Dawn of War Codex

Please correct me if I am wrong but I have kinda strong feeling that SM is lacking...options? In comparison to other races. It still wonders me why army such as SM lacks good melee unit till T3 and Vanguard Veterans/Assault Termies. I know that Vanguard Veterans can make SM huge power house at the late game but early/mid game is horror for SM (in my opinnion). I would say that changes and new units given to SM are not much great like for Chaos (they get Raportos - even if heretics with nades are great setup teams counter, Chaos Termies - every commander gets the same, flexible unit and Land Rider - 2nd supper unit even if Chaos already has GUO. Those changes to Chaos makes SM look like poor begger - dont get me wrong, Stenguard Veterans are just great but what to expect for such price. Even tho, they are nothing like spamable Flash Gits for Ork.

I just thinking, wish to start some talking about actuall state of SM. I might be totaly wrong tho. Please also consider 2v2 and 3v3, not only 1v1 games becasue to be honest, backbone of the Elite are teamgames.

I used to check some SM stuff in Lexicanum. They have pretty powerfull stuff. Powerfull that can destroy the balance in game. SM is powerfull enough and shouldn't be too powerful as other races. SM depends on technique and strategy, while nids depends on swarming or orks depends on smashing everything. SM becomes stronger if you know how to play.

Lol. SM in ELite is the most flexible faction in the game. They got strong counter to any thread on any stage of the game

Remember when SM was the 'ranged race'? Ah, the good old days.

I think you are forgetting your teleporting thunder hammer Force Commander. A lot of melee counterplay in SM is based in their heroes and Scouts.

Yes, all you write here is true but still...sometimes I feel like I am lack of options to counter build orders. For example - 2 guardians, hero (WL or FS), banshee, shuriken platform and Falcon. It's kinda hard to counter, even with FC.
Also I think that you forget that SM got 2 others heroes, not only FC, who deal with melee stuff even worse.
To counter eldar I shoud have scouts with shotgun, devastartors with lasscannon (?), ASM , Tacs with sth and FC with hammer/fist and halo. Still, ASM will be reaped apart by banshees, WL will tie TSM in cc and Guardians will rape scouts in a seconds. Also take into account that Falcon reinforce shees faster than I am able to kill them. I know that it all depends on players skill but still I feel like SM is lacking sth to breake such impas.

Yes, all you write here is true but still...sometimes I feel like I am lack of options to counter build orders. For example - 2 guardians, hero (WL or FS), banshee, shuriken platform and Falcon. It's kinda hard to counter, even with FC.
Also I think that you forget that SM got 2 others heroes, not only FC, who deal with melee stuff even worse.
To counter eldar I shoud have scouts with shotgun, devastartors with lasscannon (?), ASM , Tacs with sth and FC with hammer/fist and halo. Still, ASM will be reaped apart by banshees, WL will tie TSM in cc and Guardians will rape scouts in a seconds. Also take into account that Falcon reinforce shees faster than I am able to kill them. I know that it all depends on players skill but still I feel like SM is lacking sth to breake such impas.

What are you talking about? Build 2 devastators against IG or devastator + ASM. Against shees + shuriken build ASM + scout + serg + shotguns (or even 2). Against falcon give rocker launcher to tacs for example.

Rocket Launcher on tacs is precisely what you shouldn't get vs a falcon; it's a transport, missle tacs are useless vs it since they will never hit it.

Get a melta dread instead alongside a thunderhammer/teleporting FC. Melta dread can pressure the falcon alongside a melta bomb (and a fire prism later on for that matter) while the FC/asm handle the brightlance or shuriken (s). Sterns/shotgun scouts deal with the warlock then afterwards the dire avengers. You can get a lascannon on top of that if you want, it scales well, then you get a libby out and more devastators and you're golden since now both the avatar and fire prisms are useless vs your T2 due to VOT las-devs, melta bomb and melta dread. Let scouts die and get another dread. You win unless the eldar can get out prisms+avatar and get a fairly lucky wipe on your asm.

Balance aside. It is always nice to see new additions to the game.

What units from Lore you propose? Can we add a Primarch in T3? lol

Centurions for example. Assault ones as T2 melee unit.

Don't know why is that so funny - Chaos already has 2 super units and nobody laugh about it.

Sturnn wrote:Centurions for example. Assault ones as T2 melee unit.

Don't know why is that so funny - Chaos already has 2 super units and nobody laugh about it.

In my opinion it just shows how arbitrary the notion of "super unit" is, among other things.

Techmarine? Powerful Sweep will really clear out melee units with the splash knockback. Combine with melee damage bonus and axe to get a melee powerhouse. Then you have mines that deal good damage and suppress enemies. It's not a melee counter per se, but more a defensive tool. Then you have Mark Target. Oh man, cast Mark Target, focus fire and watch whichever poor unit you cast it on vaporize. Beside abilities that your various armors give you, you also get high powered shot, which is basically instant suppression. Combine with grenades to erase melee units or force retreat on aware opponents.

Apothecary gets full auto. Basically shoot 'em good, with all the knockback and DPS goodness that comes with it. You then have purification rites, that cause knockback to enemy units around your basic heal's target. Especially useful on melee units; they will need the heal anyway and knockback obviously helps in melee combat. You might want armor of purity with that to troll enemy melee units between using heals with knockback and merciless strike. Also worth considering is the Sanguine Chainsword, which gives you a passive life leaching ability that is improved in melee combat.

To answer the question no, I don't think SM needs more units. There's no real hole in their army that needs addressing. Just because something isn't as readily available in one faction as opposed to another doesn't mean that it's lacking. It just means that there is a difference of doctrine between SM and say IG.

I think Riku was the one who said it (going off memory) but there's no real reason to make every faction totally universal since it destroys the identity of each one.

While I agree entirely with Atlas, it still bugs me that CSM can build a Land Raider Phobos - THE vanilla Land Raider - and SM can't.

It's like punching fluff in the face. It just feels weird however you look at it.

Not... necessarily.

Space Marines are able to use the Land Raider Redeemer precisely because they are loyalists and therefore benefit from innovations such as the invention of the Redeemer by whichever pyromaniac Space Marine chapter it was. Similarly, Grey Knights get to use a Crusader because the Black Templars invented it. Chaos Space Marines, being traitors, obviously cannot benefit from these developments, and so have no choice besides the Phobos, which is generally a worse infantry support vehicle.

Jes wrote:... It's like punching fluff in the face. It just feels weird however you look at it.

This mod does NOT have anything to do with the fluff at all. It just uses WH40k names and models.
If you want to play a next-to-fluff game, u have to switch to the "Codex Edition" mod (or perhaps Vengeance of the Blood Ravens mod, though not sure of its playability.)

Sneery_Thug wrote:

Jes wrote:... It's like punching fluff in the face. It just feels weird however you look at it.

This mod does NOT have anything to do with the fluff at all. It just uses WH40k names and models.
If you want to play a next-to-fluff game, u have to switch to the "Codex Edition" mod (or perhaps Vengeance of the Blood Ravens mod, though not sure of its playability.)

I wouldn't go that far. Many fluff changes were made. Generally the Elite mod will improve fluff or make DOW as close to the fluff as possible so long as that doesn't impede on gameplay balance or design.