Dawn of War Codex

One thing that might not have been considered when making the change from 4 model PMs to 3 model PMs is how it would reduce their hp regen to 15hp/s from 20hp/s. I don't know if this was considered and changed?

If not I feel like it should be be buffed to 6.6hp/s per model or maybe more. Since they got their on-death-explosion-healing-themselves trait removed the hp regen has been more important for their tankiness than ever before.

well maybe that would be fair.. do they still have DOT or was that removed 2? i really feel they are pretty useless for the cost.
the reason i get them is that lovely snare

The great Cornholio wrote:well maybe that would be fair.. do they still have DOT or was that removed 2? i really feel they are pretty useless for the cost.
the reason i get them is that lovely snare

Their DOT actually got buffed, well, not the DOT but the base damage. DOT include they do 25dps piercing as a squad whereas in retail they did 20dps as a squad. Pretty lame still but yeah. They do something.

i don't even reinforce the third model anymore to save on pop, their caping power under duress and their av is the beginning and end of their contribution to my army . well that and the slow aura is fun if you stick them right in the middle of a melee blob .

Torpid wrote:
If not I feel like it should be be buffed to 6.6hp/s per model or maybe more. Since they got their on-death-explosion-healing-themselves trait removed the hp regen has been more important for their tankiness than ever before.

Doesn't the reduction from 4 to 3 models compensate for this, though? Much harder to bleed them now than before.

not really, while dropping from 4 to 3 models will add to their durability , that is really only for prolong engagments in which their regen would have more of a buffer to compensate over. and again the hp regen is where their durability is at even now.

vs any form of concentrated effort the extra model hp is rarely a notable improvement. this because the deathsplosion and its inherent disruption to melee units that were trying to kill them off on retreat is a far greater survival tool than the hp regen or the hp pool.

plus less models means a greater chance to hit certain models

Cheekie Monkie wrote:

Torpid wrote:
If not I feel like it should be be buffed to 6.6hp/s per model or maybe more. Since they got their on-death-explosion-healing-themselves trait removed the hp regen has been more important for their tankiness than ever before.

Doesn't the reduction from 4 to 3 models compensate for this, though? Much harder to bleed them now than before.

It does if bleed is all you're looking for but it doesn't help them with capping nor staying behind cover and just out-lasting stuff. I think it's a warranted buff now that their deaths don't heal the other models.

I never liked how they removed their self-heal on explosion. Why remove it completely when you could at least leave 10% of its former power? Another question is Why would I not benefit from that when I have 2 plague marines? In this case it is especially silly. I have invested in two squads. If one squad loses its member then the other squad should FULLY benefit from that. Doesn't make sense as it is right now.

Answering the initial question I have to admit that they are not as resistant as they used to be. Only now I realize that their regeneration was reduced. Before the patch they seemed so hard-dying, now despite their lower model count they lose their health kinda fast?!

They lose their HP at the same rate as before, nothing changed there.

Their health-pool is the same as it used to be, right? But now it is spread between 3 models. That means every single model has more chances to survive and remain alive. But if the data about their health regeneration is correct then it is the thing I was trying to say. They don't feel anymore as "health-regenerative" as they used to be. IMO they should have it back to outlast, now I don't really think they are worth buying because we have havocs (cheaper and available in T1) with their OP damage from afar behind their wicked tzeentch marines and nearby bloodthirsty melee units who will be more than happy to aid their now resistant to melee filthy collegues.

P. S. Another chance to mention the OPness of melee resistant havocs.

P. P. S. If I remember correctly, was plague marines' speed reduced as well?

No, PM's are faster in Elite than in retail.

Edit: Looks like they are faster in Elite? (see below)

Dark Riku wrote:They lose their HP at the same rate as before, nothing changed there.

Yes, they lose it at the same rate, but they regen it at an inferior rate AND they don't regain it upon model death. Suffice to say their tankiness is barely existent anymore.

I mean, it's ok, 4hp regen per second is good, but I think 6.66666 would be more appropriate taking it back to its level on retail - just the regen, not the heal on death explosion.

In elite PMs have 4hp/s each over 3 models = 12hp/s as a squad
In retail it was 3.5hp/s each over 4 models = 14hp/s as a squad.

To be fair it's not a huge difference but in all honestly I'de rather they were buffed in elite so that their health regen is higher. I do think PMs underperform slightly at the moment and that's not so much an internal balance issue - obviously havocs shit on the face of PMs as an AV unit atm due to that melee resistance - but they've always been worse in elite. A 5dps buff hardly makes much of a difference. Sure they bleed less, but they don't kill anything when they bleed unlike in retail. Now, I understand they were OP in retail, quite obviously when they force an instant retreat on a slugga boy squad in t2 that kills one of their models, however, I think they need a something unique.

Rather than giving them the obnoxious heal on death which only serves to encourage model loss and is a bit cheesy, I think giving them 6.5hp/s regen would be a nice change to increase their viability as a squad overall and further decrease model loss on them!

Dark Riku wrote:No, PM's are faster in Elite than in retail.

They were speed 4.5 in retail, 4.0 in the mod.

Torpid wrote:Their DOT actually got buffed, well, not the DOT but the base damage. DOT include they do 25dps piercing as a squad whereas in retail they did 20dps as a squad.

25dps is correct but the Dot did get buffed from 0.75 to 1.35 over 5s so this is more than just the compensation for fewer models. Total bolter dps including dot in retail was ~15 (they have 3 bolters right?). Yeah, it's still nothing spectacular.

Some other changes from retail not mentioned:

+ snare slow effect multiplier from 0.75 to 0.6
- snare duration from 10 to 8s
- passive slow aura debuff multiplier from 0.7 to 0.8

saltychipmunk wrote:not really, while dropping from 4 to 3 models will add to their durability , that is really only for prolong engagments in which their regen would have more of a buffer to compensate over. and again the hp regen is where their durability is at even now.

Only? What about ability to tank large hits (especially aoe) without bleed or even be forced off the field?

saltychipmunk wrote:plus less models means a greater chance to hit certain models

Your point? Certain models now have +33% hp, this means in fact that unlucky models getting focused will bleed you less.

Torpid wrote:

Cheekie Monkie wrote:Doesn't the reduction from 4 to 3 models compensate for this, though? Much harder to bleed them now than before.

It does if bleed is all you're looking for but it doesn't help them with capping nor staying behind cover and just out-lasting stuff. I think it's a warranted buff now that their deaths don't heal the other models.

Once they bleed that regen drops, old pm can't maintain 16hp/s as well as new pm at 12hp/s so it's not simply 4hp/s difference overall. But yes situations like these old pm is more advantageous, though Im not sure about the capping where you are typically exposed to bigger hits in artillery etc. Certainly fewer models deal with aoe better, eg pm now barely tank 3x grenades but the old only tank 2 barely. If there's no bleed however, old pm will recover faster if the damage is spread across all models.

Another point is that explosion got severly nerfed in elite, probably justifiable but now with 3 models it's made worse again. The reason is that they still provide 150/50 heal/dmg per trigger but these are less frequent due to fewer models and each model takes longer to die and costs more. The utility of the explosion such as providing durability for your troops is therefore reduced and

saltychipmunk wrote:i don't even reinforce the third model anymore to save on pop, their caping power under duress and their av is the beginning and end of their contribution to my army...

becomes modus operandi. So I prefer the old less bland PM even if the 3 model setup were compensated for in regen or explosion effect.

hakon wrote:They were speed 4.5 in retail, 4.0 in the mod.

Retail wiki states PM's at speed 3.5 though.

Yeah. PM were slower in retail afaik.

"Plague Marine movement speed increased from 3.5 to 4.5"

Changed in 3.18 http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/p ... notes-3.18

THE WIKI HAS BEFOULED MY TRUST

I don't know why PM still keep the explosion-on-death effect. It lost half of his meaning when the heal was changed only to heal other squads, and now that PM only have three models it lost all the meaning because now the models are more expensive to reinforce and more difficult to kill and trigger the effect.

I would change the heal other squads on death for a bigger AOE damage and a bigger knockback area, since ATM its quite small IIRC. Or maybe recover the old and good debuff on death.

Sorry for this little off-topic.