Weapon Accuracy

[ol'smithy]

While playing a game earlier today, I noticed my plasma tac model miss a Chaos marine squad (in open cover) 3 times in a row. So I go over to the codex and I notice that plasma pvp damage has a 0.8 accuracy modifier vs small and medium entity sizes.

On a tzeench squad, you get 4 weapons which fire in long bursts, giving you a nice average dps. A tac plasma gun however is very hit and miss by comparison, and can let you down in crucial situations such as where you need to pop some warrior models on a nid enemy.

I get that Relic rts games have an element of randomness to them but I go to Hearthstone for my daily fix of RNG. Any thoughts?

[Torpid]

I like the burst damage on it. Mainly because it means that occasionally plasma tacs do beat TCSM because they get a few lucky bursts early on and wipe a model which decreases the TCSM's dps such that the plasma tacs do end up winning.

It is RNG, that's for sure, but it does have the purpose of making its damage less predictable and thereby better at bleeding models as your opponent will retreat later than if it was consistent no doubt.

I do dislike RNG though. I wouldn't mind if it was left like this or changed to be more consistent.

[Cheekie Monkie]

Well RNG will always be present due to the fact that the plasma gun is likely to hit different models in a squad, though I do die a bit inside when a potentially crucial plasma shot misses.

[Sub_Zero]

I think that tactical marines should not miss their targets at all. They are more skilled (read more expensive) than say guardsmen. I would be totally fine with 100 accuracy while they are stationary.

[enasni127]

I think that tactical marines should not miss their targets at all. They are more skilled (read more expensive) than say guardsmen. I would be totally fine with 100 accuracy while they are stationary.

i agree with that. maybe their accuracy could be increased? this could make them a bit more "special" and create a feeling of them being superior in training and disciplin to csm-tacs. If it should be necessary their dps could be decrease a little bit to even things out.

[Sturnn]

I think that would also increase their usage in early game - one squad but deal the same ammount of dmg as 2 chaper ones - becasue if their will be able to hit their targets they will deal more dmg in simple understanding.

[Ven]

i feel like people are missing something here.

a tac squads job come T2 is basically a multitool, they are NOT supposed to be carrying you vs Tzzetch marines, thats how tacs have been designed.

but trust me when i say that giving a unit like tacs 100% accuracy would make the game inbalanced. literally ALL infantry in the game save snipers have some kind of scatter or RNG to their shots. also keep in mind that the DPS calculations on the codex take in to account the accuracy, so you can expect tacs with 100% accuracy would start doing anywhere from 25-70DPS considering each Individual round from a bolter is 25 damage per hit, and they fire in bursts, thats coming from 3 marines, thats basically one burst from whole squad= dead default IG squad before you can say "oh shit"

[ol'smithy]

Think we're getting a bit off track here. The bolters are perfectly fine, my issue is with a slow firing, plasma gun, single entity model missing 1/5 of his shots

[Sturnn]

Not sure if plasma is even worth to get on TSM. Is it not better to upgrade them to Stenguard instead? And if we talk about 2nd tacs squad, again, going for plasma makes you vulnerable vs another kinds of stuff.

[lolzarz]

Not sure if plasma is even worth to get on TSM. Is it not better to upgrade them to Stenguard instead? And if we talk about 2nd tacs squad, again, going for plasma makes you vulnerable vs another kinds of stuff.

Plasma guns are a relatively risk-free investment compared to the other 2, mainly because of how similar the plasma gun acts compared to your standard bolter. Upgrading to missile launcher basically your anti-infantry output by 1/4 (1/3 if you don't have the sergeant for some reason) because the missile very rarely hits infantry models. Flamer has short range and so the tactical space marines either remain at bolter range and lose 1/4 of anti-infantry firepower, or enter flamer range and risk being raped by melee units.

The plasma gun, in contrast, has the same range and the same accuracy as the standard bolter, which means it can be used in all conditions the bolter can, except better, due to higher base DPS and the natural advantage of plasma damage on heavy infantry. You obviously run the risk of not having the missile launcher to help you destroy tanks, but if you have other anti-vehicle weapons like the (infamous) teleporting power fist Force Commander, lascannon predator/devastator or even a dreadnought of some kind, the plasma gun is a cheap and effective way of getting more damage, which is not always the case with sternguard.

[Ven]

Not sure if plasma is even worth to get on TSM. Is it not better to upgrade them to Stenguard instead?

plasma will do more overall dps than sternguard using kraken rounds, not to mention that if you get sternguard their level resets, tacs upgrading to plasma does not get their lvl reset

going for plasma makes you vulnerable vs another kinds of stuff.

how so? unlike most units in the game, when you get a upgrade for your tacs, you can replace it with another upgrade as many times as you want, you have to pay every time ofcource. this is why sternguard exist, kraken might not do a good a job as a plasma gun, and vengence round wont do a good a job as a missile launcher, but you dont have to pay every time you want to change their function.

[Wise Windu]

also keep in mind that the DPS calculations on the codex take in to account the accuracy

Mmm, accuracy isn't factored into the codex values. Accuracy is a separate thing that is affected by the weapon family and damage type with respect to the size of the target and the cover it's in, respectively

http://www.dawnofwar.info/index.php?pag ... y#accuracy

[Sub_Zero]

Think we're getting a bit off track here. The bolters are perfectly fine, my issue is with a slow firing, plasma gun, single entity model missing 1/5 of his shots

Exactly my point. The model with a plasma gun should be hitting targets 100% reliably.

they are NOT supposed to be carrying you vs Tzzetch marines

How COME a specialized unit (effective only against HI/SHI with that upgrade) loses to an overpowered generalist (stupid damage in stupid bursts to any target) unit? Snipers suck now, there is no overpowered autocannon (havocs, terminators) in SM's roster. It is time for tacs to fuck tzeentch marines in 1 v 1 combat (they actually do sometimes but with 100% accurate plasma gun it will occur way more often).

[Sturnn]

plasma will do more overall dps than sternguard using kraken rounds, not to mention that if you get sternguard their level resets, tacs upgrading to plasma does not get their lvl reset

Stenguards are yours multitool of which you were talking about few posts ago Actually I get them in every game I play. And even one squad of tacs with plasma will not deal with for example 1 squad of TCSM. If enemy spams TCSM respond should be different than plasma TSM. So at this point I don't see any usage of plasma TSM.

how so? unlike most units in the game, when you get a upgrade for your tacs, you can replace it with another upgrade as many times as you want, you have to pay every time ofcource. this is why sternguard exist, kraken might not do a good a job as a plasma gun, and vengence round wont do a good a job as a missile launcher, but you dont have to pay every time you want to change their function.

Second TSM squad - well ,here you can do what you want with them but as you said you pay the same amount of money for every switch between weapons - so if you will be switching continiously from plasma to launcher and again it will not gonna be cost effective. So if for example enemy will field first Looted Tank you will go for missle launcher. If another units will be Nobs you will not switch to plasma becasue you still have to deal with tank. Imho, in this meta game, plasma on tacs is not worth of buying it. As you said, if TSM are multitool their are not going to be beat any unit with direct purpose - like TCSM. Why get plasma if you still can't win?

[Sub_Zero]

Tacs' upgrades should be changed like the Lord General's upgrades (third slot) were changed = half of the price for any already purchased item.

As you said, if TSM are multitool their are not going to be beat any unit with direct purpose - like TCSM.

I still don't get how the fuck people see them this way. If they have a rocket launcher they are your dedicated mobile av-unit. If they have a plasma gun they are your dedicated anti-HI/SHI unit. That basically means that they should be not worse at these roles than their counter-parts.

But if they could equip a rocket launcher and a plasma gun at the same time then they would considered a multi-tool and they would have to be less effective than their counter-parts who have only one specialization.

Sternguard veterans are that multi-tool you are talking about. Tacs with a plasma gun SHOULD NOT be worse than TCSM only because of the fact they can equip a rocket launcher and serve a different purpose.

I see no single reason for TCSM to be that superior to tacs with a plasma gun. Before it was kinda OK. Since you could use your very dangerous snipers and snipers countered the entire T1 roster of Chaos. Now this potential is gone and Chaos got themselves a jump unit. Why tacs (their plasma gun) should remain in a relatively unreliable state is beyond me.

As I proposed some time ago - make kraken rounds affect super heavy-infantry, space marines don't really have tools to deal with that and make the plasma gun a sniper weapon (perfect accuracy). Doesn't seem too unbalanced, does it? But that certainly helps the weak department of ranged space marines' units to be slightly more effective.

[lolzarz]

Second TSM squad - well ,here you can do what you want with them but as you said you pay the same amount of money for every switch between weapons - so if you will be switching continiously from plasma to launcher and again it will not gonna be cost effective. So if for example enemy will field first Looted Tank you will go for missle launcher. If another units will be Nobs you will not switch to plasma becasue you still have to deal with tank. Imho, in this meta game, plasma on tacs is not worth of buying it. As you said, if TSM are multitool their are not going to be beat any unit with direct purpose - like TCSM. Why get plasma if you still can't win?

Because the plasma gun should not be the sole source of anti-infantry damage, just like how the missile launcher should not be the sole source of anti-vehicle damage. It's used to pile on the damage with other, stronger sources, such as predators, vanguard, etc. It's like how the missile launcher is used to support stronger sources of anti-vehicle damage such as lascannon devastator/predators.

[Ven]

As you said, if TSM are multitool their are not going to be beat any unit with direct purpose - like TCSM. Why get plasma if you still can't win?

plasma gun tacs with reliably bleed nobz, other tacs, ogyrns etc. Tzzetch marines are one of the few things in T2 that can outshoot them, as they should.

the ability to switch weapons is a MASSIVE boon, in T1 you might get flamers to bash power but flamers are hardly ideal in T2, so you can switch to something else.

while the plasma gun is not as good as tzeetch marines, that no comparison, tzzetch marines are Much more expensive and are designed to deal with HI/SHI, tacs are like i said a multitool witch can adapt, they aren't meant for just one job.

they are NOT supposed to be carrying you vs Tzzetch marines

How COME a specialized unit (effective only against HI/SHI with that upgrade) loses to an overpowered generalist (stupid damage in stupid bursts to any target) unit? Snipers suck now, there is no overpowered autocannon (havocs, terminators) in SM's roster. It is time for tacs to fuck tzeentch marines in 1 v 1 combat (they actually do sometimes but with 100% accurate plasma gun it will occur way more often).

what? tzzetch marines are one of the best anti SHI/HI units in the game, inferno damage type does extra to HI/SHI. they are designed to do that, they're not a "generalist" unit. tacs are a generalist unit that can adapt, not an specialized unit. this is why they can change weapons.

I still don't get how the fuck people see them this way. If they have a rocket launcher they are your dedicated mobile av-unit.If they have a plasma gun they are your dedicated anti-HI/SHI unit. That basically means that they should be not worse at these roles than their counter-parts.

how many times do i have to say this? tacs ARE NOT a dedicated unit and neither should they be your only anti-HI/AV source. missle launcher is LIGHT AV, plasma gun is LIGHT AHI. meanwhile tzzetch marines are a dedicated unit that is expensive and only fulfills one roll, killing HI/SHI.

As I proposed some time ago - make kraken rounds affect super heavy-infantry

why? vengeance rounds already do extra damage to SHI.

[Ven]

anyway back on topic.

while 100% on bolters etc is completely out of the question, i could perhaps see it on plasma guns. perhaps when using kraken rounds?

[ShowMeMagik]

anyway back on topic.

while 100% on bolters etc is completely out of the question, i could perhaps see it on plasma guns. perhaps when using kraken rounds?

While I claim to not be an expert on how the stats work, I am a mathematician. It is my understanding the dps on the codex needs to be adjusted for accuracy. If this is the case raising the accuracy on bolters to 100% raises dps by about 2.916 per model and on the plasma about 5.352. (The losses adjustment for the accuracy)

This will then be effected by the percentage modifier for armour type and levels (the joys of percentages )

Options could be leave it alone., raise it with kraken bolts, or give that model an accuracy increase when the upgrade is purchased

[Nurland]

Allright. Calm down a bit.

[PhatE]

Let them play!

[Lichtbringer]

I would be fine with 100% accuracy if the Damage gets lowered by 1/5. (I hope my math is right, same DPS in the End).