Balance Concerns from Critical32
Posted: Tue 12 May, 2015 11:26 pm
Hello all,
I've been talking with some members in the Korean community, and so has Critical32 (who's a Korean). He has compiled some balance concerns regarding the current patch (not the new one that's about to come out). Some of the issues may have already been addressed in the new patch notes, but nonetheless, he feels quite strongly about these balance concerns and has asked me to translate them so that they may be posted on the forums. Here they are.
Opening
-------
I believe that this mod is balanced around heavy infantry with not enough regard for horde armies.
Overall Balance Concern
-----------------------
Originally, horde armies have fought shoulder to shoulder against expensive units with low upkeep and cheap units. However, now in the ELITE mod, the armies that have expensive units have been buffed significantly. Because of this, in the very early stages of games, it is quite common to see non-horde armies have various unit combinations and have more units, which helps them takes away more resources and more generators.
The way it was in the past has been the power-armor armies would have had fewer but stronger units playing defensively, benefiting the most from those units and gaining experience by killing horde armies and thus having a more even fighting ground in T2 by getting upgrades and having some levels. Instead, now in the ELITE mod, power armor armies can just go heavy T1 and simply overrun the horde armies. (Take Chaos for example, which are good at anti-infantry. Fielding 2 tics (melee), 1 CSM (defense), 1 Havoc (suppression), 1 NM (gen bash and slaughtering hordes).)
Space Marine Balance Concerns
-----------------------------
Apothecary - Purification Vials
It is good to think about these concerns alongside the PC's nade.
45 grenade damage (where most horde army units have less than 100hp) means half of HP are gone, and then DOT stacks up. This can easily wipe horde army units. On top of that, this only costs 100/20 and 25 mana (whereas Mek's electric armor is 110/30 and performs worse). This one needs to be nerfed. If the idea is that you can dodge this, simply using the vial in a map with narrow corridors means horde armies cannot even fight and have to retreat (because it acts as area-denial and tacs can deal good damage). Nerfs in dmg or grenade timer alongside cooldown are needed.
Tactical Marines
It's good that their health went up to 1050, but having their price remain the same at 450. This makes some melee units such as hormagaunts not be a cost-efficient choice at all. Moreover, the fact that another squad of tacs can be called down through drop pod for a cheap price simply ignores and overperforms the cheap price and low upkeep characteristics of horde armies. At least higher upkeep is needed to not overshadow the racial characteristics of horde armies.
Chaos Space Marine Balance Concerns
-----------------------------------
Chaos SMs now have multiple units that overlap in function, have units with more firepower where they already had plenty, and have new units that have complimented their weaknesses from retribution.
Heretic
Heretic's main role is to doomblast and deal an explosive and short burst of damage. Lowering their price to 210 is to completely block off melee approaches of horde armies and leads to a no-brainder-automatic 2 heretic build, which is not a good balance decision. Moreover, the lowering of price in heretics in conjuction with lowering of their HP is meaningless because the role of heretics is to deal explosive damage with doomblast and run away anyways. In this regard, a nerf of 5 HP is meaningless.
Noise Marines
350/30 is unbelievably cheap for a unit that has the health of tacs, takes away half of HP on many horde army sqauds, and can threaten generators. They are far more efficient than jump troops (for example, Raveners at 350/40), and alongside the buff in flamer damage type in ELITE, perform ridiculously well against infantry. They are essentially balance breakers, and their health and damage should go down.
In the current meta, a combination of Havocs and Noise mariens happen almost every time and work far too strongly against horde armies. Even though the damage on the flamer is justified since 3 flamers have been combined into one, they do damage comparable to tactical marines with flamers (515/20), block ranged attacks and ranged abilities, and the two bolter models do about 10 dps, which is higher than other weapons team side models. Even though the health is high because noise marines do not have melee resistance and have to be somewhat upfront to use their weapon, another way to think about this is that other races, who had to take heavy damage to deal with noise marines, now struggle against them even more, and because noise marines are heavy infantry, it's almost impossible to approach them when they are in heavy cover.
Chaos Khorne Dreadnought
Alongside the melee resist of walkers and the speed bonus that bloodrage grants, it's impossible to kill a Khorne dreadnought with melee and killing it is only possible by going all-in in anti-vehicle weapons. However, the problem with killing a Khorne Dreadnought in this way is that the Chaos player can simply push the advantages both in time and map with it, and by the time it goes down, the Chaos player can easily be in a position to win the game.
Chaos Space Marines
The price decrease in eternal war is unjustified, seeing that its performance is the same. Moreover, with slaughter, the Aspring champion does more melee damage than Khorne marines. This reduces the role that K-marines would have performed.
Bloodletters
With the change in damage type to power-melee, the role of K-marines is even more reduced.
Havoc Autocannon
The damage lowering through range is not low enough, and with splash and long range, this unit does too much damage. After playing with the opponent in T1 with 2 Havoc and then upgrading to 2x autocannon is devastating for horde armies.
Eldar Balance Concerns
----------------------
Banshees
Charging distance/cooldown needs to be lowered or if a unit retreats with half-health it will still be killed. Leaving 50% damage reduction on FoF in T2 alongside Farseer/WL's damage reductions on the top of long charging means ranged units cannot kill them. Moreover, warshout aids in their getting special attacks because the opponent's melee units cannot get in appropriate fighting positions.
D-Cannons
Please nerf singularity. In the late-game, the ability knockback of singularity is far too strong, as it still affects retreats.
Warp Spider Exarch's Heavy Gauge Death Spinner
Infinity knockback + bug. This one does not need any further explanation.
I've been talking with some members in the Korean community, and so has Critical32 (who's a Korean). He has compiled some balance concerns regarding the current patch (not the new one that's about to come out). Some of the issues may have already been addressed in the new patch notes, but nonetheless, he feels quite strongly about these balance concerns and has asked me to translate them so that they may be posted on the forums. Here they are.
Opening
-------
I believe that this mod is balanced around heavy infantry with not enough regard for horde armies.
Overall Balance Concern
-----------------------
Originally, horde armies have fought shoulder to shoulder against expensive units with low upkeep and cheap units. However, now in the ELITE mod, the armies that have expensive units have been buffed significantly. Because of this, in the very early stages of games, it is quite common to see non-horde armies have various unit combinations and have more units, which helps them takes away more resources and more generators.
The way it was in the past has been the power-armor armies would have had fewer but stronger units playing defensively, benefiting the most from those units and gaining experience by killing horde armies and thus having a more even fighting ground in T2 by getting upgrades and having some levels. Instead, now in the ELITE mod, power armor armies can just go heavy T1 and simply overrun the horde armies. (Take Chaos for example, which are good at anti-infantry. Fielding 2 tics (melee), 1 CSM (defense), 1 Havoc (suppression), 1 NM (gen bash and slaughtering hordes).)
Space Marine Balance Concerns
-----------------------------
Apothecary - Purification Vials
It is good to think about these concerns alongside the PC's nade.
45 grenade damage (where most horde army units have less than 100hp) means half of HP are gone, and then DOT stacks up. This can easily wipe horde army units. On top of that, this only costs 100/20 and 25 mana (whereas Mek's electric armor is 110/30 and performs worse). This one needs to be nerfed. If the idea is that you can dodge this, simply using the vial in a map with narrow corridors means horde armies cannot even fight and have to retreat (because it acts as area-denial and tacs can deal good damage). Nerfs in dmg or grenade timer alongside cooldown are needed.
Tactical Marines
It's good that their health went up to 1050, but having their price remain the same at 450. This makes some melee units such as hormagaunts not be a cost-efficient choice at all. Moreover, the fact that another squad of tacs can be called down through drop pod for a cheap price simply ignores and overperforms the cheap price and low upkeep characteristics of horde armies. At least higher upkeep is needed to not overshadow the racial characteristics of horde armies.
Chaos Space Marine Balance Concerns
-----------------------------------
Chaos SMs now have multiple units that overlap in function, have units with more firepower where they already had plenty, and have new units that have complimented their weaknesses from retribution.
Heretic
Heretic's main role is to doomblast and deal an explosive and short burst of damage. Lowering their price to 210 is to completely block off melee approaches of horde armies and leads to a no-brainder-automatic 2 heretic build, which is not a good balance decision. Moreover, the lowering of price in heretics in conjuction with lowering of their HP is meaningless because the role of heretics is to deal explosive damage with doomblast and run away anyways. In this regard, a nerf of 5 HP is meaningless.
Noise Marines
350/30 is unbelievably cheap for a unit that has the health of tacs, takes away half of HP on many horde army sqauds, and can threaten generators. They are far more efficient than jump troops (for example, Raveners at 350/40), and alongside the buff in flamer damage type in ELITE, perform ridiculously well against infantry. They are essentially balance breakers, and their health and damage should go down.
In the current meta, a combination of Havocs and Noise mariens happen almost every time and work far too strongly against horde armies. Even though the damage on the flamer is justified since 3 flamers have been combined into one, they do damage comparable to tactical marines with flamers (515/20), block ranged attacks and ranged abilities, and the two bolter models do about 10 dps, which is higher than other weapons team side models. Even though the health is high because noise marines do not have melee resistance and have to be somewhat upfront to use their weapon, another way to think about this is that other races, who had to take heavy damage to deal with noise marines, now struggle against them even more, and because noise marines are heavy infantry, it's almost impossible to approach them when they are in heavy cover.
Chaos Khorne Dreadnought
Alongside the melee resist of walkers and the speed bonus that bloodrage grants, it's impossible to kill a Khorne dreadnought with melee and killing it is only possible by going all-in in anti-vehicle weapons. However, the problem with killing a Khorne Dreadnought in this way is that the Chaos player can simply push the advantages both in time and map with it, and by the time it goes down, the Chaos player can easily be in a position to win the game.
Chaos Space Marines
The price decrease in eternal war is unjustified, seeing that its performance is the same. Moreover, with slaughter, the Aspring champion does more melee damage than Khorne marines. This reduces the role that K-marines would have performed.
Bloodletters
With the change in damage type to power-melee, the role of K-marines is even more reduced.
Havoc Autocannon
The damage lowering through range is not low enough, and with splash and long range, this unit does too much damage. After playing with the opponent in T1 with 2 Havoc and then upgrading to 2x autocannon is devastating for horde armies.
Eldar Balance Concerns
----------------------
Banshees
Charging distance/cooldown needs to be lowered or if a unit retreats with half-health it will still be killed. Leaving 50% damage reduction on FoF in T2 alongside Farseer/WL's damage reductions on the top of long charging means ranged units cannot kill them. Moreover, warshout aids in their getting special attacks because the opponent's melee units cannot get in appropriate fighting positions.
D-Cannons
Please nerf singularity. In the late-game, the ability knockback of singularity is far too strong, as it still affects retreats.
Warp Spider Exarch's Heavy Gauge Death Spinner
Infinity knockback + bug. This one does not need any further explanation.
