Sternguard and a new ability

[Sub_Zero]

I feel like I've brought this up before but it is buried somewhere and I could not find it. So I decided to create this topic and discuss it again.

I would love to see a different version of their current "...ATSKNF" ability. There are three reasons for that. The first reason is that they do not have a melee specialist who would perform melee attacks while the ability is active, it is probably the strongest side of the ability to be able to defeat melee units just because of special attacks of sergeants leading squads, sternguard veterans cannot do this properly. The second reason is their inability to deliver damage in bursts (plasma gun, missile launcher), because of that the 40% speed penalty really makes them bad at attacking other ranged units/vehicles who seeing that the ability is active will try to avoid confrontation and move backwards, tactical marines even though being as slow as sternguard veterans can at least hope for delivering enough damage because the pattern of how plasma guns/missile launchers work allows them to. And the third reason is my desire to just differentiate tactical marines and sternguard veterans, to give the latter a role no other space marines' unit fulfills. That is about the reasons, now to my idea.

I would describe "...ATSKNF" as a defensive ability, it makes them tougher, allows to ignore suppression and helps greatly to fight off melee units. What I want to give sternguard veterans would be an offensive ability that would allow them to drastically increase their relatively low (they are a T2 unit, right?) damage output by 30% as well as granting each round type its own special benefit while the ability is active.
Let's start with dragonfire rounds. It is anti-cover and anti-garrison rounds. We all know that it is better for any unit to remain behind cover than be in the open against sternguard veterans. All of it has to do with the fact that anti-LI rounds and anti-HI rounds would do MORE damage than dragonfire rounds to targets in cover even though dragonfire rounds ignore cover modifiers. So my proposal is to make dragonfire rounds suppress targets who are behind cover to make the rounds actually really good against targets in cover. I imply that this unique trait only comes into play when their offensive ability is active. And my another proposal for these rounds is to make them stun any garrisoned targets. This way sternguard veterans can counter setup teams in buildings and just prevent anything from firing back that is situated in any structure. This is how I see these rounds can be enhanced while the offensive ability is active.
Now to hellfire rounds. As well all know the poison affects LI and commanders. There are a lot of melee commanders and melee LI units space marines may have problems with. And this is how I feel the rounds can be enhanced. While the ability is active hellfire rounds snare LI and commanders movement by 50% and the snare doesn't stay active on retreating units. So this unique trait will help to deal with aggressive units and commanders.
Let's talk about AV and anti-SHI rounds. It is vengeance rounds. The offensive ability could enhance them by increasing the range from 38 to 48 and adding a slight movement snare to any vehicle or SHI unit (15%) as well as giving 75% accuracy on the move. The logic behind here is that they become more potent vehicle hunters and chances of taking out terminators/tyrant guards are increased drastically.
And the last round type I will talk about is kraken rounds. These rounds serve anti-HI and anti-commander purpose. The enhancement I see here will be similar to how an overcharged plasma gun works and "Slaughter" effect looks. Basically sternguard veterans' bolters start spitting out bolts way faster. For 15 seconds (this is the duration of the ability I have in mind) they don't need to reload their guns and deliver damage pretty much like a techmarine with an overcharged plasma gun. This plus the passive increase in damage will make them commander and HI shredders for 15 seconds, while the ability is active. According to to that this will be the most offensive oriented round type.

So it raps it up. Now I want to explain one detail that I deem very important about this change. Tactical marines who decided to become sternguard veterans lose everything and start from the level 1. This puts you at a disadvantage. The offensive ability ought to fix it. With the increased killing potential sternguard veterans will start leveling faster.

And now I will list all the numbers and details for those who didn't want to read the whole thing:
The name of the ability -"The enemies of the Emperor shall know fear"
The requirements - 1200 damage taken, 80 seconds cooldown
The duration - 15 seconds
Drawbacks - cannot retreat while the ability is active
Benefits:
-30% ranged damage increase
-Dragonfire rounds suppress targets behind cover and stun targets inside structures
-Hellfire rounds snare commanders and LI units movement by 50%, the snare doesn't stay active on retreating units
-Vengeance rounds have increased 48 range, slightly snare SHI units and vehicles by 15% and have 75% accuracy on the move
-Kraken rounds have no need to be reloaded
Visual effects - blue rings are replaced with pulsing yellow lights (when a FC with a banner is down)

And at last I want to add that it cannot be imbalanced because it is based on a very balanced mechanic that has proven to be so. Unlike other abilities you can't always activate it, you have to make good decisions when to use it. Sternguard veterans can still be suppressed, they lose all their defensive benefits, they are vulnerable to melee and knockback, the duration is 5 seconds less, the ability can be easily designated and counter-measures attempted. All in all I feel like this change will make sternguard a way more desirable unit. Space marines lack something that can unleash damage. Sternguard veterans may become this very unit.

1st EDIT:
-Changed ranged damage buff from 40% to 30%
-Removed snaring on retreating units
-Increased snaring percentage from 40% to 50%
-Added a drawback - inability to retreat

[Tex]

I already feel like sternguards are a desirable unit.

They do their job quite well for SM, and that is to slaughter LI and commanders. Every single SM commander has the ability to increase sterns damage output, and as you already know, SM as a race, have the inspiration mechanic which when used intelligently, gives a very quick damage boost to a large portion of your army.

I think a 40% self damage boost ability sounds super strong and doesn't really go along the SM design.

Also, each round type already does its job well, save for the cover situation with dragonfire. Outside of fighting against heavy armor units in cover though, sterns are the ultimate generalist, fully suited for SM design. The bonuses to the round types seem unnecessary, although I do sort of like the idea of not having to reload kraken bolts .

[Cheekie Monkie]

My only issue with sterns is that unlike special weapons tacs, their damage output drops off considerably with each model loss. This issue is exarcebated due to the fact that they lose levels, thus effectively downgrading their health.

I feel like they should be slightly more durable, perhaps having the base health of a level 2 tac squad and maybe have a +5 melee skill to counteract the loss of the melee weapon and to better aid kiting against upgraded melee squads.

Also agreed that dragonfire is also pretty meh. Having no bonus damage to units in cover, like flamers, means that your opponent isn't being flushed out of cover.

[lolzarz]

It sounds OK, but do I get to keep And They Shall Know No Fear?

[xXKageAsashinXx]

For the dragonfire rounds, personally I think that they should suppress initially, for both in garrison and in cover, and if suppression is sustained, then stun the unit. It'll be making a pseudo-pinning fire.

[Kithrixx]

I would replace ATSKNF with Combi-weapons that are active for the duration of ability. Two Plasma Guns, a Flamer, and a Melta - something along those lines.

[egewithin]

First of all, there should be at least 1 draw back. Eg: you loose speed while ATSKNF is active. We can find one out.

Here are the firing buffs ;

-Liked the Dragonfire idea
-Hellfire Rounds : Retreating units shouldn't be effected. It may cause massive retreat kills by melee chasing. I can even escape from Phase Shift with retreat, who do you think these ammo?
-Liked the accuarcy on move but snare sounds a bit too much even it is 15%.
-I agree with Kraken.

And IMO and if I am remembering wrong what you wrote at the top but I will ignore some of them cause they are the previous page so I don't really want to check again. I am writing these according to my mind; both abilitys should be activeted by the damage taken just like ATSKNF. And if one of them used, they both should go cooldown. If any of these are already written at the top, ignore what I said.

[Sub_Zero]

I think you misunderstood me. My idea is to differentiate standard tactical marines and sternguard veterans. The ability tactical marines and sternguard veterans currently have GREATLY enhances their defensive potential. For the former this ability is really suitable, for the latter this ability is less suitable due to the aforementioned factors. And so the idea is to give to sternguard veterans an equal in terms of overall strength ability that would enhance their offensive potential instead of giving defensive benefits. Just let's compare the ability you all know and the ability that would replace it, the one I was talking about in my initial post.

"And they shall know no fear" gives 40% damage resistance to ALL sorts of incoming damage. The ability I proposed increases the ranged damage exclusively by 40%. Sounds like a fair trade, doesn't it?
But that is not the only benefits. "ATSKNF" also makes immune to suppression and allows to perform special attacks or just knockback with 50% chance in melee. So tactical marines are no longer beaten by melee squads and countered by suppression. The ability I proposed doesn't include these benefits, instead it enhances each round type's effectiveness. The goal is to make them more oriented in offense than in defense. If you read what I proposed for each round then you will probably agree that it again sounds like a fair trade.

So in the end we get a more vulnerable unit that is useless in melee, loses health normally and can be controlled by suppression. But to compensate that it becomes a good damage dealer.

"ATSKNF" is an engagement-winning ability possessed by a T1 unit. The proposed ability by me is potentially an engagement-winning ability possessed by a T2 unit. A T1 unit is by default less strong than a T2 unit. Then we consider that you can only get 1 squad of sternguard veterans and then we consider that the mechanic that is used for charging their ability is also what makes it balanced and justifies their offensive oriented enhancements. Do bear in mind that "ATSKNF" stays active for 20 seconds, whereas the ability I proposed stays active for only 15 seconds. I tried to evenly balance these aspects.

Now I would love to answer to certain posts.

They do their job quite well for SM, and that is to slaughter LI and commanders. Every single SM commander has the ability to increase sterns damage output, and as you already know, SM as a race, have the inspiration mechanic which when used intelligently, gives a very quick damage boost to a large portion of your army.

I do not question their usability. And what they do now in terms of damage I would hardly ever call slaughter. They have their hellfire rounds nerfed and the damage they do to commanders isn't that different from the damage of a squad of tactical marines with a sergeant + plasma gun upgrade (the weapon that is getting buffed in the update). I will bother to bring numbers here to prove my point. 16 DPS X 4 = 64 DPs > 13 DPS X 2 + 14 DPS + 20 DPS = 60 DPS - according to these results 4 DPS is this mere difference. Nothing to call slaughter.
Every commander can increase damage output, that is true. It is also true that every commander can increase standing power. Apo - heal; FC - shield; TM - constant health regeneration provided by beacons. That is to say that 40% damage resistance of "ATSKNF" is OP too because of every hero that can enhance standing power. It is also true that there are other damage buffs coming from different units but it is hard to benefit from them. Melee dreadnoughts tend to be countered hard and not allowed to smack units, librarians are just too frail to stick in a melee fight prolongedly. Only terminators provide realiable buffing because they can stand alongside tactical marines and kill stuff. Other sources are presented by melee units and tactical marines if engaged in melee cannot fire their ranged weapons or too far away from these sources to benefit from them. But this point I get and 40% ranged damage buff can be decreased to 30% ranged damage buff. The numbers can always be discussed and specified later, the only thing is that matters now is the acceptance of this ability.

I think a 40% self damage boost ability sounds super strong and doesn't really go along the SM design.

Also, each round type already does its job well, save for the cover situation with dragonfire. Outside of fighting against heavy armor units in cover though, sterns are the ultimate generalist, fully suited for SM design. The bonuses to the round types seem unnecessary, although I do sort of like the idea of not having to reload kraken bolts .

I just want to point your attention at that part of my post where I compared the abilities. I tried to make the new ability as strong as the ability "ATSKNF" but with a different orientation. Your point about other sources of damage boosts was noted and we can work around the precise number.

It sounds OK, but do I get to keep And They Shall Know No Fear?

No. That is the whole point of the change. Tactical marines have a defensive ability. Sternguard veterans have an offensive ability. Both of them are based on a balanced mechanic and both of them seem even in terms of strength.

First of all, there should be at least 1 draw back. Eg: you loose speed while ATSKNF is active. We can find one out.

Perhaps. Although I have already cut the duration of the ability to 15 seconds, it probably could use some drawback. But that should not be a speed penalty. I think a good decision is to make it this way - when the offensive ability is active the squad cannot retreat. This way we make this ability very risky to use. How you like it to call? High risk - high reward. They become very potent in offense at the risk of being killed easily.

-Hellfire Rounds : Retreating units shouldn't be effected. It may cause massive retreat kills by melee chasing. I can even escape from Phase Shift with retreat, who do you think these ammo?

This is a great point. I didn't consider this possibility.

I am writing these according to my mind; both abilitys should be activeted by the damage taken just like ATSKNF. And if one of them used, they both should go cooldown. If any of these are already written at the top, ignore what I said.

The new ability completely replaces the old one and is charged by 1200 damage too.

[xXKageAsashinXx]

No mention about my pinning fire idea... oh well. I like what you've brought up here in making the sterns more offensively oriented compared to tacs. At the moment sterns looks like a redundancy of tacs to me. They can use ammo types that affect almost every single armor in the game differently, same as with tacs and their special weapons, their base stats are identical only you have to buy the sergeant with normal tacs, pure dph is exactly the same for their bolters minus hellfire rounds, and the ability the sergeants grant is exactly the same. Sure they're an upgraded version of tacs, but not even kasrkin were this copy/pasted and they are the same as stormtroopers, only a cadian variant. Changing the focus of sterns through their ability would really differentiate between them and tacs in a good way if you ask me.

[lolzarz]

I thought it would be a good idea if Sternguard Veterans had access to both, because they're famed for versatility and their ability to perform in all situations against different targets. It would make sense for them to have both offensive buffs and defensive buffs. In the case that there is only 1 buff per squad, it seems to me it would be a better idea to give the Sternguard the defensive ability and the standard tactical space marines the offensive ability.

Sternguard suffer very frequently from damage drop-off because all of their models deal equal damage, causing them to lose damage linearly as they lose models, unlike tactical space marines. Therefore, I think it would make sense to give the sternguard the defensive ability, so that they can stave off model loss and keep their sustained firepower. They also happen to have greater need of the melee knockback, if only because the Powers That Be (read: Caeltos and crew) decided that the sternguard sergeant trades in his chainsword. Having less levels doesn't help Sternguard survive either.

In contrast, the tactical space marine missile launcher cannot be used on the move. Needless to say, it limits their chasing potential against enemy vehicles, unlike vengeance round Sternguard veterans, who can. Because of the extremely burst-damage nature of the plasma gun, chasing enemy heavy infantry also becomes a hit-and-miss (quite literally) affair. This is less significant in the case of sternguard because they use boltguns, which deal sustained damage and can fire on the move, so a miss is a smaller drop in their firepower.

Their "offensive version" of And They Shall Know No Fear, I think, should give them full fire-on-the-move accuracy (yes, missile launcher too!) and, say, 20% damage buff, but then they cannot retreat during the effect and take, say, 10-15% more damage during the effect because they're too concerned about the attack to avoid incoming fire, and 4 red supermen with guns blazing will obviously draw fire. It would turn them into very potent offensive units, as they have additional damage even on the move, which makes them very dangerous against heavy units in general. Terminators (whom the Space Marines are known to have trouble against) and vehicles are particularly at risk because they cannot retreat and therefore have no way to avoid taking full damage.

What do you think?

[egewithin]

I thought it would be a good idea if Sternguard Veterans had access to both, because they're famed for versatility and their ability to perform in all situations against different targets.?

That part makes sense for me. And I don't really want to loose their defensive ability just for a damage buff. If I am going to loose ATSKNF for a damage buff, save it. I rather to being able to use both. But ofc, not in the same time.

[Atlas]

You SM players and your need to get buffs in everything.

Why can't you just see the light and realize that SM is OP at everything and Sternguard need buffs just as much as Zoanthropes need buffs?

[lolzarz]

You SM players and your need to get buffs in everything.

Why can't you just see the light and realize that SM is OP at everything and Sternguard need buffs just as much as Zoanthropes need buffs?

It's not really a buff per se, but more an adjustment. Sternguard lose a very potent defensive ability in this and it's not like they stomped everything in ranged combat. That (dis)honor belongs to those damned Mark of Tzeentch Chaos Space Marines.

[Sub_Zero]

No mention about my pinning fire idea...

Either I understood your idea wrong or I didn't mention it for this reason - I propose changes to rounds to make them better only when the ability will be charged and activated, you proposed it to make them better indefinitely (no one will ever buff them this way).

Sure they're an upgraded version of tacs

Sadly enough they are not an upgrade. An upgrade is something that makes an existing unit better in a way. This "upgrade" completely erases a unit and creates a new one. It is a very bad design-wise mechanic actually. I don't like the way we get access to sternguard veterans.

Changing the focus of sterns through their ability would really differentiate between them and tacs in a good way if you ask me.

This is precisely my intention.

I thought it would be a good idea if Sternguard Veterans had access to both, because they're famed for versatility and their ability to perform in all situations against different targets.

Balance-wise it would make them REALLY strong. Being able to choose defense or offense would make them too badass, so badass that nobody would ever accept this concept.

it seems to me it would be a better idea to give the Sternguard the defensive ability and the standard tactical space marines the offensive ability

In my first post I specified the reasons why I think the defensive ability doesn't fit sternguard veterans that well . I will list them again:
1) No melee specialist in the squad = no massive knockbacks from him when he performs a special attack = worse performance in melee.
2) I agree with you about plasma guns but I would say that having a missile launcher is better than to have consistent yet low damaging bolts. Why? Let's say there is a tank against your tacs/sternguard veterans. They can fire off a missile and then move towards the target, then repeat, then repeat until the tank decides to drive away completely/is destroyed/your squad is forced off. The range of the missile launcher is respectable (44 vs 38 of the bolts), you don't even need that fire on the move, you just know the delay between shots and move towards the target, stop at the time when a new missile is ready and shoot, then repeat. Sternguard veterans will have to waste a lot of bolts on the move, they will misfire a lot. In the end they will deal way less damage than tacs with a missile launcher. Due to the range the speed penalty doesn't seem that bad on tacs, however it does seem bad on sternguard veterans because they need to remain stationary for a prolonged time to deal the damage of a missile and will inevitably waste their bolts on the move trying to catch up with the target.

Sternguard suffer very frequently from damage drop-off because all of their models deal equal damage, causing them to lose damage linearly as they lose models, unlike tactical space marines. Therefore, I think it would make sense to give the sternguard the defensive ability, so that they can stave off model loss and keep their sustained firepower

That does sound logical. But yet again I want to say that I would love to allow sternguard veterans to become a badass ranged unit at least for a short period of time. They are T2, come on. Given this factor, given their hard accessibility and the limitation to 1 per player, they need to bite a little bit harder than they do now. The ability will allow to do them just that. Tactical marines will remain trusty tough battle brothers you can rely on when holding your ground. Sternguard veterans will become the edge of your sword.

What do you think?

Just to give a conclusion about your idea to swap abilities between tacs and veterans. Tactical marines have been the way they are for a really long time, they have proven to be effective in this state. They are your main ranged source of damage and you can get a lot of them. If we change them this way it will be a very radical change. However if we change a niche unit (that is limited to 1 in your army) that may prove as a very good solution to promote their usability in a larger array of situations. I do think space marines are in need of a good ranged unit. We can't go wrong if we make sternguard veterans the way I proposed. After all they are a T2 unit limited to 1 in your army and that has to make them better than tacs by default. I think that the offensive ability offers more potential than the defensive one, that is why I think it is a better ability and hence sternguard veterans will become a better unit in this very way (offense). But yet again this ability is justified because of the aforementioned factors.

Why can't you just see the light and realize that SM is OP at everything

You must not say such things about a faction that completely lacks a competent melee unit (every other faction does have at least one competent melee unit). A competent melee unit is all the world in this game. Moreover space marines don't have reliable answers to SHI. These factors are sufficient to not call them OP at everything.

Sternguard lose a very potent defensive ability in this and it's not like they stomped everything in ranged combat. That (dis)honor belongs to those damned Mark of Tzeentch Chaos Space Marines.

If sternguard veterans are to receive this offensive ability then at least 1 time per 3 engagements they will be able to force these T1 whores to flee in fear. Generalist vs specialist and blah-blah-blah indeed but I have always felt like tzeentch marines' damage potential wasn't justified at all. Though let's keep this topic aside for I already foresee how loyal slaves of the Dark Gods show up here and prove all me wrong.

[lolzarz]

Yeah, I realized they should be better than tactical space marines, hence my initial question whether they should keep both. I'm all for Sternguard receiving additional firepower because it's not like they're blasting everyone off the field in ranged combat; like I said, there're squads that actually do that and for marginally higher costs. But I really don't think letting them keep both is that bad; 1200 damage isn't exactly insignificant. Or we could tie both abilities onto the same cooldown/damage requirement so you can only use 1 per 1200 damage and not, say, have them build up simultaneously then use both at once to give the Space Marine player (AKA us) an invulnerable juggernaut, as much as I want one.

[xXKageAsashinXx]

No mention about my pinning fire idea...

Either I understood your idea wrong or I didn't mention it for this reason - I propose changes to rounds to make them better only when the ability will be charged and activated, you proposed it to make them better indefinitely (no one will ever buff them this way).

You understood wrong. You said that when the ability was active, the round type in question would get suppression for units in cover and stun for units in garrison. I proposed that instead of the two being separate, just combine them and make a pseudo-pinning fire effect.

Sure they're an upgraded version of tacs

Sadly enough they are not an upgrade. An upgrade is something that makes an existing unit better in a way. This "upgrade" completely erases a unit and creates a new one. It is a very bad design-wise mechanic actually. I don't like the way we get access to sternguard veterans.

For argument's sake I worded it that way. I know that in-game they're technically new units instead of a simple upgrade. Little bit off topic, but would it be possible to rewrite the upgrade as just that, an upgrade rather than a bait'n switch? Upgrades can either add or take away abilities as well as change the weapon, armor, and aesthetics of the unit, so it should theoretically be alright.

[Sub_Zero]

You understood wrong. You said that when the ability was active, the round type in question would get suppression for units in cover and stun for units in garrison. I proposed that instead of the two being separate, just combine them and make a pseudo-pinning fire effect.

Now I see. But the thing is that stunned units cannot do anything. If some units behind cover get stunned they will remain stunned for as long as sternguard veterans fire upon them with the proper round type. If they get suppressed only then they can at least counter it by leaving the cover. I am not sure but I think that garrisoned units cannot be suppressed, only stunned. And so when they are stunned they can leave the garrison (or can't they?) they occupy and thereby counter it too. So this way the rounds are strong but not super-strong. They effectively make any unit behind cover/inside a structure leave it. Not to mention the damage buff the rounds get. This is what I had in my when I proposed.

But I really don't think letting them keep both is that bad

As it stands now my idea doesn't get that much attention, let alone positive feedback. If nobody wants them to be better (because of the offensive ability) then I am pretty sure that nobody would want them to retain the current ability and get this new one at one time. Though I understand the concept you tell about.

For argument's sake I worded it that way. I know that in-game they're technically new units instead of a simple upgrade. Little bit off topic, but would it be possible to rewrite the upgrade as just that, an upgrade rather than a bait'n switch? Upgrades can either add or take away abilities as well as change the weapon, armor, and aesthetics of the unit, so it should theoretically be alright.

Actually I had no intention to nitpick. I used this opportunity to yet again bring up the problem with this very unit. And exactly its irrational accessibility.

And on a side note I would love to add that if we are to make them more oriented in offense we could take away the faster capturing trait easily.

I would love if everybody gave his opinion on what I proposed. What do you not like about it? Do you deem the proposed ability to be overpowered? Then specify in what way it is according to your opinion. Do you not want to differentiate these units? Or do you really happen to love the current ability that much that you don't want it to be removed? I seriously think that we could make the pair of tacs and sterns as different as asms and vanguards are now. But not the way asms and vanguards are differentiated now by straight statistical differences. But the way that is by default more balanced and would fit more for differentiating this pair of ranged units. After all asms are a T1 unit and vanguards are a T3 unit. Whereas tacs are a T1 unit and sterns are a T2 unit. There is no such a great gap between the latter.

[xXKageAsashinXx]

Now I see. But the thing is that stunned units cannot do anything. If some units behind cover get stunned they will remain stunned for as long as sternguard veterans fire upon them with the proper round type. If they get suppressed only then they can at least counter it by leaving the cover. I am not sure but I think that garrisoned units cannot be suppressed, only stunned. And so when they are stunned they can leave the garrison (or can't they?) they occupy and thereby counter it too. So this way the rounds are strong but not super-strong. They effectively make any unit behind cover/inside a structure leave it. Not to mention the damage buff the rounds get. This is what I had in my when I proposed.

In CoH2 units can't do anything when they're pinned either, so from a gameplay perspective there isn't any problems with it. Get suppressed for long enough and eventually the unit will be forced to just hunker down until they retreat or get rescued. That brings up the concept that if suppressed for long enough, then normal suppression units should be able to stun what they suppress, especially with how players always do their best to never be suppressed for more than a second unless it can't be helped or the reward is worth the risk. However, I feel that introducing something like that would get a bad response, so I'm just limiting it to this ability for now. While T2 will still have players use cover if presented, once they see the ability marker up or their unit get suppressed, they shouldn't just sit there and try to continue the shootout without having a way to deal with the sterns, so if the stun comes after a significant delay, then it wouldn't be OP more-so than just a punishment for negligence or taking a risk too great.

As it stands now my idea doesn't get that much attention, let alone positive feedback. If nobody wants them to be better (because of the offensive ability) then I am pretty sure that nobody would want them to retain the current ability and get this new one at one time. Though I understand the concept you tell about.

Yeah, I see the point being made. It just doesn't sit right with me to replace ATSKNF or get rid of it at all for upgrading to sterns like TaL from ASM to vans though (making an assumption that this actually goes through in this particular instance of course).

And on a side note I would love to add that if we are to make them more oriented in offense we could take away the faster capturing trait easily.

I see it for balancing, don't get me wrong, but it makes no sense otherwise. Should the upgrade get patched and turn into a true upgrade, losing that kinda puts a question mark above my head since then you've removed a third of what a tac is, or what defines it game-wise anyways. Heavy T1 infantry, game scaling and adaptability, and superior capper. As of now should this get put in though, that reasoning is irrelevant since technically sterns are a different units.

[Sub_Zero]

Alright, my forgotten and undervalued battle brothers, there will be a day when you start shining brightly with the power of the Emperor's everlasting light.

"Nothing is set in stone" - Caeltos' favourite phrase.

Let's hope that one day this unit will be cardinally rethought.

And for now anyone else who wants to give feedback about the current proposal?

[Atlas]

Why not have them suppress if they sustain fire at a target long enough

On a more serious note, is there really any need to rework this unit? Most of the issues I've heard about Sternguard have to do with the internal balance of the different rounds they possess. I think it's fine if they have a default, go-to round like Kraken Rounds and let the other rounds be used in the situations they are useful in.

I'm not entirely sure why people are hard-capped to just one squad of Sternguard, but otherwise I think the unit is just fine.

[Adeptus Noobus]

Why not have them suppress if they sustain fire at a target long enough

On a more serious note, is there really any need to rework this unit? Most of the issues I've heard about Sternguard have to do with the internal balance of the different rounds they possess. I think it's fine if they have a default, go-to round like Kraken Rounds and let the other rounds be used in the situations they are useful in.

I'm not entirely sure why people are hard-capped to just one squad of Sternguard, but otherwise I think the unit is just fine.

I can only second what Atlas said here. I would also question why they are limited to one. The loss of levels, loss of the Seargant with some decent melee skill, loss of access to specialized weaponry and the high upgrade cost should more than balance having multiple Sternguard squads. Double Hellfire rounds may seem very painful to e.g. Eldar but so does double Reapers to SM.

[saltychipmunk]

because sternguard are supposed to be ultra elite dudes? , I would hazard to guess the imperium doesn't have a large reserve of them just sitting around.

[Atlas]

because sternguard are supposed to be ultra elite dudes? , I would hazard to guess the imperium doesn't have a large reserve of them just sitting around.

And yet it's entirely possible to field multiple terminator squads? I don't really care about the lore of it, only the balance.

[egewithin]

Hold on a second! What if Hellfire causes splash damage? Because you use it on IG, nids and Orks? A weapon does damage over time and splash damage like autocannon... That is a real good ability.

[Adeptus Noobus]

Hold on a second! What if Hellfire causes splash damage? Because you use it on IG, nids and Orks? A weapon does damage over time and splash damage like autocannon... That is a real good ability.

Hellfire rounds already hurt infantry units a lot. They do not need splash as they already have damage over time.

[egewithin]

Hellfire rounds already hurt infantry units a lot. They do not need splash as they already have damage over time.

It was for the offensive ability part, sorry about that.

[Sub_Zero]

On a more serious note, is there really any need to rework this unit?

If sternguard veterans were just an upgrade to tactical marines (if tactical marines got to keep their experience) then there would be no need. But I perceive them as DIFFERENT units. Who are, by the way, tied to different tiers. And for different units they are boring, way too similar to each other.

The rework of the "ATSKNF" ability would refresh them, open new perspectives and would greatly help them to gain experience due to the enhanced offensive capabilities because for a T2 unit they clearly lack firepower/standing power. Honestly I would love to see both them and vanguard veterans hard-capped at 1. And to justify that we make them just better than we make a unit that can be produced endlessly.

Vanguard veterans came a long way to become a great unit (I really love them). First they received more health, then that health regeneration, then 50 energy for assault jumps. All these changes made them an excellent offensive unit. Sternguard veterans only underwent different rounds tweaks. Before that some rounds just didn't work properly, they were a broken unit. And those tweaks were like the only real change to them since their creation.

Since they are so unique, you can only get 1 of them, why would not make them better at damage dealing? And that is exactly what my proposal would accomplish and I truly believe it would be balanced. Why? Reread it again. It is tied with a very high risk of being wiped entirely. And the ability to cause more damage can only be acquired by blood and toil and hence nothing as abusive as say "Slaughter" (more in check now though).

I don't see why nobody would be willing to test more potent sternguard veterans who sacrifice their ability to withstand damage, suppression and melee. It is like taking away some weight from one hand and giving it to the other hand, now it looks different but the main weight of the human remains the same. This is what I hope to achieve.