastation.
IG in particular is an interesting matchup for 1-1-1-1, but I usually go for 2 guardians instead of a banshee. The idea being that the kinetic pulse is there to combine with grenades, and the build doesn't have the weakness of justifying an artillery spotter squad by going 2 shurikens. During the skirmish phase, just keep pinging the sentinel or the commander. In particular it's great against Lord General with his retinue, which bleed significantly, but also I find it very useful against sentinels. With enough attrition it significantly hampers the IG T1 domination by reducing sentinel aggression (he's scared to run a half health sentinel into a possible shuriken cannon), as well as immobilising Guardsmen and putting them on repair duty instead of capping the map (which, thanks to the nerf to repair rate, is not bad. 16 seconds worth of repair time per shot). I probably wouldn't get rangers against 3 guardsmen 1 sentinel though (which toil sometimes does.) In general, I'd get 1 shuriken, and see if a ranger would complement the sitaution.
---
I don't think giving detection to the Avengers Exarch is entirely unreasonable, after all it isn't such a common or powerful upgrade at T2. It wouldn't solve the LA wtfbleeding potential in T1 against eldar, but it could help in other "unfair" scenarios such as infiltrated Sluggas wiping unsuspecting squads in a matter of seconds, later into the game.
How is GU Warlock upgrade not popular or powerful? It makes Guardians arguably the best scaling basic infantry in the game. They don't bleed, they have embolden grenades (for extra damage), they have ranged resist aura, they have shield, they have fleet of foot. If it isn't popular, it should be and was for much of retail meta. In retail, 65/15 for 2 population and almost no upkeep. *shudders*
The fact remains that Rangers aren't viable against LA, every single flesh hook is a 50/5 free bleed, even assuming you keep the squad at 2/3, wich is common sense most of the time, you can't keep them at 2/3 the whole game right? It's not like hooks are a one time thing, especially with the reduced cooldown in elite, not to mention with the leap in t2 the LA can just outright kill them, leap, couple of hits, hook.
I completely disagree that Rangers aren't viable against LA. In the end, played correctly with Hormagaunts backing up a flesh hook, you could grab and smack down a tac model np. In fact, ASM are pretty easy pickings as well, unless you're willing to use a jump to save the model. Losing a ranger model is really no big deal; in the grand scheme of things 50/5 is not so much for a long cd ability.
Against LA I'm generally happy to run around with 2/3, and finish a fight with 1/3 if the flesh hook is on cooldown etc. If you don't like playing risky, then reinforce consistently when the Rangers are not on duty. As I said, good Ranger use isn't just about keeping them active, it's about knowing when to shoot and when to give up space, when to scout and probe, when it's fighting time, and when it's downtime. I like to get the Rangers to use most of their energy before they retreat, and count that as downtime.
During this period you have to probably play more compact so that the LA can't pick off isolated units, and make sure to bodyguard your key units with Banshees. But I would hardly say Rangers have to run away the whole time. In general this is why I like to go with the 1-1-1-1 because the shuriken covers the Ranger and secures them while the Ranger is defending in depth and kiting towards the shuriken between shots.
Destructor versus chaos is bollocks, the fact that the warlock can cancel it mid cast nullifies any attempts to bait it with your tics, it makes tics not a viable deterrent against banshees, most warlock players will wait for your tics to engage banshees during a battle to destructor them during the fight, resulting in an inevitable squad wipe, not even AC tics are saved, you just can't use them unless you keep them behind in worship, and (especially in the first engagements) it's not something you can afford, as if merciless witchblade or immolator are not enough to think about when using your tics.
Inevitable wipe? If in your calculation, a destructor+ banshees> AC tics, I think your mistake is to completely commit to that fight. Yes, destructor is amazing against vanilla tics, but it doesn't suddenly make banshees instawipe everything. In the end, you still have doomblast. And in the end, if you know that a destructor is coming, you can:
a) try to manipulate the melee fight to happen in an area with cover surrounding it, making destructor far less potent, or
b) use heretics like light cavalry in Total war, i.e. charge, doomblast, kite away with the speed boost from melee charge. Rinse and repeat.
This is the most common way to make unupgraded melee heretics dominate unupgraded T1 melee squads that would nevertheless win if heretics didn't accomplish double doomblast. E.g. Banshees, sluggas with Waagh.
The reasoning is in general, the doomblast is their most significant source of anti-squad damage, and their melee, while good, often has to go up against melee resist auras. As a result you not only concede a lot less bleed, but you are able to control the banshees and range them down and use doomblast, which they have no resistance aura against.
As an added bonus, by using this technique it's harder for him to hit his destructor, and he has to micro trying to find a good opening to charge banshees in.
)