Purification Vials VS Blight Grenade

[egewithin]

Purification Vials Costs 100 / 25
Does 45 damage in radius 7,5
Does 10 flame damage
It lasts for 15 seconds
Effects in radius 15
Range 20
Cooldown 40 seconds

Blight Grenades Costs 100 / 20
Does 65 damage in radius 7,5
Does 10 flame damage
It lasts for 10 seconds
If the models touched to the gas, they all take 5 more damage per second
It takes another 10 seconds
The infection jumps from squads to squads
These models takes 5 damage per second eather

I think Blight Grenades Deserves a cost increase or Purification Vials deserves a buff. Because this doesn't look very balanced.

[Slaaneshi Cacophony]

They're both fine as they are.

Purification Vials are a brilliant tool for area denial and enemy infantry doesn't have to be immediately in the blast radius for it to have a detrimental effect against their health, damage output or movement options.

Blight Grenades deal a heavier burst of damage if the target squad/s is caught in the explosion but the blast radius is so ridiculously small that it's fairly easy to avoid once you see the Plague Champion with that grenade indicator over his head, unless the targets are stunned or suppressed, but the same logic can apply to the vials too. The threat of the grenade itself is also immediately over if nothing gets hit, unlike with the vials. I don't think I've ever had the infection mechanic turn the tide of a battle either when it came to the raw damage freshly infected squads (i.e. squads not in the initial blast) took, it's minimal at best.

[egewithin]

[quote="Slaaneshi Cacophony"] ''/quote]

I said that before to myself eather. But Blight Grenade is more dangerous and costs less. Only that little little point looked unfair to me but unfair part looks ennecesserly serious. Even I shouldn't bring this to forum maybe? :/ But hey, I have a point!

[Dark Riku]

They both have their pros and cons which is fine.
The part that seems strange to me is the cost difference.

The threat of the grenade itself is also immediately over if nothing gets hit, unlike with the vials.

The plague nade also leaves an AoE behind even if nothing is hit.

[Cheekie Monkie]

You don't see vials being used often because it's often overlooked in favour of the more versatile and safer rites/medical equipment. That doesn't mean that it's not potentially devastating against light infantry though, being able to cordon off a corridor of the map for a whopping 15 seconds.

Example
Apo and tac moves in to gen bash in Outer Reaches
Horma and 2x termas move in to intercept
Apo throws grenades
Hormas have the back off, possibly having to redirect via the longer corridor
Termas cannot effectively do their full damage without getting into the cloud of death
Gen bash looks secure

The keynote to take in here is the pure zoning potential of the vials, it creates an absolute no go zone for light infantry. Of course, I could expand the narrative a bit:

Flesh hook
LA kills the whole SM army
GG no re

[egewithin]

The part that seems strange to me is the cost difference.

Yes, this is what I exactly wanted to say.

Come on, I have poisined more than 2.000.000 nids and 3 Eldar for 2 days with Apo. (Hard to find Eldar nowadays) I know how it works. But why they have a cost difference? Should we change it?

[Tex]

I think the answer is pretty simple.

I won't get into the differences on the grenades themselves as you guys have aptly done.

It seems however that people are completely forgetting composition.
Here is a prime example: The apo has access to an on demand point and click aoe knockback skill that sets up vials very easily. This knockback (if you haven't figured it out yet, its scout shotguns) is present in almost every game played, and you have access to it in every single game without deviating your build order.
The PC on the other hand has access to a skillshot knockback (in grenade launcher heretics), and while he has access to it every game, I think its safe to say most people would consider it a deviation of build order unless one's opponent has presented you with a suitable reason to upgrade into GL heretics.

I'm sure if I cared to, I could provide more examples, but I'm hoping that this illustrates the point well enough.

In the end, both combinations cost a total of 40 power.

[Atlas]

Well the PC can just get the Bile Spewer and provide his own opportunity to throw a blight grenade both from the ability of the spewer and from the natural slow that it inflicts on an opponent. It isn't too much more expensive and gives you a very great general weapon that can gen bash too.

Honestly, with all the supression from T1 Chaos I think you can make an argument that Blight Grenades probably deservedly need a power cost increase to 25 power.

[Dark Riku]

It seems however that people are completely forgetting composition.

No Tex, people are not forgetting compositions at all.

[Torpid]

Not to mention the apo gets these extremely tanky melee units in T1 which do knockback on landing and are pretty beastly in melee which he can throw vials on which results in them losing little health and their opponents getting butchered. Then the apo can just give them a heal and they can jump out.

Apo synergises with vials a bit better than PC tbf, plus the vials give apo anti garrison which is much more needed on him than on the PC, PC often having his nm/gl tics and nearly always having his bile spewer.

[Daddy]

No changes necessary. As an Avid PC player, I can say that Blight grenades are fine. Frankly the investment in blight grenades is almost laughable. The only real scenario to get them is when overwhelmed with enemy melee aggression in early...early ...early t1. Even then it only acts as a deterrent and loses its viability fast. As upgraded melee units squad leaders begin to tolerate the scare.


The spewer would obviously be the better choice to control the any melee aggression and it doubles as a power harass tool that scales into t2.

[saltychipmunk]

well, i can see one reason why there is a cost difference,

apoth has an implicit ability and a passive ability.

the plague champion effectively is just a slow moving bolter. getting something on him is kind of needed in many cases where as an apothecary can easily do without wargear in t1.

this is particularly true against heavy melee rushes which actually crush pc since unlike the cl or the sorcer he has no ability that does aoe damage nor does he have melee. until upgrades are purchased that is.

[Dark Riku]

apoth has an implicit ability and a passive ability.

While the PC has multiple passive abilities.

this is particularly true against heavy melee rushes which actually crush pc since unlike the cl or the sorcer he has no ability that does aoe damage nor does he have melee. until upgrades are purchased that is.

Heretics.

[saltychipmunk]

the dot on his bolter doesn't benefit allies and has its own trade off in the form of a reduced base dps and its greatest strength requires the pc to be winning a fight already.
and while he can fire while suppressed, he cant move normally.

you can't compare them to a passive heal aura and an active heal that requires no investment for other units or upgrades.

and no tic worship does not count because that is an active ability on heretics requiring them be otherwise occupied .

saddly the double tic opener is not always so dependable , (it is great if the melee rush doesn't happen to have a melee commander) but an actual melee commander can effectively neutralize a tic blob if thrown into the head of a melee rush. them melee specials man , the pain is real.

and sure you can bait and kite , but most of the time non upgrades tics outright loose the bleed war if even 1 light ranged squad is around



(note i am not saying pc is under powered, what i am saying is because he lacks an active ability at the start of the game he is very vulnerable to rush strategies)

[Dark Riku]

My problem here is that you are not making an actual point.

And on top of that saying things that don't make sense either.
Going multiple melee squads is not a good idea versus a plague champion at all.
What does his bolter not affecting allies has anything to do with this? Thanks to the DoT his bolter does way better on retreat, versus cover, etc.

[saltychipmunk]

well context then, i am talking the opening engagement before the pc gets all of his juicy anti melee blob wargear.

my point is the apothecary starts with an ability that can have a large impact on resolving the initial fights of a match where as most of the perks associated with the starting plague champion dont. it is the same deal if you were to compare say a tech marine vs a force commander. a force commanders battle cry can basically be the difference between making an attacking melee squad a legitimate threat to the tactical marines and the tacs wiping them out.

that is what i mean by field presence. yes the plague champion has a ranged attack, yes the plauge champion is good for dealing with retreating units.
but what he is not good at out of the gate is contributing that special something wild card that can swing an early game battle in his favor. he is essentially a second ranged unit until he gets a wargear option.

there is nothing about his starting self one needs to watch out for , no heals to bait by focusing on a weak unit , no stomps to watch out for , no battle cries , no force fields , stuns or suppression immunity . no passive auras that make the rest of his starting army more resilient and a little faster , no ability to destroy cover.

all he is in the beginning is a ranged unit. strong against all the things a typical ranged unit is strong against and weak against the things ranged units are weak against... whose only major tool is to kite, run away or harass but in a stand up fight he is at a clear disadvantage.

you simply cant look at that and then all the abilities other commanders get out of the gate and say yeah he can do the same thing. that would be dishonest at best.

he can do different things , like the aforementioned kiting and harassing , but being able to do different things means his weaknesses are different too... and in my opinion his really early game field presence is lack luster because of it. now that does not mean he is unbalanced , broken or under-powered , because when he does get his war gear he is a completely different can of worms.

[Crewfinity]

the plague champion may not be a dedicated anti-melee commander like you could argue that the warboss or force commander are, but in my opinion he is still able to do quite well in the early game. granted you cant be as aggressive with him, but his DOT bolter really punishes early unupgraded melee squads. when you factor in the heretics that you can use for counter initiation, its really tough to force him off with a melee rush in the early game. you just have to play the style differently, same as with the techmarine. stick him in green cover and he'll punish any squad that tries to approach, be it banshees, sluggas, or other heretics.

[Dark Riku]

@saltychipmunk

And all of this has to do what exactly in relation to the grenades being discussed?
If you're comparing early melee punishment (no upgrades) between apo and the PC then the PC is better because of heretics and having more ranged DPS to gun down charging squads with. I wouldn't call his early game field presence lack luster at all. Got both the ranged and melee threats covered with CSM+PC in the front with heretics worshipping in the back.

no passive auras that make the rest of his starting army more resilient and a little faster

New hero?

[Atlas]

the plague champion may not be a dedicated anti-melee commander like you could argue that the warboss or force commander are, but in my opinion he is still able to do quite well in the early game. granted you cant be as aggressive with him, but his DOT bolter really punishes early unupgraded melee squads. when you factor in the heretics that you can use for counter initiation, its really tough to force him off with a melee rush in the early game. you just have to play the style differently, same as with the techmarine. stick him in green cover and he'll punish any squad that tries to approach, be it banshees, sluggas, or other heretics.

Correction: Plague Champion is THE anti-melee commander in the game. I can't think of a single wargear that doesn't help him defeat/greatly hinder melee squads.

Otherwise, in total agreement.

[saltychipmunk]

@saltychipmunk

And all of this has to do what exactly in relation to the grenades being discussed?
If you're comparing early melee punishment (no upgrades) between apo and the PC then the PC is better because of heretics and having more ranged DPS to gun down charging squads with. I wouldn't call his early game field presence lack luster at all. Got both the ranged and melee threats covered with CSM+PC in the front with heretics worshipping in the back.

no passive auras that make the rest of his starting army more resilient and a little faster

New hero?

well i was mostly referring to synapse and its effects on gaunts but then i remembered the leap is that upgrade so that was partial error on my part , i was just to tired to edit it when i realized that.


simple pury vials are more expensive than blight grenades because the apoth already has an ability. it is kind of the concept of diminishing returns. the apoth already can heal so it makes perfect sense for his grenade to be inferior in some way to the blight grenades considering the pc does not start with any kind of ability .

that was the original point to it all. it makes them more equal in value as commanders the pc is cheaper but he only gets the one ability, where as the apoth is more expensive but retains a secondary ability and is thus more versatile heal dudes or murder a blob of light infantry vs just being able to murder a blob of infantry.

[Dark Riku]

simple pury vials are more expensive than blight grenades because the apoth already has an ability. it is kind of the concept of diminishing returns. the apoth already can heal so it makes perfect sense for his grenade to be inferior in some way to the blight grenades considering the pc does not start with any kind of ability .

that was the original point to it all. it makes them more equal in value as commanders the pc is cheaper but he only gets the one ability, where as the apoth is more expensive but retains a secondary ability and is thus more versatile heal dudes or murder a blob of light infantry vs just being able to murder a blob of infantry.

That doesn't make any sense. You put no value in being able to build a turret or, later in the game, be able to repair vehicles.

[saltychipmunk]

you are right , i don't because "later in the game" is decidedly not the early game. And there are no chaos vehicles in t1.

this is not about what he can do later , this is what he can do at the start and it is clear all of his t1 gear is built around that void with either being unnaturally cost effective or unnaturally potent. (with exception maybe of fetid armor).

The turret can make a valid argument sure, but it costs pop and the resources of a cheap squad. I wouldn't call it an ability because really it is more used like a global than as an ability. It also has a distinctively different set of situations in which it is useful . none of which apply to the first match up unless that is an unbelievably late first fight and he is turtling a lane or something. turrets are investments , much like squads are and like squads that investment can be completely wasted. so there is a measure of risk behind it more so than a simple mismatch of wargear which stays with a commander until the match ends.

[Dark Riku]

Non of this is any justification for the difference in price, especially since he doesn't struggle early game.

[saltychipmunk]

that is debatable too. depending on ones definition of early game and the match up.

[egewithin]

The fact is, Blight grenades are more powerfull than Purf. Vials, however costs less. 5 power is not a huge deal and doesn't deserves that much discussing IMO. It is pretty clear I think. If we can decrease the Electric armors cost by 10 req, we should be able to decrease Blight Grenades cost by 5 power right?

I get your point where Apo has already an ability in the begginnig. However, this is not really helping to the topic. The really point is about wargears themselfs. Apos heal ability is not our really point here. Yes, we should count it but is far away from the topic.

[Dark Riku]

The fact is, Blight grenades are more powerfull than Purf. Vials

That's not entirely true either, they both have their different uses.
The blight grenade has the most damage potential, yes. But the purification vials have better area denial functionality.

[Torpid]

Non of this is any justification for the difference in price, especially since he doesn't struggle early game.

If the PC doesn't struggle early game when does he? It seems to me he's specifically weakest in the early game compared to the CL with his out of the gate high hp and anti-melee, and the CS' anti-melee and early anti-suppression. Whereas the PC comes into his own in late t1 with the bile spewer and mid T2 with his las-turrets, shrines and epic anti-melee wargear plus globals.

Anyway, this is hardly relevant.

Me and Tex already elaborated on why vials aren't so up-front scary as blight grenades yet are still justified in costing/doing what they are/do.

[egewithin]

The fact is, Blight grenades are more powerfull than Purf. Vials

That's not entirely true either, they both have their different uses.
The blight grenade has the most damage potential, yes. But the purification vials have better area denial functionality.

Aren't both effect in radius 15?

[Dark Riku]

According to Codex:
Both grenade explosions have a 7.5 radius.
Blight grenade AoE has a 7.5 radius and lasts 10 secs.
Purification vile AoE has a 15 radius and lasts 15 secs.