Dawn of War Codex

We all know that IG and Eldar used to have their detector locked in a T1.5 unit. To some extent it was a disadvantage. But this was an acceptable weakness of a race. Let's study it closely.

Unlike other races they can't just upgrade their basic unit, this means that they have to spend more resources to be able to detect. But what do they get in the end?

Rangers being snipers serve as a great tool to lead the battle the way you want. Their superior sight and weapon range allows them to force your opponent to initiate engagements. This is especially pivotal for Eldar. You have to fully commit to stop snipers' rampage. That means you stumble upon impenetrable shields with guardians behind them, these guardians are protected by weapon teams and banshees control everything that gets in the proximity. With the reduced tear-down time it is even easier now to dodge jump units. I do not even list the abilities that make rangers even more desirable. Infiltration is a great boon for a faction that play defensively. And long range knockback gives such an awesome potential for different combinations. Why do you need to incorporate a second detector and RUIN the whole thing if you already have a detector in the form of a very important to the faction unit? Not only you remove this weakness (there are situations in which rangers may not be the perfect choice) but you also make any infiltration tactics against this race obsolete. On what units will you use mines now? Guardians are more likely to be send around the map to capture points and now they can see anything and counter what they should not be countering. Shuriken platform + guardians with a detector now ruin any aggressive use of infiltration. Be that hide da boyz or scouts with grenades. So all in all I think that it was a very bad design decision to ever give this faction a second detector.

Catachans do not feel like a pivotal unit for IG but I would get them any day for their wide utility. They force you to get detectors, they can just stand behind guardsmen and sentinels providing cover (smoke) and knocking out anything that gets in the proximity and they are awesome in combat. They are probably the best loner unit in the game. Why would you not pay slightly more to have such a beast? Why do sentinels detect now? Given how retarded detection system in the game you can just send them to capture points and they will be immune to any scattered mines. Now you will never be able to pull off early aggressive infiltration tactic because the sentinel comes out on the field just when the game starts. This wasn't needed at all! I heard that the intention was to give IG some detector that can detect and take some fire and not be suppressed. But it still doesn't work this way due to the short range of detection of this detector. I think the initial goal wasn't reached and the faction has 2 detectors now what doesn't sound balanced on any level.

To sum it up I want to repeat again that even though that having detectors in T1.5 is a disadvantage, these detectors are made the way that they are strong in combat and provide a ton of utility that you wouldn't be at such a disadvantage if you get them in an undesirable situation, they will still pay off due to the aforementioned factors.

My solution is to scrap the idea to incorporate exarchs in T1 for Eldar and ruin the whole thing going about this race and to remove the ability to detect from sentinels.

I don't think you will listen to this when you already have everything established but at least I spoke up and maybe made some good points.

Scouts with Grenades outrang outrange the Exarch detection by 5. The Exarch detection is so minimal that it'll be any noticeable mostly in an agressive matter, whereas purely defensively - it's less so compelling. Keeping in mind, that the Exarch performance was readjusted, the value of the unit has shifted, which results in a more broader implication, rather than try to view it as a straight up performance.

If he wishes to incorporate Exarchs into his T1 play, that's a +25 power investment (prior the only investment possible was a +15 one), this has a MASSIVE timing influence on Eldar transitional play. And assuming he wants grenade as well, that's another +15. That's 40 power in total, from a prior investment made-possible of +15. The grand-total of economical dumps in T1 has grown quite ever so, and if you can force an exarch purchase, for say- getting a specific upgrade/unit , and you can still play around it, by forcing his investment - you can still find ways to counterplay the investment.

Sentinels have always had detection in the game also, so I don't know what you're going on about here.

Catachans are not always an ideal purchase unit, they have a tendency to bleed you when they die, and they die more frequently and consistently now. Prior to how they worked in retribution, they were seen in the same manner. Not always the ideal unit, despite the fact they had good the utility-belt on them. Their unreliability(Ol'reliable + short range) and economical damage they could inflict to yourself was too far big of a risk, then going for guardsmen/sentinel useage + transitional vech play was the better pay-off.

Caeltos wrote:S
Sentinels have always had detection in the game also, so I don't know what you're going on about here.

Sents have always been immune to mines?

So far Sentinels have always had keen sight radius of 15. That should make them immune to mines. Correct me if i am wrong here.

Sents aren't detectors, they have their proximity detection range increased from 5 to 15.

Are mines detectable by proximinty? If so wouldn't every unit in the game be immune to them?

Toilailee wrote:Sents aren't detectors, they have their proximity detection range increased from 5 to 15.

Are mines detectable by proximinty? If so wouldn't every unit in the game be immune to them?

Exactly. They aren't. They have not always been detectors. Granted, this difference is only applicable to the mekboy (whose mines used to wreck sents) and Commy mines and TM mines. Still, all of those tend to be very effective vs IG as it is and the sent change nerfed them tremendously.

What are you guys talking about? Sentinels have always had a keen sight radius of 15 since retribution.

0_o
Last patch it was definitely in the notes that the sentinel keen sight radius was being increased to 15.


I seem to remember having a much easier time going around the sentinel with hide da Boyz sluggas to get to the GM squads, it feels much more difficult now with the sentinel detection radius.

...right?! Maybe I'm just going crazy

Okay so it wasnt last patch, but 2.3.0 where the changelog states that the spotters lose detection and sentinels gained it:

Imperial Guard
* Reduced Heavy Weapon Team pop from 13 to 12
* Lord General Carapace Armor cost reduced from 175/35 to 150/30
* Bunker Health reduced from 750 to 500
* Banewolf cost increased from 350/40 to 350/60
* Spotters no longer detect infiltrated units
* Catachan Ol' reliable renamed to Ol' Unreliable
* Reduced Commissar pop by 2 (from 5 to 3) (upkeep adjusted as well)
* Reduced Sergeant pop by 2 (from 5 to 3) (upkeep adjusted as well)
* Sentinel pop increased from 12 to 15
* Sentinel now detects in a 15 radius
* Chimera cost reduced from 300/65 to 300/60
* Ogryn cost reduced from 450/90 to 425/90
* Sentinel Missile Launcher damage reduced from 70 to 65
* Kaskrin Melta Gun weapon range increased from 20 to 24
* Kasrkin Grenade Launchers now knockdown targets
* Kaskrin Grenade Launchers cooldown increased from 5 to 6
* Kasrkin Weapon Expertise removed and replaced by Kasrkin Sergeant
* Kasrkin Sergeant now grants +100 courage and +0.5 capture rate to the squad
* Baneblade health reduced from 3500 to 3250
* Baneblade turret dps increased from 26,67 to 33,3375 on all turrets
* Baneblade Demolisher cannon reduced from 300 to 225

Caeltos plz clarify 0_o

It was merely a revert. It's not exactly a "new" feature by any means.

Caeltos wrote:It was merely a revert. It's not exactly a "new" feature by any means.

Exactly. Sentinels had a keen sight radius of 15. They were not detectors like Rangers but they had an above average (3x) keen sight radius.

ahhh okay. but keen sight is essentially the same as detection, right? its just that actual detector units have a much bigger keen sight radius? aka sentinel is soft detection vs the hard detection of catachans?

Crewfinity wrote:ahhh okay. but keen sight is essentially the same as detection, right? its just that actual detector units have a much bigger keen sight radius? aka sentinel is soft detection vs the hard detection of catachans?

Exactly.

Adeptus Noobus wrote:

Crewfinity wrote:ahhh okay. but keen sight is essentially the same as detection, right? its just that actual detector units have a much bigger keen sight radius? aka sentinel is soft detection vs the hard detection of catachans?

Exactly.

So this must mean that the radius in which mines explode on is larger than 5 - if you come within >5 radius of a mine it blows up, else it would be detected and not go off. Most mines have an explosion radius of 7. But the techmarine mine can blow up an entire heretic squad, there's no way an entire heretic squad could have radius 2 from the centre of itself is there? It just seems to happen too frequently...

All these big numbers and words confuse me, can someone just tell me if my TM's proximity mines are still going to work?

I'm mean I know I don't use them very often, hardly at all actually, but I'm going to totally bitch if you nerf them.

DarnedDragoon wrote:All these big numbers and words confuse me, can someone just tell me if my TM's proximity mines are still going to work?

I'm mean I know I don't use them very often, hardly at all actually, but I'm going to totally bitch if you nerf them.

What I want to know is if mines ever worked on sentinels. I suppose I could just go test this in retail very easily but I cba so

It's important to remember that there used to be two different kinds of infiltration. One that is "perfect" infiltration, and one that is the "Standard" one, the "perfect" one would not even be by colliding into entities. Presumably, mines have "perfect" infiltration properties.

The Lictor Alpha for an ex. used to have "perfect" infiltration for the longest of times, but was removed at one point. I'm not sure if the Kommando Nob had that, but I'm 100% sure about the Lictor. So again, I would place my bets that mines have something similiar.

Caeltos wrote:It's important to remember that there used to be two different kinds of infiltration. One that is "perfect" infiltration, and one that is the "Standard" one, the "perfect" one would not even be by colliding into entities. Presumably, mines have "perfect" infiltration properties.

The Lictor Alpha for an ex. used to have "perfect" infiltration for the longest of times, but was removed at one point. I'm not sure if the Kommando Nob had that, but I'm 100% sure about the Lictor. So again, I would place my bets that mines have something similiar.

So "perfect" infiltration needed a detector in order to be seen at all, right?

Yes, only scout sergeant, shoota nob, and the "detector" units etc with a range that exceeded range 15 were able to effectively spot the Lictor Alpha.

Helios wrote:

Caeltos wrote:It's important to remember that there used to be two different kinds of infiltration. One that is "perfect" infiltration, and one that is the "Standard" one, the "perfect" one would not even be by colliding into entities. Presumably, mines have "perfect" infiltration properties.

The Lictor Alpha for an ex. used to have "perfect" infiltration for the longest of times, but was removed at one point. I'm not sure if the Kommando Nob had that, but I'm 100% sure about the Lictor. So again, I would place my bets that mines have something similiar.

So "perfect" infiltration needed a detector in order to be seen at all, right?

Yes.

The good old trollcloak.

Does any unit still have this "perfect infiltration"?

Adeptus Noobus wrote:Does any unit still have this "perfect infiltration"?

Units, no. Things like mines & IEDs, I'm not sure.

it would stand to reason that mines would detonate before one could tell if they have perfect infiltration but i think ieds do have it other wise ig players would need to detonate them as soon as the first enemy model touches the bombs , rather than letting a full squad walk over the explosives and then detonating.

Mines have perfect infiltration. Keen sight only detects standard infiltration.

Mines no longer work on sentinels, and sentinels are now true detectors, not just keen sight detectors.

I do not approve of mines not working on sentinels anymore.

I would much rather have the sentinel get an increased keen sight detection (if it must be done...) rather than making it a true detector.

Little bit of a non-sequitor, but what would people think about inquisitorial operatives gaining detection? Or better keen sight or something? Right now the only detection GK will have access to is through the garbage ITS sergeant, which really you don't ever want to get.

Crewfinity wrote:Little bit of a non-sequitor, but what would people think about inquisitorial operatives gaining detection? Or better keen sight or something? Right now the only detection GK will have access to is through the garbage ITS sergeant, which really you don't ever want to get.

It deserves its own thread does this topic. But I think that would be a terrible solution to the problem akin somewhat to a government forcing firms to have 40% of its managerial positions taken by women - you are covering up the real problem at hand artificially - why are women not applying/getting these positions?

Why is it permissible for an ork player to buy a shoota nob to get detection or for a space marine to buy a scout sarge, etc, but not for a GK player to buy an IST sarge for detection? Clearly the IST sarge must be UP if that is the case and I think he is. A price reduction to 20 power would be nice.

Torpid wrote:Why is it permissible for an ork player to buy a shoota nob to get detection or for a space marine to buy a scout sarge, etc, but not for a GK player to buy an IST sarge for detection? Clearly the IST sarge must be UP if that is the case and I think he is. A price reduction to 20 power would be nice.

This. IST Sarge is bad and GK detection is bad. I agree with Crew that Operatives with detection would be an interesting direction, assuming detection was removed from the Sarge in favor of a buff that made him useful. Like torpid and Sub_zero, I don't want another 2 detector faction! I have a little fear that the Operatives are already going to be functionally mandatory for all GK matchups, thus making GK always have detection (like nids), but we'll see. Double Operatives seems like a poor choice from what I've seen of them, so maybe it'd be fine. Crazy idea: give Operatives Sarge upgrade in T1 that gives stealth detection?

As for the IST Sage, he's real bad. Here's why:
- Priced like a scout / nob / tic leader.
- Provides the dps of a single ist model.
- Grenade range and detection range are small, requiring the unit to get a bit close to combat to use, but...
- Squad still bleeds like a stuck pig when even gently focused, and GK lacks T2 reinforcement of orks/dps threat of shootas, or the stealth + regen + movespeed of scouts or the worship toggle of tics to help mitigate this.
- Grenade deals insignificant damage, and is really just a knockdown that can miss and hurt your own guys. Imagine Scout Shotgun ability, but it also hit your guys, didn't suppress and could miss. Ouch.

There are a lot of ways this could be improved, price reduction included. Here are some ideas:
- Make grenade a stun nade instead, ~4s duration/no damage, keep the fuse at 0 and no spiking.
- Replace grenade with mines! Blast from the past!
- Remove grenade ability, have Sarge increase the squads health or dps or movespeed.
- Make Sarge a T2 upgrade that increases the squads health and dps, give Operatives stealth detection.
- Add a new T2 upgrade to IST that increase their health and/or let them renforce more efficiently.

Oh the good old days. Just to confirm, Caeltos, Knob never had "perfect" infiltration, out of the commanders only the LA had that. But ofc, this was back in the days when if you were sad enough to have your detector being a squad leader, and pre-Retri when die-last squad leaders wasn't a thing yet... on man, LA matchups were so incredibly unfun. Oh, shoota Nob? FLESH HOOK into nid blob, nomnomnom. Oh look, a wild Cyrus! Nomnomnomnom. DOW2 Multiplayer: the only time when having no helmets is actually a disadvantage for SM c.f. Campaign

Yeah, I don't think people understand how much fucking worse it was back then, compared to how it is now.

Caeltos wrote:Yeah, I don't think people understand how much fucking worse it was back then, compared to how it is now.

Can I quote for truth? Yes I can.

QFT. (Report Codex for Spam.)

That is all.

EDIT:

BTW for anyone who doubts even for a second how incredibly sad this state of affairs is, consider for a moment that losing a detector squad leader is 25 power. That is like having to reinforce an entire squad of ASMs (ASM being 50 power to build, which is a situation that would only happen with sergeant in T2)... in T1. Not to mention that you would practically require that scout serg (or shoota nob) replacement if you were to survive T1 nid pressure, meanwhile they're going T2 and aiming for crushing dominance.

I love Retail (I don't.)