Dawn of War Codex

Team games get interesting when allies support each other and new combinations of abilities show up on the battleground. Webway gate travel, for example, is usable by allies of other races.
Proposal: if 2 Eldar allies build webway gates, then allow their webway networks to combine. Similarly, we combine two Ravener players' tunnel networks.

Many players avoid building additional hormagants and don't consider them decent

Sub_Zero wrote: It is such a cheap T1 unit just like hormagaunt. Yet hormagaunts are something nobody would ever call decent whereas when it comes to judging slugga boyz' performance everybody speaks about this annoying term "DEDICATED!!#!$#!" melee unit

and avoid them in favor of the "standard" 1 hormagant, 2-3 termagant starting build. Without at least 2 hormagant squads in T1, what is the purpose of the warrior melee upgrades in T1 (melee synapse), T2 (adrenal upgrade).

1 hormagant squad will lose to a slugga squad in a closed environment, even though hormagants are completely "dedicated melee".

I posted a replay at http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=301597 to help support the following proposals:

Increase cost of 1 hormagant squad to equal cost of 1 slugga squad. Buff DPS, health to at least the values for 1 slugga squad. Sluggas have repair, Waaagh abilities in T1 out-of-the-box, but hormagants have a faster movement speed as a counterbalance. 1 slugga squad + warboss + shoota boys (big shootas), can bleed off squads of hormagants during the advance to melee combat.

If it was Elite team's intention that Sluggas be fewer and stronger versus hormagants, then my secondary proposal would be to decrease the built-time and reinforcement cost of hormagants. The secondary proposal is probably move favorable, since it emphasizes the "endless swarm"

Hormagaunts are far more dedicated to the defeat of enemy ranged units than they are of enemy melee units. The opposite is true of termagants. Yes this is a bit unique for nids (and eldar) in that their melee unit counters ranged units and their ranged units counter melee units. Horms counter enemy ranged. Terms counter enemy melee. So the whole "nid melee vs ork melee" idea is missing the point. Try using hormagants/warriors vs 2ork shootas, even with both upgrades they fail. That's why ork melee needs to be able to beat up nid melee. Conversely termagants deal with sluggas very well indeed, much better than shootas do horms. Because 1) termagants fire in bursts so can do a bunch of damage then back off reloading while kiting, 2) terms are speed 6, sluggas are not speed 6.5 like horms, 3) termagants get an ability that snares units.

Hormagaunts have a leap that does damage and move at speed 6.5. They do more dps per pop than any other melee squad in the game. To compensate they start with the lowest melee skill of a dedicated melee squad (55) and lack an ability (unlike heretics). The melee skill + lack of an ability is what makes them so bad in melee vs melee fights.

Of course later on their amazing damage to pop ratio can come into its own when hormagaunts+warriors fight something together since the warriors knock over the foe. And you have to remember that the pop:damage/cost ratio of hormagaunts just gets better and better as you go through the tiers and give the horms more upgrades without increasing their pop, or you add more hormagaunt squads that are all supported by one melee synapse warrior.

Genestealers on the other hand are a dedicated melee superiority squad. Pop to damage wise they are amazing too and because of their gigantic melee skill and insanely strong ability they beat pretty much any ork melee there is, including nobs if you time the adrenal rush well and they have synapse. That's the only unit which can be fairly compared to ork melee.

Ergo, hormagaunts are fine how they are. I think people forget that horms have practically no upkeep and are only 8 pop and speed 6.5. They're a great little squad as far as cost effectiveness goes but to throw them up against sluggas is like complaining about how guardsmen utterly fail vs tacs.

No matter what you say and how you justify their current state, the picture is always the same for me. Whenever I play any faction against tyranids I always laugh at these pathetic hormagaunts, they can't fight my tacs/csm/especially strike squads, even with their high speed they drop their models like flies while closing the distance and if they make it to a ranged unit (shoota boyz, guardsmen, etc) they will quickly be withered down by anything due to their complete inability to fight other melee squads and inability to perform tracking special attacks against ranged units or pin them in place somehow. I will dare to say they are the worst melee unit in the game. Raveners are also laughable, the worst jump unit in the game. All tyranids' T1 melee units are disgusting frankly speaking.

Slugga boyz do not shine in T1, though they are still better than hormagaunts. And compared to hormagaunts they become ungodly powerful in T2, their fucking nob is undying, their ability to wear heavy armour on demand as well as boosting their speed and with no penalties whatsoever make them really badass. Throw in here an absolute beast of a jump unit which are the stormboyz and you easily have the best pair of melee oriented units in the game who fuck everything if work together.

Whenever I play orks and use their brutal melee units I feel like OMG, so much fucking damage, give me more stuff to kill!
And whenever I try to do something with nidz' T1 melee units I feel like... Oh fuck this, I am better off relying on my commanders and let these fucks (raveners, warriors, hormagaunts) deal with just ranged units (after a decade they will eventually cause enough damage and force retreat...) while my commander is busy raping everything else. HT with his charge and 360 knockback after that is just unfair if no proper counter-measures are used. Lictor with his very underrated claws that cause suppression and knockback is also unbeatable. But I wouldn't say that orks' heroes are worse.

Not really suggesting anything, just sharing my view on how this goes in my games.

P. S. I didn't talk selectively about bad games I had using tyranids or good games I had using orks. It is the general view.

Hormas will wipe the floor with Sluggas when supported by a Warrior Brood or the Hive Tyrant. That's the whole point of Nids, you buff your useless critters with Synapse and knockback to win fights you otherwise wouldn't.

Melee Ravs still suck though.

What about Knob's sudden shotgun blast? What about warboss' presence (hammer, stomp, debuff or buff) and his godlike global abilities? Or mekboy's heal/electric armour? Or the lovely painboy?! I would argue that orks have MORE tools to support their little ones who become beasts even without any help.

Sub_Zero wrote:What about Knob's sudden shotgun blast? What about warboss' presence (hammer, stomp, debuff or buff) and his godlike global abilities? Or mekboy's heal/electric armour? Or the lovely painboy?! I would argue that orks have MORE tools to support their little ones who become beasts even without any help.

ummm tyranids have really good heroes too? HT with rending talons makes sluggas really sad, he also has the brood nest. so does acid splatter Ravener, and he also has the damage synapse and hive node. Lictor can get pheremones so you have on field reinforcement. yeah they dont have a painboy but synapse more than makes up for that imo.
nid globals arent too bad either.

Y'all are still missing the point. OFC hormagaunts are shit compared to sluggas in T1 - warriors/the HT make them make them take 20% less damage and horms are only 8 pop. Sluggas are 12. So then you say, ok, let's do 3x horms vs 2x sluggas but because I what I said earlier that is silly. Terms counter sluggas not horms. Try 3x terms vs 2x sluggas. Sluggas get wrecked in T1, because in T1 that's how you counter sluggas, that or a BSWB or hero wargear. Now try 3x horms vs 2 big shoota shoota boys. The shootas don't stand a chance and you're all over the map. Honestly the main reason horms aren't used isn't because they're shit as a combat unit, it's more that using them leaves you really vunlerable to the ork heroes. Between cybork or spiky armour, the frag grenades and teleportation+electric armour... Yeah you need those 2 terms. Personally I do enjoy going 2 horms, 1 term, 1 rav as the HT quite often. Giving the rav devourers immediately. As RA/LA I add in warriors after the ravs. It works. It's very efficient in 1v1, kinda sucks in team games as the speed 6.5 of horms is pretty much useless.

1 GSB + AG wars vs 2x fully upgraded sluggas wins. That's 27 pop vs 34 pop. And the nid squads are cheaper and they don't have a chance of losing their "leader models" since nids don't get one. They just get synapse which is a one-off purchase which itself costs no additional upkeep.

Ravs aren't meant to be epic in melee. They're only 12 pop compared to the 15 of stormboyz/asm/raptors but they get versatility. They are just as good in melee when they have devourers as when without. Their burrow has huge knockback which synergises with hormagaunts really well and decimates ranged blobs. Sure they are no ASM vs set-up teams due to their lower hp and LI but they would be OP if thye were. Nids need some weaknesses. Also, don't forget that ravs are speed 6.5 just like horms and genes. They are amazing at wiping stuff on retreat after a burrow. Then in T2 they can infiltrate and do great knockback on demand, which again synergises with the huge dps per pop of hormagaunts and their speed to devour enemy melee. They're a great little squad albeit a niche one.

And then whatever woes tyranids have in T1 vs suppression are completely resolved by the fact that they have by far the strongest artillery unit in the game - the zoanthrope. It counters everything. Most cost effective unit in the game.

^^ exactly

Torpid has spoken....

so many people forget synapse when making this comparison.... ofcource hormas are worse than sluggas in a entity vs entity situation, which isn't a good balance basis. but hormas, just like every other nid unit, need synapse to be at full effectiveness, not to mention hormas cost less so they bleed less, combine that with nids good T2 eco and you got yourself a party.

hiveminion wrote:Hormas will wipe the floor with Sluggas when supported by a Warrior Brood or the Hive Tyrant. That's the whole point of Nids, you buff your useless critters with Synapse and knockback to win fights you otherwise wouldn't.

hiveminion, in the replay we showed the results of throwing together 3x hormagaunts(adrenals) + 1 warrior squad(adrenals, no barbed strangler) versus 3x sluggas(burnas, nobz)...the sluggas were left standing, but maybe if I had done any micro in that experiment, or my opponent didn't use Waaagh, the outcome would have been different.

I am going to retract my first proposal, because as fun as it would be to combine webway/tunnel networks, allowing this would probably make Eldar OP in team games.

How hard is it to kill a model of warriors especially in T2? Not hard at all! Warriors are always exposed to damage. Venom broods aren't. They can just stand behind lines and provide their synapse. That is why I think ranged nidz are superior to melee oriented nidz. Warriors are just a really bad melee squad but when you get that barbed strangler they start doing a very useful thing and don't expose themselves to damage that much as well as forcing initiation from the enemy's side. Raveners are even worse but when you get their ranged weapons they truly become decent due to high damage. Then in T2 you get venom brood - another really strong ranged unit as it is and they provide synapse without being damaged. And you get a zoanthrope. Something that gives you good artillery attack, heals your units and gives you a snare. I am still inclined to say that ranged tyranids > melee tyranids (at least for T1, T2-T3 melee nidz are beasts). This of course varies for different MU's.

Don't forget that synapse is a bomb. It provides benefits (melee synapse < ranged synapse IMO) but it can screw you in a blink of an eye. You don't mention this fact for some reason.

Sub_Zero wrote:-

What race has better T1 melee than it does ranged units?
It's mostly the dominance of suppression and heroes in T1 that makes melee so useless.

i dont know about you @sub_zero but loosing warriors sounds more like a passage of play thing, not a balance thing.

its easy to keep warriors alive and keep them useful. have you even seen floid play?

have you even seen floid play?

Not only did I see but also played once against him and kept him near his base (that was a 3 v 3 game on Calderis) with my OP Chaos units that deal too much damage to HI.

but loosing warriors sounds more like a passage of play thing, not a balance thing.

Do warriors need to be around their melee units in order to provide melee synapse? They do.

Does that mean they are more exposed to damage than their colleagues who provide ranged synapse? It does.

Are you aware that heavy armour is a DISADVANTAGE for melee combat? You should be.

Are you aware that a whole lot of melee units deal power melee damage along with most melee oriented heroes? Look it up on Codex.

Summing up all these factors I absolutely disagree with your statement that it is EASY to keep warriors alive. Even one more factor - they are hard to keep alive because nowadays every faction has a decent/sometimes even more than that answer in the form of a ranged unit. Sudden death of a warrior is almost a guaranteed victory for your opponent in an even melee fight.

What race has better T1 melee than it does ranged units?

That is an interesting question. Let me analyze. Let's take for examples races that have more than 2 melee oriented units in their T1.

Orks' ranged units are superior to their melee units. Very high damage coming from shoota boyz and a very useful trait for a setup team which is infiltration. But stormboyz and slugga boyz alone are better than tyranids' melee units even in T1. Stormboyz have crazy damage, their lack of on land effect is compenstated by suppression on demand from shoota boyz, so nothing gets away from them. Slugga boyz can be trashed by ranged fire but they are still good at chasing due to their flamers and tracking special attacks, their damage is also higher.

Chaos have really great melee units and I would not say that their ranged army composition is superior to their melee units. Aspiring heretics are probably the best counter-initiation unit among T1-units, raptors are good, definitely worse than say ASM but they do not die without completing their job like say raveners who take a lot of damage while they "jump", then they don't deal enough damage themselves to force off anything and then they just die due to their armour type because they can't withstand ranged fire (T1 it is mostly piercing ranged fire).

So I would say that slight adjustments to tyranids' T1 melee units could be done. Because they seem really unattractive to use.

I would move in these directions.

Increase hormagaunts overall DPS so they do more damage than slugga boyz. Why? They have a pathetic melee skill. Every other melee unit will toss them around. Their damage type is also nothing impressive. Such a big gap in melee skill won't let them beat other melee units anyway but at least when they manage to get their claws on something they will cause a little bit more harm before they retreat (ATM it is just pointless to send them against RANGED units like csm, tacs, strike squads, they don't beat them 1 v 1 if they need to close the distance, it just cannot be right). In T2 they don't have a leader with huge DPS or some useful ability so with the increased amount of ordinary models they cannot be OP. Also worth mentioning that almost every lightly armoured melee unit has some ability to DRASTICALLY reduce incoming ranged fire, hormagaunts don't, even their fast speed don't help, they just die under fire while other melee units tank it pretty well.

Warriors in T1 are alright given there are less counters to HI than it is in T2. So let's move on to raveners.

And here we have a completely incompetent jump unit. First thing that grates me is the requirement of energy to perform a "jump". 75 is just not right. I would reduce that to adequate 65. Another thing is just laughable. The point of any jump unit is to close the distance to a ranged unit without taking damage. When raveners perform their burrowing they DO take damage. Which is nonsense and absurd. Give them the standard 90% damage resistance while "airborne". Though we talk about T1 performance, let me mention this. They have a really overpriced T2 ability. It just shouldn't cost that much. I would just reduce that to 15 power or buff it somehow. Give them more melee damage if they equip it regardless they have already ranged weapons or not. One good thing about T2 jump units is that they all have on land effect and really high damage which instantly should force a setup team to retreat if no loses are welcome. Raveners cannot have their melee synapse, they will die before warriors get to them, so more damage is a fair addition to their performance.

Sub_Zero wrote:

have you even seen floid play?

Not only did I see but also played once against him and kept him near his base (that was a 3 v 3 game on Calderis) with my OP Chaos units that deal too much damage to HI.

but loosing warriors sounds more like a passage of play thing, not a balance thing.

Do warriors need to be around their melee units in order to provide melee synapse? They do.

Does that mean they are more exposed to damage than their colleagues who provide ranged synapse? It does.

Are you aware that heavy armour is a DISADVANTAGE for melee combat? You should be.

Are you aware that a whole lot of melee units deal power melee damage along with most melee oriented heroes? Look it up on Codex.

Summing up all these factors I absolutely disagree with your statement that it is EASY to keep warriors alive. Even one more factor - they are hard to keep alive because nowadays every faction has a decent/sometimes even more than that answer in the form of a ranged unit. Sudden death of a warrior is almost a guaranteed victory for your opponent in an even melee fight.

incase you forgot warriors in T1 emit BASIC SYNAPSE, not melee synapse, and the synapse range is higher than you think. the synapse range is 32 which is a little under the range of most range weapons. so stick them in cover and be defensive, or get them to go cap, if you charge them in head first, you're doing it wrong.

you're forgetting that this is a 1v1 balance mod, not a 3v3 balance mod. warriors for 25 power in a 1v1 is pretty insane.

again, a passage of play thing, not balance.

in an even melee fight.

melee synapse where?

melee syanapse increases the melee skill of other units, that means nothing can beat nids melee due to the melee skill. there is no such thing as an "even melee fight" vs nids as melee synapse grants melee skill.


also don't patronize me, or i'm going to end up not liking you a whole lot less than what i already do.

To be fair, in the replay, the hormas did get synapse, and they were still outclassed by the Sluggas. The Synapse did not help the hormas because synapse backlash killed the hormaguants for me.

Yes, SLuggas should beat Hormas in a straight 1v1 fight, their pricing dictates that, but they should not beat them when they have adrenal glands and warrior support as easily as they did, even taking into consideration Frazzle!, they should be able to do that.

Sluggas beat every other starting unit in the game in melee. Horma's get crushed, scouts don't stand a chance, guardsman are just guardsman, heretics w/o AC get melted, and even with AC it is dumbly close if the tics even survive, not mention Sluggas are one of the best T1 bashing units, since 90% of time, burnas are just a basic upgrade you get anyway, and having to get burnas would not put you behind in tech compared to getting flamers on tacs, which are just straight up more expensive for only having one job.

Yes, sluggas can get beaten by suppression teams, but if they rush T2 and get a wartrukk, they just rid behind them and tear them to pieces in retreat. Yes, that is a basic response for orks if they get t2 first to deal with set up teams if they want to keep a very mobile army, but it gets rid of the one counter to sluggas in T1, and in T2, their nob leader gives them a huge advantage over other melee squads. They basically force out a vehicle to keep your units alive, and by the time they get out the vehicle, the orks prolly already have tankbustas out anyway.

Hefnd Rikir wrote:heretics w/o AC get melted, and even with AC it is dumbly close if the tics even survive

Heretics even without AC can beat dedault sluggas just sayin, and AC tics can pretty much kill anything and everything in T1 if they can get close enough. just need to time the doomblast well so it hits lots of models.

Ven wrote:

Hefnd Rikir wrote:heretics w/o AC get melted, and even with AC it is dumbly close if the tics even survive

Heretics even without AC can beat dedault sluggas just sayin, and AC tics can pretty much kill anything and everything in T1 if they can get close enough. just need to time the doomblast well so it hits lots of models.

I have tried doing this against sluggas, and the sluggas win out, every time, regardless of doomblast, they have lost. The only time I have won doing this was with PC using Touch of Nurgle on them. In my experience as mediocre at best player, Tics lose every time.

I am not saying Tics are bad, they are one of my favorite units in the game, they just straight up lose to sluggas, in my games.

Doomblast, kite, doomblast, repeat until sluggas are at low enough hp (2 good hits should do), engage, tics win. That is if you guys are still playing in a vacuum with one unit.

Hefnd Rikir wrote:To be fair, in the replay, the hormas did get synapse, and they were still outclassed by the Sluggas. The Synapse did not help the hormas because synapse backlash killed the hormaguants for me.

Yes, SLuggas should beat Hormas in a straight 1v1 fight, their pricing dictates that, but they should not beat them when they have adrenal glands and warrior support as easily as they did, even taking into consideration Frazzle!, they should be able to do that.

Sluggas beat every other starting unit in the game in melee. Horma's get crushed, scouts don't stand a chance, guardsman are just guardsman, heretics w/o AC get melted, and even with AC it is dumbly close if the tics even survive, not mention Sluggas are one of the best T1 bashing units, since 90% of time, burnas are just a basic upgrade you get anyway, and having to get burnas would not put you behind in tech compared to getting flamers on tacs, which are just straight up more expensive for only having one job.

Yes, sluggas can get beaten by suppression teams, but if they rush T2 and get a wartrukk, they just rid behind them and tear them to pieces in retreat. Yes, that is a basic response for orks if they get t2 first to deal with set up teams if they want to keep a very mobile army, but it gets rid of the one counter to sluggas in T1, and in T2, their nob leader gives them a huge advantage over other melee squads. They basically force out a vehicle to keep your units alive, and by the time they get out the vehicle, the orks prolly already have tankbustas out anyway.

Not banshees. or catas. not strikes.

Batpimp wrote:
Not banshees. or catas. not strikes.

None of them are starting units. Granted, this distinction about them beating other starting units in melee is totally meaningless.

I can't believe what I'm reading from Sub-Zero.
Hormagaunts are more than fine. Learn to use synapse. Warriors do not need to be at the frontline.
Best way to use them is to run them in for the knock back, the enemy will try to focus them and you turn them back.
That way your hormas will get free hits in and will devour the unit that is silly enough to try and chase your warriors.

Some time ago Caeltos was online on Twitch and told us about his ideas/wanted changes for the next update and it sounded quite good. Maybe we should just do one step after another and wait for the next patch before things get out of hands?

if you charge them in head first, you're doing it wrong.

You do want them to charge in first. Why? Heavy armour and T1 with mostly piercing ranged units. In T2 it is another story, warriors cannot tank damage like they do in T1 unless the opposing army didn't care about counters to HI.

you're forgetting that this is a 1v1 balance mod, not a 3v3 balance mod. warriors for 25 power in a 1v1 is pretty insane.

And you seem to forget that this purchase is countered by a slightly more expensive purchase of a suppression team...

Warriors do not need to be at the frontline.

So you send your hormagaunts first, they lose models, that is your way?

Best way to use them is to run them in for the knock back, the enemy will try to focus them and you turn them back.

That is actually what I do. Then crippling poison is used and warriors can tie up a defensless ranged unit.

melee syanapse increases the melee skill of other units, that means nothing can beat nids melee due to the melee skill. there is no such thing as an "even melee fight" vs nids as melee synapse grants melee skill.

If you are not aware then let me "patronize" you. Even under melee synapse T1 tyranids' melee combatants (we talk about them, ARE YOU NOT FORGETTING?!) have 70 (raveners, warriors themselves) and hormagaunts have their pathetic 65. Huh, fella?

Exterminatus! Exterminatus on my position!

Sub_Zero wrote:You do want them to charge in first. Why? Heavy armour and T1 with mostly piercing ranged units. In T2 it is another story, warriors cannot tank damage like they do in T1 unless the opposing army didn't care about counters to HI.

This is highly dependant on the situation and MU. Sometimes you want them in first, sometimes you don't.

Sub_Zero wrote:And you seem to forget that this purchase is countered by a slightly more expensive purchase of a suppression team...

And you seem to forget how vital synapse is for Nids while a suppression team aren't for other races. Besides, setupteams can be easily flanked or charged up to if not setup, a suppression team is mostly good if you have ground to defend.

Sub_Zero wrote:So you send your hormagaunts first, they lose models, that is your way?

I dunno why I expected more from you -.-

And yeah, it's way better to send your hormas in first, under synapse they tank like crazy in T1 and come T2 you just get endless swarm so they can tank even more thx to their 2 die last models while costing nothing to reinforce. But even better yet is to flank or go in with your infiltrating LA, (charging) HT, burrowing RA, disrupting ravs, etc. You get the idea now ... I hope.

Sub_Zero wrote:If you are not aware then let me "patronize" you. Even under melee synapse T1 tyranids' melee combatants (we talk about them, ARE YOU NOT FORGETTING?!) have 70 (raveners, warriors themselves) and hormagaunts have their pathetic 65. Huh, fella?

Who cares when you have an always guaranteed knockback at the start of the engagement with the warrior leap?!

riku pretty much hit the nail on the head here.

hormagaunts are supposed to be your bullet sponge, not the warriors. if you care about bleed on hormagaunts then you're not playing the right race.

they either focus down and force off your hormagaunts, forcing fire away from the warriors, or they ignore them and get their knee caps bitten off, its pretty much beginner level stuff.

realself wrote:Proposal: if 2 Eldar allies build webway gates, then allow their webway networks to combine. Similarly, we combine two Ravener players' tunnel networks.

I'd proposed this before too, you can find the thread and read all the terror-and-fear-of-the-Eldar for yourself

It doesn't sound like a buff that is actually needed.