Do we need old havocs?

[Sub_Zero]

Their melee resistance is way more OP than their insta suppression trait. Should we return them to their previous state? When my squads get suppressed immediately I can bear that, nobody should be walking inside the firing arc of havocs. When I can't counter havocs with their supposed counter that becomes a big deal. For orks it is impossible now. Shoota boyz won't do enough damage to their heavy armor, stormboyz won't even get to attack them, immediate counter-initiation from heretics will spell their doom. In later tiers more crazy stuff can be fielded. I am absolutely OK with devastators being tough in melee, SM don't have any good melee unit that can quickly deplete the health of a jump unit.

[Ven]

agreed.

the melee resist is a tad silly. i mean their health is quite low so a lot of the times it doesnt make a difference, but in the case of ASM/raptors its especially noticeable

[DandyFrontline]

Nope, the havoks are okay

[Ven]

Nope, the havoks are okay

really? do you know how hard havocs are to force off with jump squads now?

[Cheah18]

havoc melee resist needs removing. But their instant suppress trait was also OP. They still suppress faster than other suppression teams atm. I'm sure Caeltos is aware of this already.

[Nurland]

The only reason i think havocs would need melee resistance is due to them dying so easily in retreat to even t1 squads from full hp. Other than that the melee resistance is a bit too much.

[Protagonist]

Is there a way to scale back the resistance to something like 20% or 15%?

[Caeltos]

Yes, of course.

[Ven]

i think that might be a bit more reasonable. i mean, i'd be fine with the melee resist just going completely but just a scale back would be nice i think.

[Cheah18]

People say they are too hard to force off with asm/raptors. This is hardly the end of it; do you realise how hard they are to force off with IG or Eldar!? Its always a struggle to slip that melee hero/those shees round the fire when the havocs are supported properly by other units, and when you finally connect they just run behind some tics or csm or whatever, tanking melee hits and redeploying. The worst thing is they can just tank melee hits and run into a building without too much trouble. Sure, shees will rip the havocs apart, but this can take a while and your shees are already getting gibbed on their approach. You end up with retreating shees and the havocs a few feet back and still at 60% health at best.

[Dalakh]

Who the hell counters setup teams with banshees ???

[Torpid]

Eldar can just counter them with nades, shurikens behind shields, wse, mind or rangers, granted rangers aren't great anymore vs chaos...

Giving havocs melee resistance was the biggest balance mistake of 2014. Ridiculous. Could they get it on retreat but not otherwise? They really are blatantly overperforming vs orks now VS everything in fact, but orks especially do awful vs them.

[Sub_Zero]

The only reason i think havocs would need melee resistance is due to them dying so easily in retreat to even t1 squads from full hp.

It occurs only when players make mistakes. Either by not supporting them (how is anything able to chase them in retreat if heretics stop everything dead in their tracks?) or not being able to press the retreat button in time (the only right choice when they are caught unguarded in a bad spot).

But their instant suppress trait was also OP.

I agree, I myself mentioned that a long time before, but when the change was applied it saddened me. I really miss old good havocs. And I am not sure that they suppress at the rate they are supposed to. And here I am talking about specific cases when a unit is suppressed being in the middle of the firing arc. I don't pretend to be right here but I have a feeling that other suppression teams are capable of suppressing immediately anything that happens to be in the middle (+/-) of their firing arc. The only thing havocs overperformed at was their suppression at super-long ranges, it is the only thing that should be touched, I am not sure why other modifiers warranted any changes.

[Cheah18]

Who the hell counters setup teams with banshees ???

Wasn't talking countering per se, just going in for the opportunistic kill after exploiting a lapse in the havoc player's defence. I would say 'forcing off' and countering aren't the same thing exactly. Hard countering itself isn't the problem [with eldar] its making use of situations where your IG hero/shees can get to the havocs. I think shees on havocs is a desirable situation. Before melee resist a few hits would guarantee retreat or a havoc model loss (as it should) but now it doesn't guarantee either. In fact, it is morelikely you will be losing shee models when havocs take a stroll back.

Eldar have it easy compared to IG where I'm like finally my commissar is in on his havocs—oh no wait there they are tanking him and here comes chaos support.

Giving havocs melee resistance was the biggest balance mistake of 2014. Ridiculous.

My jury, so to speak, is still out on whether it out-ridiculises SHI rhino or slaughter... And what you said about orks actually rings true; my experience with orks is too little to justify a comment before, but I will say that I had a more-than-difficult day forcing them off with stormboyz.

[Dark Riku]

Eldar can just counter them with nades, shurikens behind shields, wse, mind or rangers, granted rangers aren't great anymore vs chaos...

Why exactly wouldn't rangers still be great versus Chaos...? Rangers do 30% more damage versus (S)HI and do 100% versus commanders now. RoF went up as well.This means that the damage rangers did versus (S)HI is about the same as before the change. ~0.5 less DPS ATM, while the DPS versus commanders went up by 3,2 DPS. Versus infantry it went down by 5 DPS but that doesn't matter if their models still die with that less damage, faster I will add due to the higher RoF. I know it won't kill most full HP infantry models but seriously, they will mostly not be full HP in a game and they'll die if another unit looks at them funny if they were.

[Somehow heavily armouring yourself makes you weaker versus sniper shots Those helmets must make great targets ...]

Off topic, sorry ¯\ /¯

[Daddy]

No leave havocs alone. It was bad enough to lose the insta suppression.

Honestly in all the games iv'e played, my Havocs were very easily countered.

Their melee resistance just gives them the same staying power as regular CSM.

Havocs can very much be countered. It just means they don't wipe as fast.

[Ven]

No leave havocs alone. It was bad enough to lose the insta suppression.

Honestly in all the games iv'e played, my Havocs were very easily countered.

Their melee resistance just gives them the same staying power as regular CSM.

Havocs can very much be countered. It just means they don't wipe as fast.

provided you have tics to counter-initiate from jump squads, havocs may not even loose a model.

[Torpid]

Eldar can just counter them with nades, shurikens behind shields, wse, mind or rangers, granted rangers aren't great anymore vs chaos...

Why exactly wouldn't rangers still be great versus Chaos...? Rangers do 30% more damage versus (S)HI and do 100% versus commanders now. RoF went up as well.This means that the damage rangers did versus (S)HI is about the same as before the change. ~0.5 less DPS ATM, while the DPS versus commanders went up by 3,2 DPS. Versus infantry it went down by 5 DPS but that doesn't matter if their models still die with that less damage, faster I will add due to the higher RoF. I know it won't kill most full HP infantry models but seriously, they will mostly not be full HP in a game and they'll die if another unit looks at them funny if they were.

[Somehow heavily armouring yourself makes you weaker versus sniper shots Those helmets must make great targets ...]



Off topic, sorry ¯\ /¯

Because dps is a silly way of measuring the value of snipers since they usually fire one shot then are forced back and away. It takes too long to force the havocs off if you're running forward shooting them once then fleeing due to the csm moving forward over and over and over. Rangers also fail vs heretics, not even killing them in one once they get their AC or lv2, they have terrible scaling vs chaos where in T2 shurikens AND brightlances are exceptionally useful. They're just no point going for them really unless you're vs a CS, in which case shurikens are far less useful anyway.

[Dark Riku]

Because dps is a silly way of measuring the value of snipers since they usually fire one shot then are forced back and away. It takes too long to force the havocs off if you're running forward shooting them once then fleeing due to the csm moving forward over and over and over. Rangers also fail vs heretics, not even killing them in one once they get their AC or lv2, they have terrible scaling vs chaos where in T2 shurikens AND brightlances are exceptionally useless. They're just no point going for them really unless you're vs a CS, in which case shurikens are far less useful anyway.

It's not a silly way... Those csm can't just run forward, you have your shees, hero, shury, or whatever there. They can also be infiltrated, good luck with that ^^ Don't forget their shotgunblast across the map and that they got cheaper as well. I guess you want to say that shurycans and brightlances are useful instead of useless? That still doesn't take away all the tools that the rangers bring to the table.
Ranger are great for setting things up and forcing your opponent to do things he probably doesn't want to do.

Still off topic, sorry ¯\ /¯


~ On topic: The melee resistance needs to go, or at the bare minimum get reworked.
It's quite ridiculous how pitiful damage normal melee does to them now.
Melee resistance only on retreat sounds like a good option to try out first.

[Cheah18]

Shame my idea about having a pre-shot delay for snipers (ie. a pause after acquiring a target, effectively a wind-up) was ignored. It would make them far more defensive a unit than when they used to run forward, shoot a model, run back. Also, makes them less cheap because they don't just take a model when an enemy unit comes within range.

Talk about off-topic.

[Torpid]

Because dps is a silly way of measuring the value of snipers since they usually fire one shot then are forced back and away. It takes too long to force the havocs off if you're running forward shooting them once then fleeing due to the csm moving forward over and over and over. Rangers also fail vs heretics, not even killing them in one once they get their AC or lv2, they have terrible scaling vs chaos where in T2 shurikens AND brightlances are exceptionally useless. They're just no point going for them really unless you're vs a CS, in which case shurikens are far less useful anyway.

It's not a silly way... Those csm can't just run forward, you have your shees, hero, shury, or whatever there. They can also be infiltrated, good luck with that ^^ Don't forget their shotgunblast across the map and that they got cheaper as well. I guess you want to say that shurycans and brightlances are useful instead of useless? That still doesn't take away all the tools that the rangers bring to the table.
Ranger are great for setting things up and forcing your opponent to do things he probably doesn't want to do.

Look, just try it yourself in a 1v1. Eldar vs chaos. The value you get from an additional shuriken is way higher than the value you get from a ranger squad even on the maps where previously they performed amazingly such as calderis and GTG. They're still good and I don't suggest buffing them, I'm just saying that in the chaos vs eldar MU specifically rangers are now an inferior choice. You're handicapping yourself by getting them vs anything other than a CS and even then you can only get one now to be playing optimally whereas 2 was very optimal before on maps like calderis.

[crazyman64335]

stop going off topic

¯\ /¯

[Sub_Zero]

Honestly in all the games iv'e played, my Havocs were very easily countered.

Then you don't break hell lose. I swear you I managed to keep havocs on the field BEFORE THE CHANGE. Now it is just super-easy. All Chaos heroes are very well designed to protect their hard-hitting ranged units, sorcerer and plague champion are good at it since T1 (I remember when I forced off a squad of assault marines in like 3-4 seconds when I perfectly landed doom bolts on them and swarmed them with 2x csm and heretics, this was just hilarious, they couldn't even attack due to being suppressed by the heretcis right away), chaos lord becomes scary in T2 (though you can wait out these 3 seconds of resistance to knockback and sweep them off their feet).

[enasni127]

The only reason i think havocs would need melee resistance is due to them dying so easily in retreat to even t1 squads from full hp. Other than that the melee resistance is a bit too much.

I think they should just increase the hit points of havocs and devastators a little bit (not much). I don't see how havocs are outstanding vulnerable on retreat compared to other setup teams. They have 225hp per model and heavy infantry armor so they are pretty hard to kill on retreat on t1 with piercing damage and standard melee units (jump troops). The only true risk is banshees and they also kill shurikens and hwts on retreat without any trouble. Cause of their armor und hp per model havocs have it by far easier against grenades, flamers and other aoe attacks than the standard infantry setup teams.


just to be honest, chaos annoys me a bit atm. I feel they get better, stronger and more versatile every single patch while other races seem to be completely forgotten by the devs of this mod. usually chaos units, even their landraider, have good options in range and close combat and sometimes even are soft counters to setup teams and so on, while other races need to micro a lot and think by far more which units they need to buy and how they use them (eldar(except WL), sm, ig for example). I think max power made some of these points clear in his last stream )

and if people start discussions about buffs vs chaos or nerfs for chaos, it usually ends in TONS of chaos players calling out "XY IS FINE." without any arguments or reasons and in the end nothing changes. right now it's almost impossible for the lesser played factions to achieve anything at all cause so many people play chaos and many of them just defend their favourite race.
I think chaos is well done in this mod but it's time to do something for the others, too.

[Ven]

The only reason i think havocs would need melee resistance is due to them dying so easily in retreat to even t1 squads from full hp. Other than that the melee resistance is a bit too much.

I think they should just increase the hit points of havocs and devastators a little bit (not much). I don't see how havocs are outstanding vulnerable on retreat compared to other setup teams. They have 225hp per model and heavy infantry armor so they are pretty hard to kill on retreat on t1 with piercing damage and standard melee units (jump troops). The only true risk is banshees and they also kill shurikens and hwts on retreat without any trouble. Cause of their armor und hp per model havocs have it by far easier against grenades, flamers and other aoe attacks than the standard infantry setup teams.

just to be honest, chaos annoys me a bit atm. I feel they get better, stronger and more versatile every single patch while other races seem to be completely forgotten by the devs of this mod. usually chaos units, even their landraider, have good options in range and close combat and sometimes even are soft counters to setup teams and so on, while other races need to micro a lot and think by far more which units they need to buy and how they use them

well ANY infantry should be vulnerable to melee in retreat, all retreating units take 75% more melee damage in retreat. and HI armor is more of a curse than a blessing as riku brought up in a thread a while back. barely any damage types do extra damage to infantry armor, but most damage types DO do bonus damage to HI and SHI, which means havocs and devs are vulnerable to things like shees and stormboyz in retreat path. i think that was the idea hehind the melee resist change on the havocs/devs but it just ended up overperforming.

I think max power made some of these points clear in his last stream )

LOL

at the time he was in one of his rage modes, he calls everything OP like that in similar situations.
Max only plays SM and thus he cant and knows he can't, contribute to balance discussion as others can. you can't say that max saying "omg csm op they better shit guos from their base" means that chaos is OP.

[Dark Riku]

Look, just try it yourself in a 1v1. Eldar vs chaos.

Look, stop assuming faulty info. You honestly think I talk about these things without having first hand experience with it?

stop going off topic ¯\ /¯

no

Cause of their armor und hp per model havocs have it by far easier against grenades, flamers and other aoe attacks than the standard infantry setup teams.

NO, the opposite is actually true. Topic Ven was talking about

[Torpid]

Look, just try it yourself in a 1v1. Eldar vs chaos.

Look, stop assuming faulty info. You honestly think I talk about these things without having first hand experience with it?

Considering you're meant to be a high level player and a rational player, yet all my experiences strongly suggest that you're wrong about this, yes, yes I do think you say these things without having first hand experience. It's either that or you're wrong or I'm wrong. I highly doubt I'm wrong in this case because eldar vs chaos is one of the MUs I play most often as the eldar so I have tried to use the new rangers plenty of times and they are just not worth it over an extra shuriken, or a faster WL.

[PhatE]

I like the idea that they got melee resist. As much fun as it was to kill havocs with a T1 squad I can see why giving them a bit more being an ok change. However, flanks in general give you far less reward for a pretty decent setup against chaos which is hard enough as it is.

I won't say remove it but I'm for reducing the % they get from melee resistance.

On the off topic stuff, I find that given the new change that the only time I'd get rangers is if I were the warlock or if I have to fight detection which as the Farseer isn't all that hard. Otherwise there is very little reason to choose rangers over a shuriken as your second or third purchase.

To be fair though they are pretty good at bleeding tics now.

[enasni127]

Cause of their armor und hp per model havocs have it by far easier against grenades, flamers and other aoe attacks than the standard infantry setup teams.

NO, the opposite is actually true. Topic Ven was talking about

@ Dark Riku/Ven:

Sorry, I didn't know that. But now, even more than before, I would suggest to take away their melee resistance and increase their hit points by maybe 10-15%. Their tactical field of use would remain the same, counters will still work but they wouldn't die so easy. I think that would be better than making them resistant only to melee attacks.

[Torpid]

Cause of their armor und hp per model havocs have it by far easier against grenades, flamers and other aoe attacks than the standard infantry setup teams.

NO, the opposite is actually true. Topic Ven was talking about

@ Dark Riku/Ven:

Sorry, I didn't know that. But now, even more than before, I would suggest to take away their melee resistance and increase their hit points by maybe 10-15%. Their tactical field of use would remain the same, counters will still work but they wouldn't die so easy. I think that would be better than making them resistant only to melee attacks.

That would still make them difficult to deal with with melee but even harder to deal with with snipers/ranged fire/grenades/all their other counters. So no, that's an absolutely awful idea. Why do they deserve extra hp over the other set-up teams? No reason whatsoever.