Dawn of War Codex

I'm probably going to staple this down here and will hopefully (provided I don't get lazy on this) post my problems and predicaments concerning improving my gameplay because, and to be quite honest, I've got about almost 200 hours now, but I'm still pretty god damn bad and stupid when it comes to it. I'll try and remember to start including clips/replays of said stupidity so that you guys can help me with my game play. but to start, I'll just start comment on a few things that have been consistently beating me. So without further adieu ...

Melee Rush (i.e Chaos) Catching my Guardsmen in Melee:

One of my biggest issues is that I can't, for the life of me, keep my squads distanced enough. The worst example is when I'm up against the CL, who usually runs in a little ahead of the rest of his group (at least 1 tic squad) in the first few minutes of the game. I try to kite the bastard after whittling away a bit of his health while avoiding his Kill the Weak, but in doing so, the wild kiting begins. One squad starts to run away from the CL while, in the process of trying to get him off me, the other squad of Tics immediately follows up and ties my 2nd squad in melee. The obvious answer to this is that I should use my sentinel stomp and my commander to peel them off, but especially when it comes to acquiring the 15 power, if the fights too early this is almost not doable, at least not until I fend off the rush of heretics. I feel as if the first few spent resources are EXTREMELY crucial for IG (so much so, that I feel I should forgo buying say, a node to start generating more power, just to get that stomp out asap).

It honestly feels like I'm not really able to fend off this attack. So much so that I feel the only times I ever win this initial fight is by sheer luck and the opponent making a slip up - which is hardly ever the case. The above scenario also doesnt consider the fact that there are usually another squad of tics and/or CSM helping out with dishing out the dps.

Middle Lane on a 3v3 Map:

Another issue, and I blame myself almost fully for this, is that I feel like every time I leave a lane to help out another lane, the lane I just left gets swamped and overrun, therefore disregarding anything I've done to help). I don't know if it's just my positioning, but take Argus Desert Gate as an example.

I'll be helping out top because there's a 1v2 going on so I'll come in to repel the push. In the same moment, the bottom lane will get completely swamped and our gens, wiped. Should I be sending my full army up top to help? Or should I send half my forces one way, and try and tilt the scale slightly at bot?

I've honestly no idea how to handle it. I've lost so many games today and every time, its been because I'm never there at the right time. How am I to adjust for jumping in and helping when it matters most?I just never seem to be able to get my timing right and I usually come in just as my ally calls the horn and retreats or when the fields already empty.

Rushing in a Melee Commander at the Right Time:

I can't, for the life of me, get this right. It feel like every time I run in, my commander gets focused so hard, he's immediately retreating at 10% hp and is effectively out of the fight before it's even started to heat up. And this is a huge loss right off the bat, especially if I'm focusing a ranged blob army.

Is it really just a waiting game? There are times where it's a complete stand off and both myself and the enemy are hesitant to move our blobs forward to attack the other. And in most cases, when they do come forward, they seem to hurt my guard more so than I can hurt them.

So the question is, what am I supposed to do with my commander to really make full use of him? If he's getting focused hard, and there's no good position to push my men forward, should I just stand ground until an opportunity to presents itself and just play the waiting until?

Ok, so in response to chaos melee it must first be noted that chaos is very effective against IG, probably the best race against them. You forgot to mention khorne marines in t2, those guys are so quick, and their specials hurt guardsmen so much and their pistols tear up chimeras

Now, if your the commissar play defensively with him at first keeping him back, near your guardsmen, you want to focus down heretics first if they are coming out alongside the chaos lord because they do more damage early on, you do want stomp ASAP, but you also want the power sword soon after this is because the special ability on it absolutely shreds heretics and it buffs your guardsmen's DPS so they can shred the chaos lord. Also, if melee is about to reach your guardsmen retreat them and then execute them when they are away, they will stop retreating at a safe distance and unleash double their normal damage on the heretics, killing them extremely quickly.

The inquisitor can do a similar effect against melee charges with her brazier, cast holy pyre in front of your guardsmen meaning any unit that runs up to melee (especially heretics and the like since they have so many models) will take a decent amount of damage, but more importantly will deal 30% less damage. Then you hammer of the witches and focus down the chaos lord.

Lord general well, you just want to help focus stuff down with him, he can also usebuildings to great effect, plus he can support catachans fantastically with med-kits and he counters grenade launcher heretics with grenade launchers of his own.

I would also recommend getting a heavy weapon team to really stall that advance of theirs, if they got havocs, it will make havoc playmuch less effective as they won't be able to push those havocs forward whenever they want. They might get raptors to counter this, but if you stomp the raptors then fire on them with both guardsmen and have a holy brazier/power sword hero nearby the raptors will die very quickly. If your the general I wouldn't recommend a HWT until you get catachans because you won't have enough damage to force off raptors or similar jump units. Also if they get havocs you can counter that with spotters, if they get double grenade launchers you can counter that with catachans (ol reliable really hurts the GL tics, and the knockdown lets you advance), if they get raptors and you can't already counter them with your hero (they might have just too much melee, say 2x tics, CL and raptors) well just throw in catachans too, catachans will destroy raptors in melee and can knock heretics all over. But yeah, the chaos lord is extremely strong early on, and especially in 3v3 where your forced to fight him head on, it will be rather hard to win the first engagement.



Regarding doubling, if you're on the bottom lane you really are risking a lot by going top. That's why the bottom lane is regarded as the "gutter", you're basically just there, left alone to do your job (defend/take power). The only time you should really support top with a full army is if you have just forced off your opponent, but even then it might be better to just push your lane and destroy his power. It depends. Also other races like space marines have units like scouts who don't contribute considerably to engagement unless upgraded, getting a second scout squad and using it solely to cap the middle even though your not on that lane is very very effective, it can force your one of your opponents to split their army which makes it easier for whoever has to fight that guy. IG unfortunately don't really have a unit like that, they kinda need all their units together because their synergy is that high.




The IG commanders are quite unique, the inquisitor is called an offensive hero, but really she's more supportive, she shouldn't ever be leading the line, not unless she has her shield upgrade, but that's seldom worth it. I think IG pressure and pushes in general, in t1 are based around sentinels. Sentinels are the pivot of your pressure, supported by catachan ol reliables or spotter artillery shells. You want your sentinel to tank damage, you want cats/spotters to negate suppression, double repair the sentinel, focus down opposing suppression. You're leaders are there to support you. The inquisitor can HOTW enemy suppession squads (on their key unit, the one with the actual heavy weapon) she can HOTW enemy heroes, immobilise melee with her crossbow, tie up heavy ranged squads, or she can fend off melee with her brazier upgrade, but she is not really meant to tank, the sentinel does that job. The commissar is the same, you want to send in your sentinel first, always with guardsmen support behind it,then after they unleash their ranged fire on your sentinel, ol reliable their suppression team, activate lead by example on your commissar and tie up the suppression team, support your commissar by advancing the sentinel and stomping any melee that try to attack him.

In t2, IG pressure revolves around the use of chimeras or ogryns. Chimeras I find are very effective against races like chaos, space marines, grey knights and eldar because these races will often get suppression teams and the chimera negates that and forces them to get some form of AV, but most forms of AV 2x guardsmen can actually out-repair. Then if you discover they have a lascannon you can deal with that in numerous ways, catachans, spotters, missle launcher sentinel (attacking ground) or a manticore. Your leaders then support the push, they don't initiate it. Ogryns also work if they didn't get suppression or if you're against an enemy who lacks plasma ranged damage, the ogryns are extremely tanky and synergise greatly with bionic eye( commissar), mek-kits/stabilisers (general) silently( inquisitor), they can tank most of the damage for you while also countering melee while you use your other units to again deal with suppression.

In t3 the pivot unit becomes the leman russ and I'm sure you get the idea now. Sometimes you can be in a really bad situation where you just can't push against an enemy with a vehicle without it likely dying, but in such a situation I think that's when a manticore is good choice. Get the servo-skull if your the inquisitor for the sight radius, or stormtroopers otherwise and infiltrate them so you can get sight radius on their army, soften them up by manticore barraging their key units-lascannons, suppression, artillery. Then lead with your pressure unit. The inquisitor and the commissar certainly can tank, but IG have better uses for those heroes and the heroes can't do it as well as other race's heroes can. The commissar can flare suppression and then charge in with lead by example and stubbornness, but he'll die much quickly than a chaos lord under khorne worship would, the inquisitor can infiltrate herself with silently and then charge in with her rosarius on, but again, she would likely serve better behind her pressure unit, supporting it. The general shouldn't ever lead the charge as such, although early on he can certainly be useful just tanking damage tying up melee, but once he starts getting abilities he is far more useful at the backlines buffing his entire army.

First i wanna say torpid is one of better players in the game so take his advice seriously.

On a less technical note i want to say i have played with you and against you and i do not think you are terrible. in fact you have a good attitude and you do implement team work.

I want you to also realize that MANY of the players whom play this game have
hundreds if not thousands of hours of competitive playing compared to you. I myself have over 1k hours but even that pales in comparison of some whom have 2-3 k hours.
If you are reaching a wall where you are playing those types of people im sure it will seem insurmountable but keep it in perspective that they are usually the best players.

Remember you can always search replays of 3v3's and watch other better players. My brother Vroom is super good with IG but even he says Toilalee, for example, mops the floor with him. You can look up replays of 1v1 2v2 or 3v3 using specific IG commanders on youtube.

For example,

check out Indrid channel (dow replays .net ) for good technical breakdowns of what is happening and what the players might be thinking in specific match ups

Maestro cretella is sometimes less technical but perhaps more entertaining to watch. He too should have at least a dozen videos of every match up.

At least you can start there, along with continuing to answer questions.

Three good players of IG that i know by eperience are Toilalee, Texcalibur, VroomVroom

hey there again,

look what i found.

torpid as Inquisitor vs Chaos lord by ACe in a 2v2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBsU0oIip8w

That Torpid Gamer wrote:Ok, so in response to chaos melee it must first be noted that chaos is very effective against IG, probably the best race against them. You forgot to mention khorne marines in t2, those guys are so quick, and their specials hurt guardsmen so much and their pistols tear up chimeras

Now, if your the commissar play defensively with him at first keeping him back, near your guardsmen, you want to focus down heretics first if they are coming out alongside the chaos lord because they do more damage early on, you do want stomp ASAP, but you also want the power sword soon after this is because the special ability on it absolutely shreds heretics and it buffs your guardsmen's DPS so they can shred the chaos lord. Also, if melee is about to reach your guardsmen retreat them and then execute them when they are away, they will stop retreating at a safe distance and unleash double their normal damage on the heretics, killing them extremely quickly.

The inquisitor can do a similar effect against melee charges with her brazier, cast holy pyre in front of your guardsmen meaning any unit that runs up to melee (especially heretics and the like since they have so many models) will take a decent amount of damage, but more importantly will deal 30% less damage. Then you hammer of the witches and focus down the chaos lord.

Lord general well, you just want to help focus stuff down with him, he can also usebuildings to great effect, plus he can support catachans fantastically with med-kits and he counters grenade launcher heretics with grenade launchers of his own.

I would also recommend getting a heavy weapon team to really stall that advance of theirs, if they got havocs, it will make havoc playmuch less effective as they won't be able to push those havocs forward whenever they want. They might get raptors to counter this, but if you stomp the raptors then fire on them with both guardsmen and have a holy brazier/power sword hero nearby the raptors will die very quickly. If your the general I wouldn't recommend a HWT until you get catachans because you won't have enough damage to force off raptors or similar jump units. Also if they get havocs you can counter that with spotters, if they get double grenade launchers you can counter that with catachans (ol reliable really hurts the GL tics, and the knockdown lets you advance), if they get raptors and you can't already counter them with your hero (they might have just too much melee, say 2x tics, CL and raptors) well just throw in catachans too, catachans will destroy raptors in melee and can knock heretics all over. But yeah, the chaos lord is extremely strong early on, and especially in 3v3 where your forced to fight him head on, it will be rather hard to win the first engagement.



Regarding doubling, if you're on the bottom lane you really are risking a lot by going top. That's why the bottom lane is regarded as the "gutter", you're basically just there, left alone to do your job (defend/take power). The only time you should really support top with a full army is if you have just forced off your opponent, but even then it might be better to just push your lane and destroy his power. It depends. Also other races like space marines have units like scouts who don't contribute considerably to engagement unless upgraded, getting a second scout squad and using it solely to cap the middle even though your not on that lane is very very effective, it can force your one of your opponents to split their army which makes it easier for whoever has to fight that guy. IG unfortunately don't really have a unit like that, they kinda need all their units together because their synergy is that high.




The IG commanders are quite unique, the inquisitor is called an offensive hero, but really she's more supportive, she shouldn't ever be leading the line, not unless she has her shield upgrade, but that's seldom worth it. I think IG pressure and pushes in general, in t1 are based around sentinels. Sentinels are the pivot of your pressure, supported by catachan ol reliables or spotter artillery shells. You want your sentinel to tank damage, you want cats/spotters to negate suppression, double repair the sentinel, focus down opposing suppression. You're leaders are there to support you. The inquisitor can HOTW enemy suppession squads (on their key unit, the one with the actual heavy weapon) she can HOTW enemy heroes, immobilise melee with her crossbow, tie up heavy ranged squads, or she can fend off melee with her brazier upgrade, but she is not really meant to tank, the sentinel does that job. The commissar is the same, you want to send in your sentinel first, always with guardsmen support behind it,then after they unleash their ranged fire on your sentinel, ol reliable their suppression team, activate lead by example on your commissar and tie up the suppression team, support your commissar by advancing the sentinel and stomping any melee that try to attack him.

In t2, IG pressure revolves around the use of chimeras or ogryns. Chimeras I find are very effective against races like chaos, space marines, grey knights and eldar because these races will often get suppression teams and the chimera negates that and forces them to get some form of AV, but most forms of AV 2x guardsmen can actually out-repair. Then if you discover they have a lascannon you can deal with that in numerous ways, catachans, spotters, missle launcher sentinel (attacking ground) or a manticore. Your leaders then support the push, they don't initiate it. Ogryns also work if they didn't get suppression or if you're against an enemy who lacks plasma ranged damage, the ogryns are extremely tanky and synergise greatly with bionic eye( commissar), mek-kits/stabilisers (general) silently( inquisitor), they can tank most of the damage for you while also countering melee while you use your other units to again deal with suppression.

In t3 the pivot unit becomes the leman russ and I'm sure you get the idea now. Sometimes you can be in a really bad situation where you just can't push against an enemy with a vehicle without it likely dying, but in such a situation I think that's when a manticore is good choice. Get the servo-skull if your the inquisitor for the sight radius, or stormtroopers otherwise and infiltrate them so you can get sight radius on their army, soften them up by manticore barraging their key units-lascannons, suppression, artillery. Then lead with your pressure unit. The inquisitor and the commissar certainly can tank, but IG have better uses for those heroes and the heroes can't do it as well as other race's heroes can. The commissar can flare suppression and then charge in with lead by example and stubbornness, but he'll die much quickly than a chaos lord under khorne worship would, the inquisitor can infiltrate herself with silently and then charge in with her rosarius on, but again, she would likely serve better behind her pressure unit, supporting it. The general shouldn't ever lead the charge as such, although early on he can certainly be useful just tanking damage tying up melee, but once he starts getting abilities he is far more useful at the backlines buffing his entire army.

Yeah I've been getting that feeling a lot lately. Played a few games today with commissar and inquisitor and it definitely was obvious that rushing them in once or twice was a BAD idea (luckily I was able to pull em out). I have been using my catachans to back hi up and I get his power sword upgrade so he can get that extra run in, but the trade off I noticed (and which also makes me reluctant do even do this) is that it wastes A LOT of energy early on. So it becomes a question of rushing in and not being able to soak up as much damage, or to forgo the speed buff and dmg buff and just run in and tank more with my shield. I think the first situation is probably better because of the huge increase in damage for the other units with Lead by Example, but it's tricky, especially if there's a HWT putting the rest of my troops down on lock down.

I think one of my problems with using Inquis is that i don't use enough of her other abilities. I'm fairly comfortable swapping between the different weapons based on the situation, but when it comes down to her armor, I almost always get the one which allows her to infiltrate her troops. I like to use this with Ogyrns (as mentioned above) as it lets me rush them in closer and also to possibly tie up set ups, but can be easily counter with simply adding a champion to the tic squads. I should probably use a few of her other abilities and test them out, but I'd probably need a better understanding of them first hand.

Gorilla wrote:First i wanna say torpid is one of better players in the game so take his advice seriously.

On a less technical note i want to say i have played with you and against you and i do not think you are terrible. in fact you have a good attitude and you do implement team work.

I want you to also realize that MANY of the players whom play this game have
hundreds if not thousands of hours of competitive playing compared to you. I myself have over 1k hours but even that pales in comparison of some whom have 2-3 k hours.
If you are reaching a wall where you are playing those types of people im sure it will seem insurmountable but keep it in perspective that they are usually the best players.

Remember you can always search replays of 3v3's and watch other better players. My brother Vroom is super good with IG but even he says Toilalee, for example, mops the floor with him. You can look up replays of 1v1 2v2 or 3v3 using specific IG commanders on youtube.

For example,

check out Indrid channel (dow replays .net ) for good technical breakdowns of what is happening and what the players might be thinking in specific match ups

Maestro cretella is sometimes less technical but perhaps more entertaining to watch. He too should have at least a dozen videos of every match up.

At least you can start there, along with continuing to answer questions.

Three good players of IG that i know by eperience are Toilalee, Texcalibur, VroomVroom

I'm a regular on indrids channel (it helps pass lunch time breaks at work!), and I've seen a lot from that channel. I've probably picked up most of what I learned before even starting the game and watching how others played!

But it's good to get a list of all the good players with IG (since I guess I'll have to use their vids as mentors), so I thank you for the list. I've already probably seen them play in the casts more or less since all 3 of the names are people I know in the casts, but I'll see if I can pay greater attention to that.

Thanks for the support thus far guys!

To follow up on my replays, I've attached the following videos on my Google Drive and opened this folder for sharing

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7xk81J ... sp=sharing
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7xk81J ... sp=sharing
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7xk81J ... sp=sharing
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7xk81J ... sp=sharing

You'll have to open them up in game I'm guessing, but they're matches I had today.
Granted, I won all 4 of those match ups, but I know for SURE i made a few mistakes and perhaps you guys could just pick one randomly and advise me with better strategies - if you have the time of course :p! It's a mix between IG and Orks, as I've been experimenting with Orks as well.

I was also casted in one video on YT which is a perfect example of how bad I am with commanders, though from watching this video and getting called out for my stupidity, I did pick up on the fact that I should wait for support so luckily, I'm not falling victim to the mistakes I made in this video since it was posted (mostly, I think).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lup_RlLJxMo

the only advice people can give you is theoretical, the only way you're going to get better is by playing against better players and getting stomped. And instead of just being angry and moping about it, watch the replay, see what you could've done better. Positioning, unit composition, wargear choices, teching timings.

Watching replays can only do so much, playing is the best way to learn.

[Crazy] Man64335 wrote:the only advice people can give you is theoretical, the only way you're going to get better is by playing against better players and getting stomped. And instead of just being angry and moping about it, watch the replay, see what you could've done better. Positioning, unit composition, wargear choices, teching timings.

Watching replays can only do so much, playing is the best way to learn.

+1 like

^i do that more than about 3 times and i'm too pissed to play

[Crazy] Man64335 wrote:the only advice people can give you is theoretical, the only way you're going to get better is by playing against better players and getting stomped. And instead of just being angry and moping about it, watch the replay, see what you could've done better. Positioning, unit composition, wargear choices, teching timings.

Watching replays can only do so much, playing is the best way to learn.

Doesn't seem he is mopping or angry to me.
He's kinda already doing the rest :p

And asking for help, which is good.
Already got what he needed I think. At least for now.

I'm a regular on indrids channel (it helps pass lunch time breaks at work!), and I've seen a lot from that channel. I've probably picked up most of what I learned before even starting the game and watching how others played!

But it's good to get a list of all the good players with IG (since I guess I'll have to use their vids as mentors), so I thank you for the list. I've already probably seen them play in the casts more or less since all 3 of the names are people I know in the casts, but I'll see if I can pay greater attention to that.

Thanks for the support thus far guys!

To follow up on my replays, I've attached the following videos on my Google Drive and opened this folder for sharing

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7xk81J ... sp=sharing
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7xk81J ... sp=sharing
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7xk81J ... sp=sharing
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7xk81J ... sp=sharing

You'll have to open them up in game I'm guessing, but they're matches I had today.
Granted, I won all 4 of those match ups, but I know for SURE i made a few mistakes and perhaps you guys could just pick one randomly and advise me with better strategies - if you have the time of course :p! It's a mix between IG and Orks, as I've been experimenting with Orks as well.

I was also casted in one video on YT which is a perfect example of how bad I am with commanders, though from watching this video and getting called out for my stupidity, I did pick up on the fact that I should wait for support so luckily, I'm not falling victim to the mistakes I made in this video since it was posted (mostly, I think).

Could you upload those same videos to youtube from the account you use to watch indrids games? That would help me, and maybe others, whom are at work but still able to watch your videos and comment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lup_RlLJxMo

Could you upload those same videos to youtube from the account you use to watch indrids games? That would help me, and maybe others, whom are at work but still able to watch your videos and comment.

="[Crazy] ...And instead of just being angry and moping about it, watch the replay, see what you could've done better...

I would think that by coming on the forum, where your supposed to, and giving specific examples of situations where he is having problems shows that he came here cool and collected. instead of ranting on steam or in elite mod channel. I am sure he realizes anyone whom is good at anything has more experience then him but answering legitimate questions shouldnt be discouraged. At least he didnt make a thread to nerf chaos or anything at all.

Gorilla wrote:
Could you upload those same videos to youtube from the account you use to watch indrids games? That would help me, and maybe others, whom are at work but still able to watch your videos and comment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lup_RlLJxMo

One step ahead of ya - or, sort of haha. I was asking on the group chat on steam about what programs Indrid used for his replays last night, as I was interested in putting up the videos on my own channel with my own commentary explaining what my train of thought was along side the actual clips. I believe it was Crazyman that gave me two suggestions - Fraps and a second one (can't remember the name currently). I tried the second one but it seemed to choke up and freeze, and I'm reluctant to jump straight into Fraps as he also mentioned the crazy video sizes (i.e vids jumping as high as 200 gb for 30 minutes of gameplay) as of this moment. I'll need to buy another hdd before I consider Fraps I supose (which, in retrospect, I should do anyway since my current internal is almost full and I left my externals back at my rents place the last time I was over)

Gorilla wrote:

Crazy wrote:...And instead of just being angry and moping about it, watch the replay, see what you could've done better...

I would think that by coming on the forum, where your supposed to, and giving specific examples of situations where he is having problems shows that he came here cool and collected. instead of ranting on steam or in elite mod channel. I am sure he realizes anyone whom is good at anything has more experience then him but answering legitimate questions shouldnt be discouraged. At least he didnt make a thread to nerf chaos or anything at all.

definitely don't have to worry about that - I'd probably avoid trying to use the word nerf since I've not much room to talk considering I'm n00bish and haven't really had the time or experience to let all the factions sink in, let alone knowing what their specific strengths and weaknesses are.

I should point out i'm NOT saying he's moping and being angry, that's just the response i hear alot of people having after getting stomped. In fact he's doing quite the opposite and i applaud him for that, just clarifying

@Badass,
Regarding your first point, I honestly think that for some matchups no amount of fancy micro will yield you a win in the first engagement if both players really commit to a fight. In those cases, you have to play at guerrilla warfare until you get power for sent stomp/other upgrades. Use your sent to scout and back off with your main army - as long as he's chasing you, he's not capping, so you're not really "losing" anything. If your opponent DOES stop to cap, then press your attack while their forces are divided.

I find I have to do this a lot in 2v2s as TM vs brocap, because there's no way to hold off the strike squad and brocap when he pops we are the hammer and you have no shotties/devs. Strike squad melees your tacs, brocap melees TM, storms shoot up your scouts ->

[Crazy] Man64335 wrote:I should point out i'm NOT saying he's moping and being angry, that's just the response i hear alot of people having after getting stomped. In fact he's doing quite the opposite and i applaud him for that, just clarifying

i misunderstood you. i apologize.



@commisar

ill be waiting to see your uploads

@badass

I applaud you for posting this thread and working towards getting better by implementing lots of feedback along with playing and reviewing you own replays etc.

I have nearly 1.3k hours myself and I still make plenty of mistakes like a noob and have plenty to learn still. Sometimes I am too tired or just don't have my "groove" on with the game too, but want to practice or just play for fun no matter what happens. Like any other competitive sport though, tensing up or worrying probably won't help. Stick with chill players who don't mind the practice, be honest, have fun still no matter what.

Also, some games just go poorly--especially team games and you've got to either hold as much as you can manage to hold in resources (outmatched in skill level or army etc.) and bide your time until you have an army that can compete/counter... or surrender and try again. No biggie right? Keeping at it, asking for feedback, reviewing your replays and breaking down what went wrong are crucial and key. You are already doing that, thus play more. Lots more! And be sure to play at least one other race ie Chaos so you can learn how and why they may be so successful against you.

I have recently been playing a lot of Chaos.... and yeah where Chaos vs IG is concerned it's a very tough game early on for the IG player, especially against double tics and especially with the Chaos Lard/Lord being able chase all those small mens down and hack them up early on. But it is possible... you obs need the Senti stomp asap, fire down heretics with both guard squads (kite if you can) AND the senti so as to at least make the Chaos player pay for a melee charge and reduce the amount of damage incoming (might even wipe a tic squad), then focus on either the CSM or CL (one or the other, not both) and force retreat from there; typically you will need to kite the CL for a time. The Senti can do some serious damage to either the Chaos Lard or the CSM early on though, so keep that thing moving but also firing at all times.

Now of course this is all proto-typical the way I have explained a 'lane' engagement with a Chaos player. It could be that you might keep the Senti firing on the CSM if they are out of cover, or even the Chaos hero if caught alone, to force the squad off early; except where the Senti is in long melee engagements in the early game, it can avoid and survive plenty of melee attacks and get away usually (barring banshee or slugga getting at it). Thus, usually the trick for Chaos is to hit the Sent with bolter fire from cover while the rest of the Chaos army attacks with melee upon the guards that would repair the sent... then they charge CSM into melee to support as needed, thus everything except the IG hero is pushed off... in the end it is all situational and only practice and experience will help you to adjust as necessary. Push comes to shove: retreat to keep losses down, protect your resources as best you can and bide your time to build your army. Late game for IG is glorious and very hard for Chaos to deal with '

Last but not least: you need to play 1v1's. A lot. Even if you need to spend time in retail ranked search to find games, go play 1v1's, lose a lot, learn a lot, get much much better

Arbit wrote:@Badass,
Regarding your first point, I honestly think that for some matchups no amount of fancy micro will yield you a win in the first engagement if both players really commit to a fight. In those cases, you have to play at guerrilla warfare until you get power for sent stomp/other upgrades. Use your sent to scout and back off with your main army - as long as he's chasing you, he's not capping, so you're not really "losing" anything. If your opponent DOES stop to cap, then press your attack while their forces are divided.

I find I have to do this a lot in 2v2s as TM vs brocap, because there's no way to hold off the strike squad and brocap when he pops we are the hammer and you have no shotties/devs. Strike squad melees your tacs, brocap melees TM, storms shoot up your scouts ->

Than I'm happy to say when I see my opponent capping, I try and take as much advantage of the fact. I don't know if this is strategically "smart" but I used to rush my Commanders to cap VP's, but I noticed in doing so, I took a lot of unnecessary damage (or wasted energy in the commissar's case) before the real fighting began. So, I instead have been messing around with the idea of pulling back a little and capping some other points and keeping and eye for a contested VP cap by the enemy. As soon as I see it, I start to do some early harass with my guardsmen and it seems to be helpful in that it gives a bit of an advantage (especially if it's tics that are capping as I can cut some units down if they fail to make them fall back and continues with the cap)

Gorilla wrote:

[Crazy] Man64335 wrote:I should point out i'm NOT saying he's moping and being angry, that's just the response i hear alot of people having after getting stomped. In fact he's doing quite the opposite and i applaud him for that, just clarifying

i misunderstood you. i apologize.

@commisar

ill be waiting to see your uploads

I hope you're not waiting for it in the short run - I'm still trying to figure out what's my best option for recording my games and putting 'em onto youtube :p In the worst case scenario, I'm gonna have to find the time to drop by a computer hardware store and pick up and internal HDD to put into my rig. But I will hopefully have it done sooner than later!

Castle wrote:@badass

I applaud you for posting this thread and working towards getting better by implementing lots of feedback along with playing and reviewing you own replays etc.

I have nearly 1.3k hours myself and I still make plenty of mistakes like a noob and have plenty to learn still. Sometimes I am too tired or just don't have my "groove" on with the game too, but want to practice or just play for fun no matter what happens. Like any other competitive sport though, tensing up or worrying probably won't help. Stick with chill players who don't mind the practice, be honest, have fun still no matter what.

Also, some games just go poorly--especially team games and you've got to either hold as much as you can manage to hold in resources (outmatched in skill level or army etc.) and bide your time until you have an army that can compete/counter... or surrender and try again. No biggie right? Keeping at it, asking for feedback, reviewing your replays and breaking down what went wrong are crucial and key. You are already doing that, thus play more. Lots more! And be sure to play at least one other race ie Chaos so you can learn how and why they may be so successful against you.

I have recently been playing a lot of Chaos.... and yeah where Chaos vs IG is concerned it's a very tough game early on for the IG player, especially against double tics and especially with the Chaos Lard/Lord being able chase all those small mens down and hack them up early on. But it is possible... you obs need the Senti stomp asap, fire down heretics with both guard squads (kite if you can) AND the senti so as to at least make the Chaos player pay for a melee charge and reduce the amount of damage incoming (might even wipe a tic squad), then focus on either the CSM or CL (one or the other, not both) and force retreat from there; typically you will need to kite the CL for a time. The Senti can do some serious damage to either the Chaos Lard or the CSM early on though, so keep that thing moving but also firing at all times.

Now of course this is all proto-typical the way I have explained a 'lane' engagement with a Chaos player. It could be that you might keep the Senti firing on the CSM if they are out of cover, or even the Chaos hero if caught alone, to force the squad off early; except where the Senti is in long melee engagements in the early game, it can avoid and survive plenty of melee attacks and get away usually (barring banshee or slugga getting at it). Thus, usually the trick for Chaos is to hit the Sent with bolter fire from cover while the rest of the Chaos army attacks with melee upon the guards that would repair the sent... then they charge CSM into melee to support as needed, thus everything except the IG hero is pushed off... in the end it is all situational and only practice and experience will help you to adjust as necessary. Push comes to shove: retreat to keep losses down, protect your resources as best you can and bide your time to build your army. Late game for IG is glorious and very hard for Chaos to deal with '

Last but not least: you need to play 1v1's. A lot. Even if you need to spend time in retail ranked search to find games, go play 1v1's, lose a lot, learn a lot, get much much better

To answer some stuff in order of your suggestions:

- I have started playing another race; Orks. I actually enjoyed their play style a little (as well as the commentary, i.e Warboss commenting on the boys needing to pee because its going to be a long walk). I'll probably focus on the two for now, maybe picking up SM or CSM in the far future.

- I try to focus the tics as soon as possible to get rid of potential doom blasts, on top of which they are extremely squishy. And therein after, my decision to focus on either the CL or CSM is based on which is posing the biggest threat. Seeing as the CSM are usually in the background, it's usually the chaos lord so I just kite him back as far back into my lines as possible and focus fire on him, and continuing on from there. It works, but again - I guess it's luck of the draw. I've been avoiding a lot of those Kill the Weak, and it also help peel him off faster luckily.

- I don't usually want my Senti hitting CSM off the bat even if they are free of cover (bar the obvious exceptions where I catch some CSM off guard without mush support to help them out). I've not had too much of a big deal when it comes to take early game fire on my senti; assuming that they don't go double csm (abd later into Tzeentch which is another story all together as those guys begin to RIP on my senti/guardsmen like a knife through butter).

Just a few tips.
1. You have to deny, to any Chaos player, a thing called worship. Without that the CL
is slowest than a granma; the only one that I've seen microing 2 or 3 tics so that the
CL is in a constant, and I do repeat CONSTANT, leap frogging run is Codex
If you really fear the CL do not fight vs him
2. Using the Sentinel vs a Chaos army is a suicide unless u know, exactly, what u are
doing; if you field it in the early game use it to destroy all the green cover that the
CSMs can use, but as said be4 unless u see NMs don't do it.
Any1 knows that after the stomp a Sent is like a Pokemon and its kryptonite is any
unit able to melee or to go in force melee.
3. Learn how to use properly the Catachans; OR, SG, going in force melee vs the CSMs.
4. In a 3vs3 unless u know exactly what u are doing if you see a teammate of yours
being doubled go to double on the opposite side especially if the resource line/zone is
there; better to do some economical damage to the enemy than to have 2 full armies
in retreat. If you are in the resource line/zone never, ever, go in a full retreat but
take time until you have what you need to push the enemy off and then go to bash his
gens to make him pay; if doubled ask for help since the in-game chat is there to be
used.

I hope that this will help you. C ya on the battlefield Comm

Sentinel vs Chaos is not a suicude, it's a need if you don't want to get rofl stomped by heretics/nm, Also Chaos can't deal with them in t1 effectively (i know they have havocs, but you don't want to charge the havoc with your sent, or do you ? )

Why Kvek always post something deliberately omitting some part of a previous speech? It will remain a mystery.
Btw, as I've stated be4, never ever use a Sent unless u know, exactly, what u are doing [it means how to micro it properly]. Since i don't believe that Toil will ask for our help in here on how to deal vs Chaos I have to argue that part of the problem is in Comm's microing skills. Havoks vs IG? really a nice idea after what i've wrote about learning how to use Catachans; and i haven't mentioned the artillery spotters that, added to the Catchs and to
the Commissar flare make the Havoks totally useless. A good replay could have been: Catchs ? U are asking for NMs that means troubles.

Btw, as I've stated be4, never ever use a Sent unless u know, exactly, what u are doing [it means how to micro it properly]

how are you going to learn how to use it if you don't?

Ace of Swords wrote:how are you going to learn how to use it if you don't?

Ok Ace lets talk about this. Want to use sents ? kk. I don't think that Comm Lag is a
n00b. Do u ? Watch if he has fielded his 3 sents build after the stomp he has taken.
What has he learned ? To don't field sents vs Pros if u aren't able to micro them out of
danger. Want to teach to Comm how to micro a sent ? In this case pm him and do it.

I've given only basic advices, dude, and not, i do repeat NOT, a total guide to the dow2
retribution elite mod mp for IG players.

You can't teach someone how to micro, he has to learn by himself, the best you can do is to tell him how to use the unit, but even then he should use it as it fits in his own playstyle, that said i was absolutely terrible with sents and I just played over and over 3 sents in 1v1 still i got them right, and i now I almost never play 2GM in 2v2/3v3 and mostly 2gm 2 sents in 1v1.

Shaal, first of all I think you need to calm down a little bit. To me it seems you are getting a little bit fused up about the responses you get and I don't see why.
This is a forum after all and nobody said anything provocative in my eyes.

And I, like Kvek, also disagree on the sent statement.
I feel like in 1v1 a sent is very standard and needed in your BO in any mu,
especially vs Chaos because of the heretics. [Unless you go ballsy with 3-4gm.]

I do agree with your first point but want to add that it's tricky to do so all the time.
A Chaos player will not have his heretics running in front of his army alone.
Unless he's moving in with the rest of his force trying to push you off or something.
Typically not the case with the PC when he is using his heretics to heal his infantry from the back. Or with the Chaos Sorcerer, maybe even using double infiltration.
Here for example you want to use that sentinel in the early stages.
Try to find out where his heretics are capping and go disrupt him to either force him of and/or decap his resources. Or force his hand in sending other forces there.
Forcing someone to do something they didn't want to or weren't planning on usually is good for you.


Then may I suggest you to use the "preview" button? Since you have these awkward lay-outs on your post and you seem to try and get a good one.
It's a shame if that work goes to waste. I try to myself as well ^^

And ask you what "SG" means? Because I'm clueless at the moment :p

Shaal wrote:

Ace of Swords wrote:how are you going to learn how to use it if you don't?

Ok Ace lets talk about this. Want to use sents ? kk. I don't think that Comm Lag is a
n00b. Do u ? Watch if he has fielded his 3 sents build after the stomp he has taken.
What has he learned ? To don't field sents vs Pros if u aren't able to micro them out of
danger. Want to teach to Comm how to micro a sent ? In this case pm him and do it.

I've given only basic advices, dude, and not, i do repeat NOT, a total guide to the dow2
retribution elite mod mp for IG players.

You haven't given the basics. You've given bad advice. Sentinels are more effective against Chaos in tier 1 than they are against just about any other race. They generally have the lowest amount of ranged dps in tier 1, so they have much less ability to pressure the sentinel.

Alright, to put things back into perspective a little (and focusing on the real topic at hand haha) ...

I've a question about Orks. What's a general good T2 unit (one that isn't situational based - that is, used to counter an enemy you see on the field, such as tankbustas for AV)? My assumption is that it's a weirdboy, but I'm curious when to use a Deff Dread? I know they are typically weak compared to other walkers (or so it seems) and they require support, but how do they fair overall? Are they worth an investment against a heavily invested Light/Heavy infantry army, or is the risk of them dying too easy not worth it?

Since we're on the topic of Deff's, when should I use their speed boost (I forget the name of the ability). I'm start to get the feeling that I should probably hold out on it and use it as an escape mechanism more than anything else, using their regular speed to hopefully push the enemy off and allow something like my Warboss or Sluggas to close the gap while they try to get out of my deff's grasp?

Lastly, and to close ... for T2 orks, I feel like I try to get out of it as fast as possible unless I need to make a unit to counter something out on the field. Otherwise, I focus on mainly upgrading t1 units and my commander to try and keep up with what's out there. I know I'm doing something wrong with my T2 because I highly doubt their t2 would be that luck luster, and I'm probably skimming over something very useful.

Generally a deff dread/weirdboy are great t2 purchases in all match ups. If they have a lot of melee the weirdboy is invaluable since your sluggas with their nob will destroy anything in t2 in melee with vomit support.

Stikks are a bit too req intensive for their use IMO, whenever I get them I mess up my economy and so I wouldn't recommend them unless they are blobbing hard/you have a req float.

The wartrukk is alright, but honestly the deff dread usually guarantees a whole farm gen bash and it actually contributes to the fight and it requires a heavier AV response for not much of an investment, beside it's power cost relative to it's req cost is very high, which is odd for an ork unit since all their t2 units are really power cheap. I think it's just so good at the moment, I get it nearly all the time, it balances out your eco so well and really has no disadvantages, just making them lose that suppression and the gen farm justifies it's cost alone. Multiple deff dreads is a tactic that can work very well too. I like it as the mek, get the battery pack for the heal on them and a beamy deffgun to counter their walkers if they have any, if they don't just use the mek to tie up lascannons while the deff dreads use their charge to get in swiftly and do work, if things get rough you always have the mek-speed-buffing global to save the day.


Regarding ork t2 I think you're bang on regarding trying to get out of it ASAP. The longer you spend in it the more likely you are to get stuck in it with a power float and a lack of requisition. You should probably pick up the weirdboy in all matchups assuming he has no direct counters to him (snipers/lictor/jump squads/flak jacket) and probably a vehicle alongside any nob upgrades you have yet to get on your boys, but I think further investment are rarely wise. I mean it's obviously all situational, sometimes you will need to keep investing in t2 if you hit it around the same time as your foe and he just keeps buying more and more because if you try to tech you will lose all your gens.

Lord General - How in the f*@k do you play him
I don`t get how the LG is as good as he supposedly is. I understand how easy it is to make use of stabilizers, but it's easy to counter infantry by getting set up teams and a multitude of other things. His weapons (Save for the grenade launcher) seem shitty as weapons and are used more so for utility. He can tank a lot of damage early game but becomes void and null by end game as there will be virtually no reason to throw him into melee.

His globals seem extremely subpar until T3 where he gets the nice little leman russ drop, but the most I've gotten out of creeping barrage is forced retreats on enemies who think it's a rocket run in T3 (which is rare as is).

I'm seriously missing something because I've never had a good game with him yet. Played offensive, defensively, reactive or proactive play; it's all the same end result. Can someone please direct me as to how he's as good as everyone says he is, or show me some demonstrative videos showing off proper LG plays - because I don't get it. He's supposedly one the most difficult IG commander to play against, but I don't see the numbers adding up often. He seems like such a reactive type commander that it's almost painful as you're sitting just waiting to see what your opponent does on every move.

Macro an army with double senti's
Played a game where I went dbl senti into another GM squad in T1, and it went considerably well. T2, I was able to get out the missle pods and they paid themselves off immensely by taking out a rhino, several gens, multitudes of troops. However, in light of this fact, the rest of my army suffered. I followed up with a storm trooper squad in T2 but by this point, it seems as if my upkeep could not keep up.

So my big issue is macro - how should I compose my army? What should I be looking out for? I suffer terribly with my macro, and I usually find myself just waiting in T3 to get any units out of the field; is this normal? Or is there a better way of playing things?

Shaal wrote:Why Kvek always post something deliberately omitting some part of a previous speech? It will remain a mystery.
Btw, as I've stated be4, never ever use a Sent unless u know, exactly, what u are doing [it means how to micro it properly]. Since i don't believe that Toil will ask for our help in here on how to deal vs Chaos I have to argue that part of the problem is in Comm's microing skills. Havoks vs IG? really a nice idea after what i've wrote about learning how to use Catachans; and i haven't mentioned the artillery spotters that, added to the Catchs and to
the Commissar flare make the Havoks totally useless. A good replay could have been: Catchs ? U are asking for NMs that means troubles.

never ever play DoW2 unless you exactly know what are you saying...

Focus on improving you play with guardsmen and sentinels, particularly the synergy of the 2 in t1. That's pretty much the basis and key to all good ig 1v1 play.

Toilailee wrote:Focus on improving you play with guardsmen and sentinels, particularly the synergy of the 2 in t1. That's pretty much the basis and key to all good ig 1v1 play.

I dont play 1v1's, Im not good enough.