Dawn of War Codex

Ok a few things that have always irked me about these units

First of all, all Marines should have HEAVY armor and MELEE RESESTANCE aura. These two dont.

1) Plague marines. The DPS is extremely bad for both melee and ranged. The DPS should be in line with similar stats of other units like CSM or tacs.

2) Noise marines. DPS for bolters/melee is extra bad as well. Also, they dont scale into T2 in any sort of ways. You re always meant to turn them into a blastmaster or otherwise feed them to your opponent to get rid of this gimmick unit come t2. They should scale in their oroginal role in t2/t3.
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To sum up

All units must be balanced. But also well designed and according to their fluff background. NM and PM are very very far from their background as being slightly diffirent CSM. They are completely upside down compared to the marines.

If i was a game designer i would design these two units based on the following axiomas:

-heavy armor + melee resistance aura
-bolter and melee dps similar to the CSM
-scalable into T2/T3 in their original roles

Balance all other factors like costs, upgrades, health, regen, upkeep, food etc accordingly but make sure these units are abiding these beforementioned roles. Just for fluff sake.

Can you please fix this. Its Relic's fault we have to work with these units in their current shape

noise marines dont need or want heavy armor , their durability comes from a high hp pool, and high regen, this would be ruined if plasma weapons could eat them alive since they kind of rely on the enemy getting plasma to counter csm and plasma isnt so useful vs infantry armor. their dps is terrible , no argument there but most people use them as a squad to tie people up rather than a damage source since they do have high hp and slow units around them.


noise marines need a nerf , not a buff

I want a complete rework for both units

They should be marine-ish both of them

Max_Damage wrote:Ok a few things that have always irked me about these units

First of all, all Marines should have HEAVY armor and MELEE RESESTANCE aura. These two dont.

When your armor's broken, especially when it's only as protective when it's whole and turned on (power armor without power is just armor that's super heavy), you kinda lose a lot of defense benefits. To add onto that, PM have over double the health of CSM and nearly double of tacs. If you give them HI, then they become way too tanky for a T2 squad that's the definition of a blind purchase.

If by MR you mean the CPM, then they got the aura in the original 2.4 patch I believe.

Max_Damage wrote:1) Plague marines. The DPS is extremely bad for both melee and ranged. The DPS should be in line with similar stats of other units like CSM or tacs.

For CPM, while the actual knife does little, they have a dot that stacks indefinitely (though of course the dot is active for a short amount of time so it's not like it's truly infinite) which is their main source of damage. On top of that, they have Nurgle's Rot which sets all infected enemy hp regen to 0 and makes them into zombies if they die, and their death explosion which actually heals themselves unlike normal PMs, allowing them to fight for longer with each death and giving a nice damage spike with 50 piercing dmg.

For normal PM, they actually just had their damage buffed from 10 to 18 dph. Add onto that that their bolters also have a dot effect on them, and they will do decent damage to infantry. However, you should be aware that they are originally supposed to be AV not AI. They are not a tac squad that is the epitome of jack-of-all-trades, they are a missile squad that's meant to be chasing vehicles down with their 130 dph snaring missile. They are very good at holding the line because of their huge health pool and buffed health regen, true, but that doesn't mean that that's their calling in life.

Max_Damage wrote:2) Noise marines. DPS for bolters/melee is extra bad as well. Also, they dont scale into T2 in any sort of ways. You re always meant to turn them into a blastmaster or otherwise feed them to your opponent to get rid of this gimmick unit come t2. They should scale in their oroginal role in t2/t3.

Their bolter might be bad, but the whole point of getting them is for their sonic blaster, which shuts down all ranged weapons and abilities and melts gens and regular infantry. IG and nids get downright raped if NM aren't focused enough to be forced off the field or kited to stay out of their short range of 26. Saying they don't scale is like saying tics don't scale. Their worship and shrines late game can be incredibly helpful should you field BL or if you have a PC with his healing and reinforcing shrine. You get the BM in T3 because there are too many ways of shredding the NM, so you place them in the back lines to keep them safe.

Also, they do 18 melee with the SB and 22 with the BM. That's rather good for a ranged squad.

Max_Damage wrote:To sum up

All units must be balanced. But also well designed and according to their fluff background. NM and PM are very very far from their background as being slightly diffirent CSM. They are completely upside down compared to the marines.

If i was a game designer i would design these two units based on the following axiomas:

-heavy armor + melee resistance aura
-bolter and melee dps similar to the CSM
-scalable into T2/T3 in their original roles

Balance all other factors like costs, upgrades, health, regen, upkeep, food etc accordingly but make sure these units are abiding these beforementioned roles. Just for fluff sake.

Can you please fix this. Its Relic's fault we have to work with these units in their current shape

If we were going by fluff, then the GK would be the undisputed winner of each and ever single match with just a single SS. Just like you said,

Max_Damage wrote:All units must be balanced.

That comes before the fluff, both in balancing and in your post. Yes, we can't just say "screw it" and throw the fluff out the window, but as long as we stay relatively close to it, we can keep the game balanced without having to just call DoW2:Elite Dow2:Grey Knights Show Everyone How It's Done.

Noise marines do have heavy infantry armor.

Noise Marines already have Heavy Armor.

If we do go based on fluff, then Dark Reapers should be able to snipe all enemies types with their rapid fire missle launchers at long range.

Also, granting these units the changes you proposed and having modders balance around these would be tedious, time consuming and with poor returns (in terms of balance). The mod may end up being worser in return (which would go against the direction of achieving balanace alongside other aims). They could easily focus on better things for the mod, such as further improving gameplay and more bug crushing.

On a side note, are you the polar opposite of Max Power? You favour CSM and primarily suggest CSM buffs. Gotta be right? Even the name can't be a coincidence

Good thing you are not a game designer then Max

How things would work if we worked to fluff, GK edition:

GK as a faction should do more damage to daemons
Strike Squad purification should drain daemon energy AND deal damage to them
Strike Squads should get the 'power weapon' archetype
All power weapon wielding GK units should have a chance of instantly killing models in melee, because force weapons
When engaging GK in combat, IG squads should have a chance of instantly retreating, because GK are that badass
GK should do more damage to CSM and SM, since they're obviously heretics and GK are designed to counter heretics
BC should start with a REAL power weapon, not that wooden walking stick he has at the moment
GK Librarian should be able to instantly banish lesser daemons
GK Librarian should have a new ability 'Use True Name' which severely damages and stuns greater daemons
Vindicare should be able to pick out squad leaders in one shot, what is the point of a sniper if it's not one shot one kill
Vindicare turbo rounds should stun vehicles for 5-10 seconds to signify sniper rounds hitting the vehicle's engines or KO'ing the pilot through vision slits

When I first started out, I too was surprised to find out that devastators did barely any melee damage and was more fragile than tacs, but both DOW II and the mod is inspired by fluff, not dictated by it. Balance considerations comes first and fluff comes second. If you're truly, truly infuriated by the lack of adherence to fluff, then the Codex mod would more suit your needs.

So if Noise Marines damage was brought in line with CSM, and they then scaled better, why should I buy CSM? Triple Tics into double NM every game

And they scale perfectly. Any flame weapon that shuts down all abilities doesn't suddenly become useless come tier two, and Plague Marines have that missile launcher to lug around and if you hadn't noticed their muscles are slightly decayed, so forgive them for their weak trigger fingers.

Cheekie Monkie wrote:GK as a faction should do more damage to daemons

Christ, I remember in DoW1 when a GK squad actually DID do bonus damage to daemons

there are more interesting ways to facilitate the gks's ability to counter daemons over just making them do more damage. plus you can argue the easy access to energy burn abilities and ability denial would be good enough since most daemons rely on their abilities to be viable.

after all, bloodletters, crushers and the guo without energy or abilities are just units with crappy base stats.

saltychipmunk wrote:there are more interesting ways to facilitate the gks's ability to counter daemons over just making them do more damage. plus you can argue the easy access to energy burn abilities and ability denial would be good enough since most daemons rely on their abilities to be viable.

after all, bloodletters, crushers and the guo without energy or abilities are just units with crappy base stats.

Crushers/GUO sure. But bloodletters, nah. 45dps and 300hp per model for 12 pop. That's nuts. Even without the teleport/phase out. If we don't count worship as an ability then they'de still serve their primary purpose as a melee deterrent perfectly.

Torpid wrote:

saltychipmunk wrote:there are more interesting ways to facilitate the gks's ability to counter daemons over just making them do more damage. plus you can argue the easy access to energy burn abilities and ability denial would be good enough since most daemons rely on their abilities to be viable.

after all, bloodletters, crushers and the guo without energy or abilities are just units with crappy base stats.

Crushers/GUO sure. But bloodletters, nah. 45dps and 300hp per model for 12 pop. That's nuts. Even without the teleport/phase out. If we don't count worship as an ability then they'de still serve their primary purpose as a melee deterrent perfectly.

considering how many other options chaos has for melee deterrent i would hardly call the blood letters special though.

Well they're more or less immortal under worship. They have insane dps and amazing specials. They're rough.