A Few Eldar Questions

[Kvn]

Hello.

Long time player, first time poster. I'd like to start off by thanking Caeltos and everyone involved with this mod for the incredible work they've done to benefit both the game and the Dawn of War community as a whole.

On topic though, I've been wondering about a couple of units in the Eldar roster for a while now. Having mained them since the start of Retribution, I now more often then not question what the purpose of these squads are.

Firstly, Rangers. Used to absolutely love these guys (both for their aesthetic as well as their killing potential) but now they seem incredibly lackluster. My question is, what's the point of getting them anymore? The only reason I can come up with is that they offer detection and a long range shotgun blast-esq ability. Their damage is pretty pitiful nowadays against most infantry, and they have zero scaling potential. Holo Fields are nice, but heavily situational and require your opponent to not be paying attention or have any form of detection.

While I don't necessarily agree with some of the reasoning behind their initial nerfs, my main concern here is that they no longer function in any useful capacity. I play Farseer, so maybe my views on the necessity of their detection is a bit skewed, but they really don't do much. Everyone I've talked to says that you use them to focus heroes now, but they don't really accomplish anything. If I'm focusing a small hero, I'd either want Dire Avengers, who can offer both heavy sustained dps as well as utility, or Banshees, who... well... are Banshees. Light heroes don't like getting close to those ladies. Heavy heroes don't even feel the Ranger shots. Chaos Lords, Hive Tyrants, Warbosses, etc. can tank an ungodly number of hits from them without so much as batting an eyelid. Quite frankly, the damage from a Guardian Weapons Team is more frightening and useful against them even though they can typically just walk up to the platform and start beating on it. At least in that case it takes off a good chunk of their hp, forces them to commit hard to the engagement, and can be upgraded with a Brightlance later down the line.

I've had a few games against other Eldar where the opponent went for Rangers, and I've found myself simply ignoring them in T1. Unupgraded Dire Avengers usually tank three to four (or more if you get lucky) hits without losing a model thanks to the Rangers rarely shooting the same guy twice. He can disrupt me sure, but that's all that they really contribute to an engagement. Their damage output isn't nearly as scary as a GWT against other Eldar infantry, and they simply can't force off units with the threat of bleed anymore. Almost without exception, when I play against an Eldar who goes for them, I'm in T2 first with 2xDire Avengers, Banshees, and a setup team and roll over them with an early vehicle. Since he's got no GWT he can't get a Brightlance, and even if he had it, the huge resource cost of getting out Rangers plus anything else sets him back in a big way.

The second unit I had questions about were Fire Dragons. I've tried using them many times throughout their history, but have yet to actually find any reason for sinking the 360 rec 30 power, plus the cost of the Exarch, into a unit with such low returns. As they are, they simply don't due what you buy them to do. Namely counter vehicles.

Let me explain. Fire Dragons hit the field in response to a vehicle threat. In T2, that either means a transport, a walker, or a rushed Blood Crusher/Deff Dread. Against a transport, they will never get close enough to do anything. Since they have no infiltration, teleport, etc. they can't surprise the enemy and their bright orange coloring and av decorator broadcast their presence a mile away. Against walkers, they're just going to be punched to bits. They can't kite since they don't have a means of escape, and their incredibly short range makes them easy pickings for an aggressive player. Can this overextend the walker and cause it to die? Sure, but you need another entirely different source of av to kill it which, if you bought Fire Dragons to begin with, you probably don't have. Fighting the BC/DD has the same issue.

Come T3 tanks don't have to worry at all as they can simply outshoot the Dragons if they have at least one unit repairing. Something I've learned the hard way many times in the past. The only exception in the Fire Prism, but if any av unit gets that close to one, it's dead regardless.

If you use them in conjunction with Warp Spiders, they do incredible work. The vehicle is helpless, and the Dragons rip through it like a flamer through guardsmen. That said, you NEED the Warp Spiders in order to stop the vehicle in it's tracks. By that point, you've invested something along the lines of 900 rec and 100 power simply to counter a T2 vehicle. Now the opponent is miles ahead in tech, and can fairly easily play around the build you've been stuck with. Then both of these squads bleed you dry as your opponent focuses them down. Even with the Dragons' 20% damage resist, the still drop like flies and cost power to reinforce, something that is incredibly crushing to an Eldar eco.

Now I know that people are going to say things such as "use Warlock armor to infiltrate them" but I'd like to counter by pointing out that Storm Troopers can infiltrate despite the Inquisitor having a very similar ability. Bloodletters can teleport despite the plethora of teleportation abilities that the Sorcerer has. Terminators can teleport despite the Libby's Gate of Infinity. Other Eldar have fleet despite the Swift Movement global. Basically, what I'm saying is that a unit shouldn't be entirely dependent on another unit just to perform their basic function.

In all the games I've played, and all the replays I've watched, I've only ever seen them do work twice. Once in the recent cast on Indrid's channel (2v2 featuring Hans using them with Warpspider support) and in once game I played against Tex in matchmaking. To be fair though, he curbstomped me pretty hard in T1 with double Banshees so he'd probably have won with just his hero at that point. My Falcon wasn't exactly helping me to get back the map.

I'd just like to make it clear that I'm not asking for buffs for either of these units. Nor am I even asking that you don't nerf them in the future. It makes no difference to me as I've stopped using the entirely. What I'm doing here is trying to see the logic behind their current designs, as I simply don't understand them anymore. Maybe they're just not useful, or maybe I'm missing something, but by now they just don't appear to be worth buying in all but the most desperate shot-in-the-dark circumstances.

[Codex]

EDIT: Just made an executive decision.

Moving to Strategy Discussion.

[Kvn]

Sorry about that. Wasn't sure whether this counted as balance or strategy, so I guessed.

[Lichtbringer]

Just to get you up to speed with the most recent changes:
Rangers WITH their Pathfindergear now have a weak surpression. They need 2-3 shots to start it, and then with continious fire the enemy is supressed for 80% of the time.
Their kinetic shot was buffed, and does now more damage and has less Cooldown which is really usefull.
I get them mostly for anti Setupteam and huge detection to keep my setupteams /Fireprisms save and scout with them + their amazing kinetic blast.
Kinetic blast into Nade is just so good against everything. Kineticshot on Guardsmen/Guardians does a big chunk of their health. The Kineticblast in general is just nice to keep your setupteam from being meleed, it gives it time to setup in a pinch, or you can knockback units that try to flank. Or you can knock over enemy units a second before your banshees swoop in.

Still, like you I somewhat doubt their usefullness.

Firedragons I like now, they are always immune to weaponknockback, they are good at retreatkilling because of full accuracy on the move during the ability and it increases dps. As you say the are amazing WITH Warpspiders, they can melt a Wraitlord during a Haywiregrenade. +30% rangeddamage reduction is something other units can only dream off.

They are a bit too slow though. How to use them? Gates! Honestly, if you use them with Webwaygates they are amazing. Farseer especially with speedbuff + infiltration. Their antiinfantry capabilitys are also really nice, for example against ASM. When ASM jump them, they don't get knockedback and can run away a bit, then start shooting the from the banshees supressed unit. I think for their Price, their dps and tankiness is just good, even in a infantry fight. The AV capabilitys seem more like a nice bonus on top of it, that keeps enemy walkers away and can catch enemy tanks/transports offguard.
Also, I never tried it, but the Warlock has a Wargear now that gives an allied unit +3 speed. That could be really good on Firedragons combined with the Rangeddamge reduction global (does that stack?) against enemy vehicles. They can't shoot you down, they can't run away, and you are faster than their melee.
But yeah, generally Gates to catch the enemy vehicle offguard, or while its retreating with half health from your Brightlance. I think you NEED a Brightlance with Firedragons.

[Kvn]

Thank you for taking the time to reply, but I would like to point out that I'm not a new player. I've been playing Elite since it came out, and I'm well aware of all the changes that have been made, both buffs and nerfs, to these units.

The suppression is pointless as it requires you to spend 600 rec 30 power plus the cost of the upgrades on a worse version of the GWT that can't do anything past T1. I honestly never understood why people acted like it was so godly on the forums as in practice it really doesn't have much of an impact.Maybe in 3v3 it has some merit that I'm not aware of, but it's just begging for an early transport rush in 1v1.

Kinetic Pulse damage is also largely irrelevant as you should never use it just to damage guardsmen and such. It's pretty much the only thing Rangers have anymore to counter setup teams now that their damage output is so low. The one and only time you should use it for damage is when snagging that 5hp retreating squad that's just out of range of your army.

Also, having had the Kinetic Pulse used against me extensively, I can safely say that it isn't all that scary for killing purposes. Even unupgraded Eldar infantry just gets back up after being hit, with only a small sliver of health missing.

Other than that, it is a heavily defensive ability for saving units from enemy melee/high damage units. Sure it can be used to set up grenade throws but that just means you've gone and bought battle equipment on your DA in T1, setting yourself even further back in the tech race after purchasing Rangers. Not to mention that it relies almost entirely on your opponent not reacting, which is never something you can count on.

The KB immunity on Dragons is nice, but even with their damage resist they bleed you like crazy. They suffer from the same thing as Dark Reapers and Seer Council in that their health pools simply aren't enough for the resist to matter that much (without the crippling weakness that Reapers have to plasma/power melee/ etc.). Since they have no way of sneaking up on an opponent, you really can't hope to get them in unharmed.

Their retreat killing potential is no better than Tzeench CSM, and at times is significantly worse thanks to how close they need to get in order to shoot.

I'm well aware of the utility of gates. I've been using them for a long time. However, they're not all that good with Fire Dragons for a few simple reasons. One: ambushing the vehicle only works if you've got more than one av source. Seeing as you purchased Dragons, you probably don't. All the other guy's going to do is drive in the opposite direction (or turn and smack them in the case of a walker) and be perfectly safe. Two: a good player will either destroy, or at least keep tabs on open gates. You get maybe one or two pushes through it before it becomes inoperable. Three: it's not that big a surprise. Since Dragons have no way of masking their presence, they really can't sneak up on things.

I'm not sure where you're getting the dps vs infantry from, as in my experience they get outshot by everything excluding termagaunts and scouts. Simply put, they aren't designed to be good vs infantry. They technically can damage them, but so can M-kit Storm Troopers. Neither are particularly good at it though. Even if you manage to force the other squad off, you'll have bled a fair number of models, instantly making it not worth the fighting thanks to the way the Eldar eco works.

I would disagree with keeping walkers away. If anything, it forces them closer to flat out smash the Dragons, as those are the only things that will likely be threatening them in early T2. Later you might get out Warpspiders to make them think twice, but then you run into the same problem of spending two to three times as much money to counter a single vehicle.

You are correct in saying that you need a Brightlance, but if you get one, there's no point in getting the Dragons. They become redundant the moment the vehicle is dead, and then you've got not one, but two mostly useless squads taking up pop and upkeep. The Brightlance alone does everything the Dragons do at further range, with less investment, and give less bleed. Even comes with the scorch ability to help out against infantry.

I will say again that I don't think it's right to have a unit be entirely dependent on buying another unit just to fulfill its basic role (with the exception of support units of course). Since Dragons are av, one would expect them to be good at killing vehicles when they're not. They end up being an exceedingly expensive support av option. Quite frankly, if you can afford to dump resources into them, more often than not it's because you're already way ahead. At least that's been my experience with them. Even their recent buffs really don't help their effectiveness all that much.

[Cyris]

No strong feelings on Rangers yet, but Firedragons are super potent right now. I think borderline OP, but my personal jury is out so far.

In short, I completely disagree on the return on investment on them. They dominate T2 transports and most T2 walkers, and then provide highly mobile anti-infantry (and gen) damage. All of this comes for a low price, and the unit itself is hard to stop. The one drawback is of course the weapon range (28) but this is largely mitigated by their speed and other advantages. Consider the fully upgraded price at 445/45. For this you get:

1070 health squad that has -30% incoming damage (equivalent to heavy armor) but receives no bonus damage from plasma AND resists fire damage
6.5 movepseed and fire on the move, allowing near immunity to melee and solid chase
High resistance to crowd control - immunity to knockdowns and 200 courage
84 melta dps, which is both anti all and anti-garrison
An ability that increases damage by around 40% and grants 100% fotm

So, you can't CC them, they outgun other ranged infantry at cost, you can't melee them, they fire on the move and they are relatively cheap. There is no damage type they are vulnerable to and they counter T2 vehicles HARD.

[Kvn]

With respect Cyris, I'd have to disagree.

They might have the KB immunity and damage resist, but as stated above they still drop dead at a stiff breeze thanks to their low health pool, bleeding Eldar eco heavily. Against transports they get kited to eternity. Walkers turn around and punch them to death. Tanks just outshoot them so long as they've got a touch of repair support.

This isn't just me being bad at the game, as I've had them used against me fairly frequently. As stated previously, the only game I've played in where they've actually done anything is when Tex used them to take out my Falcon. In a previous game against another player, my Falcon proceeded to wipe out a Fire Dragon squad straight up because it had some repairs from friendly DA. I'd stopped microing it simply because the game was essentially over, expecting to lose it, only to raise an eyebrow when it gunned them down in quick order. It was level two by that point, but even so it still shouldn't have been able to rip them apart so quickly in my opinion.

I'm not sure why anyone would consider them OP as they get very little done. Sure, if they get in they'll hit hard, but the problem is that they will almost never make it in. You need to buy something like Warpspiders to snare, or a Brightlance to do the heavy lifting. Even if the vehicle does go down, suddenly you've spent that much money on a unit with no real benefit against infantry. Even with Wraithguard getting beaten silly by the nerfhammer, I still find them doing work where the Dragons should, but don't, excel regardless of which commander I'm playing at the time.

Is there some secret technique to using them that I'm missing? I am genuinely curious to know how it is that some can consider a unit I've rarely witnessed pay for themselves OP.

[Asmon]

I don't understand why you think kinetic shot + grenade combo requires your opponent not to react in time. This combo is deadly for anything and cannot be avoided (or with a mere 10% damage reduction if you hit retreat). The only issue I see with new rangers is that Eldar T1 only has 3 core units now as rangers alone are weak. But it is Eldar playstyle to have units rely on one another, and though they're a bit too expensive, rangers still do ok in their support role. They basically became heavier on micro, for you cannot only shoot and still win (which was stupid). I'm not fond of them atm but at least they're rewarding in a good way.

Firedragons are OP in my book. I've always found every melta squad amongst any army to be OP, and Firedragons are no exception. It is likely that you don't remember how it was in the counter-vehicle department as Eldar before Firedragons. Fortunately they cannot infiltrate on their own, so you can maintain a decent degree of dignity and self-respect when you kill a transport/bloodcrusher with them.

Now I am disappointed. I thought you were gonna ask: Please equip my dark reapers with mean-looking scythes, thus perhaps they might make mass retreat noob opponents and finally be of use. Or : Grant my Firedragons a few haywire grenades so I can clearly say Warp Spiders are useless, since at the moment there's still a slight doubt about it.

And you didn't. Shame.

Feel free to submit replays with you trying to use Rangers and FD, I'm on holidays but I'll watch them when I'm back.

[An'grathul]

Well, my mileage with rangers varies wildly, they've been really useful in some games and an utter dissapointment in others. I'll acknowledge that I still need alot of practice on fancy things like kinetic + grenade micro in the midst of a fight.

Fire dragons on the other hand...
I absolutely love these guys to death. They're like the tack-on lovely anti-everything for the warlock and farseer, in my opinion. Put guide on them and they'll wreck vehicles, put enhance on them and they'll seek and destroy any tank or transport - these things not doing it for you? No problem! Cloak them and speed them up with farseer gates for even more lethality, give them speed buffs with warlock globals + cloak field armour! These guys have been working some serious magic for me by filling a niche that really needed filling; non-picky AV that still retains its usefulness after the vehicles are gone, heck, genbash away! Although they're not as good in every match up, i'd say these guys are great against SM in particular. It stands that in recent memory I haven't ever had these guys -not- deliver when I got them to kill something, be it a walker, transport or tank.

Disclaimer: with 'tank' I did not refer to the mighty Baneblade. You're gonna need more guns to deal with a Baneblade.

[Sub_Zero]

1070 health squad that has -30% incoming damage (equivalent to heavy armor) but receives no bonus damage from plasma AND resists fire damage
6.5 movepseed and fire on the move, allowing near immunity to melee and solid chase
High resistance to crowd control - immunity to knockdowns and 200 courage
84 melta dps, which is both anti all and anti-garrison
An ability that increases damage by around 40% and grants 100% fotm

When I put all these things together and correlated it with their cost I thought "DA FUCK, MAN? On what level is it balanced?!"

P. S. No wonder that I lately saw 2x fire dragons too often

[Kvn]

I don't understand why you think kinetic shot + grenade combo requires your opponent not to react in time. This combo is deadly for anything and cannot be avoided (or with a mere 10% damage reduction if you hit retreat).

In my experience, I've had a surprising number of opponents react to it by forcing melee on my DA squad that is going for the grenade. Since Kinetic Pulse does FF, it will end up knocking over my own squad (or at least the lead models which are usually the ones who go for the throw) and cause the attempt to fail. Besides that, they have had some moderate success with turning all guns on my DAs when it becomes clear what they're going for. While not perfectly reliable, I can't tell you how many times the model throwing the grenade has died just before getting it off, causing the animation to restart in a continuous chain of almost-but-not-quites until I had to retreat them. Though, obviously, that relies on the opponent having a large amount of firepower in the field at the time.

It is likely that you don't remember how it was in the counter-vehicle department as Eldar before Firedragons.

I do. I try not to, but I do. Back when the Brightlance was a separate unit entirely and the standard was relying on Banshee Exarch plus Warpsider grenades. It was an incredibly painful time to suffer from vehicle rushes for me as I wasn't nearly as good at micro as I am now, so I tended to get crushed pretty hard. Now however, Eldar have a significant number of light av options that all stack up with each other to help dissuade vehicles from being as scary as before. When compared to the relatively easy access of things like Wraithguard, Wraithlord w/Brightlance, Falcon, etc. that have all been buffed in the mod, Fire Dragons really don't seem to stack up as the hard av unit that they were designed to be. If it were still retail style where the av was in short supply I could see them being useful, but here, it's much harder to picture.

Fortunately they cannot infiltrate on their own, so you can maintain a decent degree of dignity and self-respect when you kill a transport/bloodcrusher with them.

Bad experiences with Storm Troopers I take it?

I find that BLoodcrushers are perhaps the one thing that Dragons can reliably threaten without the need for an entirely different squad purchased for the sole purpose of making them work. As I'd mentioned, a lot of my experience, playing with or against Dragons, has seen them get kited forever with things like transports. Sure bad pathing could come into play to screw someone over and let them get the kill, but that isn't something that can be relied on to justify their current setup.

Now I am disappointed. I thought you were gonna ask: Please equip my dark reapers with mean-looking scythes, thus perhaps they might make mass retreat noob opponents and finally be of use. Or : Grant my Firedragons a few haywire grenades so I can clearly say Warp Spiders are useless, since at the moment there's still a slight doubt about it.

Heh, as amusing as it would be to see Dark Reapers running around with giant scythes like murder-happy Death Jesters, my goal isn't to try and get these units buffed/nerfed or whatever. I'm trying to piece together why they're designed the way they are as, to my eyes so far, I don't see the purpose they serve. Also, I find that Warpsiders do a lot of work in Eldar vs Ork games as long as they have 2-3 DAs to soak up fire.

I don't have replays right now since my schedule is pretty booked at the moment, but when I get the chance to play more I'll do what I can to focus on trying to use those units and see if I cant get some vids that demonstrate what I'm talking about.

[Dark Riku]

I'm a little confused here Kvn. You come here asking for opinions and views from other people but you seem to have your own, set in stone, opinion on everything already. What exactly are you trying to find here?

To share my opinion in short:
Rangers still full fill the same roles as they used to before just in a less infuriating way and with some changes.
Biggest sight/detection range in the game, kinetic pulse to stall, do damage or setting up whatever, cloaking your army for whatever, putting pressure on your opponent so they have to make a move or back off, able to peel of HP from heroes, the new suppression effect, etc.

On Fire Dragons:
I've seen them used to scary result for the non fire dragon user.
There is nothing wrong with having to use synergy between units. For example, a lascannon alone will also not deal with a dreadnought or BC.

[Lichtbringer]

I'm a little confused here Kvn. You come here asking for opinions and views from other people but you seem to have your own, set in stone, opinion on everything already. What exactly are you trying to find here?

I also had that thought^^.

But, on the note of this thread, Kvn what do you think about Darkreapers? If you don't find Firedragons usefull, but don't mention Darkreapers I wonder if you know how to make Darkreapers work?

[Cyris]

These guys have been working some serious magic for me by filling a niche that really needed filling; non-picky AV that still retains its usefulness after the vehicles are gone, heck, genbash away!

This is the core of what is bugging me about the unit. It's a full on dedicated AV option that can handle some T2 vehicles alone, but retains a large amount of potency in your composition if the vehicle threat is dealt with. This is all compounded by it's relatively low cost and what I see as a general lack of counters (it resists CC, ranged damage, flame, fires on the move and is faster then melee). By contrast, a melta-stormtrooper squad can be detected, bleeds real fast, is slow and can be both suppressed and knocked down.

As a side, I was all in favor of Firedragon buffs as they were happening. The unit had been lackluster for a while, but I think maybe it's swung a little too far. We'll see! I wanna play as and against it more, but that's where I'm at for now.

[Kvn]

I'm a little confused here Kvn. You come here asking for opinions and views from other people but you seem to have your own, set in stone, opinion on everything already. What exactly are you trying to find here?

Maybe I haven't been expressing my goals all that well, but what I'm looking to do is to understand why these units are the way that they are. I don't necessarily believe that either needs any major overhaul, but both feel rather subpar to me in their function, or flat out redundant in the case of Dragons, which strikes me as odd given that so many people are declaring them overpowered. As far as having my views set in stone, I don't think that to be the case, but the arguments I've heard so far have pretty much run directly contrary to what I've seen both in my games and in the casts of high-level players up to this point. For an example, everyone keeps saying Dragons do great against infantry. I have never seen them do anything decent against infantry that wasn't incredibly weakened to begin with, ill suited for dealing with other infantry, or just flat out ignoring the Dragons and letting them shoot them. The Autarch's fusion gun and Storm Troopers with meltas also can do damage to infantry, but none of the three really are good at it, which is to be expected as they're all anti-vehicle oriented.

Another is that people keep referring to their durability through the 30% damage resist. I'd like to take a moment to point out that DAs + Exarch have a similar health pool (albeit with one additional model) and a 20% damage resist. I don't think that any race has trouble bleeding models off of them despite this inherent buff to their survivability. Even Seer Council die in droves despite having 500hp per Warlock, and the 20% resist aura that affects them as well as allies.

Rangers still full fill the same roles as they used to before just in a less infuriating way and with some changes.
Biggest sight/detection range in the game, kinetic pulse to stall, do damage or setting up whatever, cloaking your army for whatever, putting pressure on your opponent so they have to make a move or back off, able to peel of HP from heroes, the new suppression effect, etc.

I can understand the irritation of losing models in that way, but isn't that the point of a harassment unit such as Rangers? To damage the opponent's economy and generally help you keep up/pull ahead in that regard while being heavily punishing to you if miss-microed? I personally haven't found their new suppression to be useful as it needs two fully upgraded squads of what amounts to a worse Guardian Weapon's Team. Their damage isn't all that scary, they can only pin one squad at a time, and they have no use in the later game beyond scouting/back capping. The Holo Fields are nice, but too situational to really be relied heavily on as, even if the opponent doesn't have detection for whatever reason, he can generally know where your cloaked guys are going to be thanks to the Rangers announcing that they're putting down a field. Unless that was changed of course, in which case, please ignore my issue with the Holo Fields.

seen them used to scary result for the non fire dragon user.
There is nothing wrong with having to use synergy between units. For example, a lascannon alone will also not deal with a dreadnought or BC.

Don't get me wrong, I certainly don't want to see them soloing Leman Russ battle tanks with no support whatsoever. That would just be broken as heck. My concern with using them lies in the fact that they can't catch most vehicles thanks to having no approach mechanism, snare, etc. and the vehicles they can catch (namely, walkers, tanks, and superheavies) will just turn around and kill them. Their close range also makes melee units a really nasty opponent that can bleed them quite heavily. What ends up happening is that you need to invest in something like Warpspiders in order to make the Dragons work, leaving you with roughly 900/100 spent on countering a 300/80-ish transport and essentially locking yourself out of T3 thanks to the bleed and upkeep that comes from both squads. One or the other would be fine, but in conjunction, your opponent will punish you hard by prioritizing killing them. With that kind of situation, I'm left wondering why I wouldn't just get more anti-all troops like the Falcon, Wraithlord, or Wraithguard to kill the opposing vehicle for less cost and better field presence.

If it were just me not having success with them, I'd chock it up to me being not good enough. If it were just not witnessing them doing well in replays of any kind (with the recent one of Hans being the only exception I can recall) I'd assume it was just variance in the games. If it was just the fact that they don't seem to work all that well against me so far, I'd likely assume I was either getting lucky, or my opponents weren't using them to the best of their ability. When all three of those occur, and people are straight up calling them a brokenly powerful super-unit as they have been on the forums recently, I end up very confused.

Maybe I've just been playing with/against the wrong people, or maybe there's something going on that I'm not seeing. Right now, I don't have any real replays to support my claims as I don't typically save them, but when I get the chance I'll be looking to do more games using them and seeing whether what I've said holds true or not. When I get some that hopefully are meaningful, I'll post them here and let you be the judge.

In the meantime, I've begun to wonder if maybe I'm doing something unintentional that's helping me out. Does this general build order strike you as being anti-Dragon in any way, or am I just off of it?

T1

Farseer Hero
2 x DA
1 x Banshee
Node
1 x Shuri platform
Aspect on Banshees
Gens as able
Another Shuri if they go heavy T1

Tech to T2
Falcon/Wraithlord
Autarch if I need the support and field presence

Wargear when/if needed

And it goes from there. This probably has nothing to do with it, but I figured I'd put it up just in case I was blindly doing something to counter them that I didn't notice.

As far as Reapers go, I think they're a very situational, if not all that impressive unit. They only really do one thing, but they do a decent job of it. Namely, when used in conjunction with Time Field to kill off HI since they don't suffer from being shot back during that period. Now I know this makes me look like a hypocrite given that I've been criticizing the Dragons for needing to rely on another full purchase to fulfill their role, but hear me out for a second. Mainly what I would think to get Reapers against would be a heavy infantry based build from the opponent, with little to no melee/vehicle forces. Particularly, something like a tac-blob topped off with Terminators. In this situation, Reapers plus Time Field are a lesser investment than the opponent's troops that they'd counter, and will do a good job of bleeding enemy models (until the field wears off or he counterattacks with a new squad). In this sense, you're spending less or equal (instead of 2-3 times as much) to counter your opponent's build. While they're usually not my first purchase, I've had some success with them at times. At least when they don't get insta-gibbed by Plasma Devs. At least, at least, when said Devs didn't just get a lucky blind shot fired into the fog of war... Times like those make me sad.

Anyway, TL:DR version. I'll be doing more research into Dragons and such and hopefully will bring some replays. Don't know when I'll be able to get the games in, but I will look to find some that better demonstrate or disprove what I've been saying. As for Reapers, I find them all right at what they do, but very, very niche.

Sorry for the huge wall of text. Didn't expect this one to go this long when I sat down to write it.

[An'grathul]

If it were just me not having success with them, I'd chock it up to me being not good enough. If it were just not witnessing them doing well in replays of any kind (with the recent one of Hans being the only exception I can recall) I'd assume it was just variance in the games. If it was just the fact that they don't seem to work all that well against me so far, I'd likely assume I was either getting lucky, or my opponents weren't using them to the best of their ability. When all three of those occur, and people are straight up calling them a brokenly powerful super-unit as they have been on the forums recently, I end up very confused.

I think you should chalk it up to them only reaching this level of quality after their changes in 4.2., so it's natural you won't see them perform spectacularly in many replays yet; I imagine many Eldar players haven't yet gotten around to trying them out extensively. I only started playing Elite mod about two weeks before the change hit and remember that every time I tried to make Fire dragons work they ended up dissapointing me and bleeding me out without dealing with the threat. Being less experienced is one part of it, but after the change I've found them massively more useful. I think that given some time, you'll see plenty more replays like Hans's where they're used to great effect. Until then I really suggest playing around with them more yourself, some global or hero support really make them come into their own and in their current state I think they're far less of a niche unit than you might think.

[Dark Riku]

@Kvn, in short:

Look up some good Eldar play with Fire Dragons, like the one you mentioned from Hans, or keep trying to use them when the opportunity is right.
They are not going to hunt down vehicles on their own, just the same as most other AV squads.

About the durability, Fire Dragons are more durable than other Eldar units and seer council models definitely do not die in droves.
Bleeding too much has to do with other factors, being outplayed, wrong positioning, wrong use, ...

I'm kinda going to repeat myself on the Rangers. They still perform their harassment. Just not in the frustrating way they used to do it.
Keep in mind that harassing is only one of the many things that rangers can do.

[Kvn]

Look up some good Eldar play with Fire Dragons, like the one you mentioned from Hans, or keep trying to use them when the opportunity is right.

They are not going to hunt down vehicles on their own, just the same as most other AV squads.

That's kind of the point of this forum. There are no replays other than the one I've mentioned where Dragons work out. I am currently in the middle of trying them out more extensively. While they have been performing better than expected (farsight into gates at gens early into T2 for a quick bash has been pretty nasty so long as the red is there) results have still been less than impressive in the general front. Haven't played enough games with them to get a final verdict though. Will have more to say on that when I finish trying them out.

My issue wasn't that they didn't hunt down vehicles on their own, but that they had so much trouble even threatening vehicles when the opposing player was paying attention without needing to invest in an expensive means of rendering them helpless. I apologize if I didn't make that clear earlier.

About the durability, Fire Dragons are more durable than other Eldar units and seer council models definitely do not die in droves.
Bleeding too much has to do with other factors, being outplayed, wrong positioning, wrong use, ...

While I greatly appreciate the help you've been providing, I'm not new to the game. I understand what causes bleed, and the reasoning behind it. I use the Seer Council extensively myself, so I know from long experience that they do bleed quite heavily. Expensive models that are very fragile (in comparison to others of their tier) and are still fully vulnerable to all forms of crowd control means they can suffer from bleeding against most army compositions. I want to be clear that I wasn't calling them weak though. They're a unit I've had a lot of success with, but they're not durable in any sense. When playing against someone who uses their counters well, they do, quite often, die in droves.

[Dark Riku]

My issue wasn't that they didn't hunt down vehicles on their own, but that they had so much trouble even threatening vehicles when the opposing player was paying attention without needing to invest in an expensive means of rendering them helpless. I apologize if I didn't make that clear earlier.

It was clear, but this holds true for about any AV squad.

When playing against someone who uses their counters well, they do, quite often, die in droves.

Same thing here. Any squad that has their counters used on them will make them "die in droves".

[Kvn]

It was clear, but this holds true for about any AV squad.

I feel like I'm repeating myself at this point, but I'll try to explain my reasoning once again. The problem is that Dragons don't threaten the vehicle they were purchased to counter without investing in another heavy purchase. Lascannons will set up and create a danger area. If a light vehicle goes in there, they'll die in 2-3 shots. This creates a wall of "don't pass this point or you will die" effectively zoning off the area and forcing the enemy vehicle to play defensively, or forcing your opponent to have a jump troop dedicate itself to tying up the Lascannon. Tankbustas and Plague Marines have a similar function in that they can pressure a vehicle with their range as well as their high burst from the barrage, and durability respectively. Plagues aren't usually enough to scare most vehicles alone, but they have added perks such as snare, heal on death, and damage over time, etc. added on to compensate. Storm Troopers will also force the opponent to be very defensive with their infiltration as well as their melta bomb, and can pick off an isolated vehicle quite quickly with little chance for it to escape unless they have some other unit move in to save it.

Dragons don't do this. Thanks to their short range, the opposing vehicle has a much larger operating window where they can move and fight. Due to the lack of an approach mechanism, Dragons will usually be spotted and shot down, or tied up in melee before they can start shooting. Lack of snare means that even if they do get in close, the target can usually just drive away and be safe.

While no one squad is a be-all-end-all vehicle counter, they typically can put on decent to heavy amounts of pressure. The problem with Dragons' design in my eyes is that it doesn't allow for that. As I've stated previously, I'm currently in the process of testing them out, so I don't have a perfectly finalized view yet. When I do, I'll have a more solid argument for or against them.

Same thing here. Any squad that has their counters used on them will make them "die in droves".

That isn't what I meant. Terminators, when used well, will never die in droves no matter how many counters the opponent has thanks to their sheer durability and teleport for escape. Nobz when used well will never die in droves thanks to their durability and frenzy ability. Flash Gitz when used well will never die in droves thanks to their range and damage output. Seer Council, no matter how well you use them, will drop models very quickly when your opponent has a means of countering them, much like Banshees. Will the previously mentioned squads necessarily have a large impact when countered properly? No, but neither will they hurt your economy all that badly unless you make a mistake. Seer Council will, as they have comparatively low hp, and no real means of fighting against suppression, knockdown, etc. This isn't a bad thing, as their damage output is quite high to compensate by letting them kill quickly, but it means that they bleed heavily even when used to the best of their ability against an opponent who knows how to fight them. That's one of the main themes of Eldar melee infantry insomuch as they lose a lot of models even when used properly, but bleed the opponent as well to make up for it.

[Dark Riku]

I'll repeat myself too then

Dragons do create a danger zone as well, opponents can't just run in their transport on your shury position to unload a melee squad for example.
Combined with Eldar trickery the enemy sure has to pay attention as well.
They can come under infiltration with Rangers, Farseer gates, warlock upgrade, etc.
They can come from flanks with any gate, warp spider shenanigans, etc.

A snare/stun on termies combined with massive damage like a manticore to name one example can easily kill terminators as they can't retreat and their TP won't be available during those things. So yeah, when their counters are used effectively they will just straight up "die in droves." Same for the Nobs/flashgits, if you flank them, surprise them, get them in a bad position or whatever, they sure as hell will lose models. The seer council will not lose many models when you use them well. Because otherwise you wouldn't be using them well.

[Lichtbringer]

I'll repeat myself too then

Dragons do create a danger zone as well, opponents can't just run in their transport on your shury position to unload a melee squad for example.
Combined with Eldar trickery the enemy sure has to pay attention as well.
They can come under infiltration with Rangers, Farseer gates, warlock upgrade, etc.
They can come from flanks with any gate, warp spider shenanigans, etc.

A snare/stun on termies combined with massive damage like a manticore to name one example can easily kill terminators as they can't retreat and their TP won't be available during those things. So yeah, when their counters are used effectively they will just straight up "die in droves." Same for the Nobs/flashgits, if you flank them, surprise them, get them in a bad position or whatever, they sure as hell will lose models. The seer council will not lose many models when you use them well. Because otherwise you wouldn't be using them well.

I wish Eldar had a Stun... but thats a whole different topic.

Also something to add, Firedragons get still heavily disrupted by melee. If the vehicle doesn't reverse, you can't move to it, and then you get meleed. Basically every meleeunit still counters them.
I think for Firedragons you really have to combine them with Gates basically, then force the enemy to retreat and appear with the Dragons in the Retreatpath of the Vehicle.
I don't know, I am somewhat sceptical to Firedragons again, I tried to use them more, it didn't quite work out how I wanted. That doesn't mean anything though, and thats why I invite everyone to post there replays here, where Firedragons shine. I think thats also what Kvn is looking for.

[Asmon]

I don't have replays but I definitively did wreck people with Firedragons. You can hardly go wrong anyway with any full melta squad. Even the mere gates+genbash already benefits you.

[hiveminion]

Also something to add, Firedragons get still heavily disrupted by melee. If the vehicle doesn't reverse, you can't move to it, and then you get meleed. Basically every meleeunit still counters them.

With Fleet or Swift Movement Fire Dragons can just sprint through melee stuff without getting tied up to get the kill on a fleeing vehicle.

Fire Dragons are pretty ridiculous at the moment with passive immunity to every form of knockback.

[Lichtbringer]

Also something to add, Firedragons get still heavily disrupted by melee. If the vehicle doesn't reverse, you can't move to it, and then you get meleed. Basically every meleeunit still counters them.

With Fleet or Swift Movement Fire Dragons can just sprint through melee stuff without getting tied up to get the kill on a fleeing vehicle.

Fire Dragons are pretty ridiculous at the moment with passive immunity to every form of knockback.

Yes, but if the vehicle simply stops, they get tied up. Also, Firedragons don't have a Movementspeed ability^^.

[Dark Riku]

Yeah they only have 6.5 base speed ...

[Kvn]

Dragons do create a danger zone as well, opponents can't just run in their transport on your shury position to unload a melee squad for example.

Actually, they can so long as they're careful. Dragons have such short range that the transport can swoop in, offload, and be out of reach before the Dragons get off more than a volley or two. Since they have no means of snaring movement, or catching up beyond their above average footspeed, the vehicle will more than likely get away unless pathing screws them over.

They can come under infiltration with Rangers

Please read the issue I've stated above with Ranger Holo Fields.

They can come from flanks with any gate

Please read the issue I've stated above with Dragons flanking.

warp spider shenanigans

Please read the issue above I've stated with having to invest in both Warpspiders and Dragons.

As far as the Farseer gates go, I've had mild success with them so far in my tests. Not for the infiltrate ability, as the enemy's army will typically always have detection of some form against Eldar, but rather as a means of getting them to rush the gens in early T2. If the opponent is aware of something being up however, this strategy falls flat.

A snare/stun on termies combined with massive damage like a manticore to name one example can easily kill terminators as they can't retreat and their TP won't be available during those things. So yeah, when their counters are used effectively they will just straight up "die in droves." Same for the Nobs/flashgits, if you flank them, surprise them, get them in a bad position or whatever, they sure as hell will lose models.

That's a great way of countering them as Inquisitor, however, most commanders don't have such a hard anti-superheavy infantry counter. I'm not saying that they're invincible, but in the grand scheme of things, dropping a single model from Terminators that are well microed, no matter how many counters you have, isn't an easy task. Especially not if the opponent is playing Apothecary. Nobz typically lose models when overextended, which goes with when I put emphasis on the 'well microed' part. Gitz typically won't die unless the opponent keeps them in the fight too long and the lines get pushed back to them, or if you manage to take your opponent off guard. Again, referring to the 'well microed' part of my earlier statement.

The seer council will not lose many models when you use them well. Because otherwise you wouldn't be using them well.

Then it would appear that nobody has ever used Banshees well. Both they and Seer Council are designed to lose models as a trade off for their damage output. If you can support them properly with spiritual rites, channeling runes, etc. they will drop less models, but they will still lose quite a lot. This I can say with confidence as it holds true both in my own games as well as in all the high-level replays that I've watched.

But back to the main topic.

@Asmon. I'm not saying the full-melta is bad by any stretch of the imagination. What I'm saying is that it alone doesn't make them a great unit. Nor does it allow them to fulfill their role as a reasonably expensive anti vehicle unit given the lack of ways for them to actually threaten the vehicle beyond their damage type. While I know this may be getting redundant, I'd like to stress that I'm still in the process of testing them and have yet to reach a final opinion. So far, using them in game has largely supported what I've said, but that may or may not change as I haven't played enough for a definite answer yet.

@Lichtbringer. Exactly. As has been pointed out earlier, Dragons are very vulnerable to melee.

@Hiveminion. Fire Dragons don't have fleet. They have a different ability that gives them 100% fire on the move, but it doesn't come with a speed boost. As for the Warlock global, one of the points I've been trying to make is that I don't believe a unit should be entirely dependent on another unit/your hero choice simply to fulfill their basic function.

[Dark Riku]

Just because you bought a counter doesn't actually mean you're going to instantly kill the thing you want it to counter.

Issue about Rangers red and point still stands as there is no issue.

Issue about flanking ignored as there is no issue.

Read the synergy part again and I'm talking about the warp spider.

Allow me to firmly disagree on the terminator part. Every race has access to hard hitting anti (S)HI.
Anything loses models when overextended! That's part of the definition of overextending in DoW2!

Shees are not designed to lose models at all. Heretics are designed to lose models.


Kvn, this is just going in circles...
According to you whenever anything is well microed it does well except when Eldar units are well microed, then they still perform bad.
That just looks like bias to me.

Units rely on synergy. This is DoW2, it's how this game works.

[Kvn]

Just because you bought a counter doesn't actually mean you're going to instantly kill the thing you want it to counter.

Issue about Rangers red and point still stands as there is no issue.

Issue about flanking ignored as there is no issue.

Read the synergy part again and I'm talking about the warp spider.

Allow me to firmly disagree on the terminator part. Every race has access to hard hitting anti (S)HI.
Anything loses models when overextended! That's part of the definition of overextending in DoW2!

Shees are not designed to lose models at all. Heretics are designed to lose models.

Kvn, this is just going in circles...
According to you whenever anything is well microed it does well except when Eldar units are well microed, then they still perform bad.
That just looks like bias to me.

Units rely on synergy. This is DoW2, it's how this game works.

Riku. I have a lot of respect for you as a player, and as one that is almost certainly better than me in just about every aspect of this game, but please. Actually read the stuff I'm writing. I never asked for them to be able to insta-gib vehicles. I don't want that at all. What I'm asking is why they're designed to be av when the don't put pressure on without demanding another costly investment.

Issue with Rangers does in fact stand. They announce for the other player to hear when and where they're placing down their holo fields. Even if the opponent doesn't have detection, they'll have reasonably good idea of where the field is, thus letting them know where your Dragons are likely to be, thus defeating the purpose of using the field.

Issue with flanking does stand. Either you don't have another av source, in which case the opponent drives forwards instead of backwards, or you do and you've spent a lot more money on countering the opponents vehicle than they spent on actually getting it out.

Warpsiders have the same issue. Roughly 900/100+ spent to counter a transport at around half the cost.

Yes. I know. That's literally what I said. Overextending units causes you to lose models regardless of the squad. Note, when microed properly units such as Nobz,Terminators, will not be dropping models or bleeding nearly as much as something like the Seer Council simply because they're so much better at tanking damage and have much easier access to means of countering crowd control.

Shees are absolutely designed to lose models. That's the point. If the weren't they'd be brokenly overpowered as they'd be killing off things like Tacs with no losses. As it is, you can expect to lose two or three models on average in a moderately sized T1 engagement as that's what they're designed to do.

Never once did I say that Eldar squads were bad. Never once did I call them underpowered. Quite frankly, I consider them to be one of the best 1v1 races at the moment. I'm sorry, but please, seriously, read what I'm saying. I started this by flat out saying I didn't want buffs/nerfs/changes/whatever. I was only looking to understand what the purpose of these units was, and have constant contradicting information being thrown around from personal experience, other people's opinions, and visual evidence of their effectiveness.

Since this has gone around in circles and gotten off topic, let me reiterate exactly what the point of this was supposed to be.

Why would someone want to invest so much money into Dragons and the subsequent squads/upgrades needed to make them work when you can get equal or better value for less cost from things like Brightlances, Wraithguard, Falcons, Wraithlords, etc.?

I'm sorry if I sound frustrated, but this has been a real pain as things keep getting misinterpreted and I'm starting to regret making the first post to begin with.

[Dark Riku]

1) I do read the stuff you write, now read what I write.
Nobody else but Caeltos can tell you why they are designed the way they are. The rest of us can only make a guess.
Fire Dragons do put pressure on a vehicle without another investment. It's just your opinion that they seem not to.

2) The only ones announcing their infiltration to the whole world are scouts. Rangers do no such thing to my recollection.

3-4) Then don't spend so much to counter a single transport. Buy units appropriately.

5) Get your definitions straight then. A well microed unit means no or close to no model losses, no misplays, etc.
How exactly does a terminator squad counters crowd control? Stuns or snares. I would be very happy to know how to pull that one off.

6) What part of their design screams: "I'm supposed to lose models, it's the only way my unit is balanced." No part of them says that.
Yes, any squad loses models in combat, deal with it. It's not bleeding you dry, unless you use them wrong. I.e. not well microed.

7) You haven't literally said Eldar units are bad. But all of your statement point in that direction.
"Well microed X doesn't lose models but well microed X from Eldar does." Does that seem unbiased to you?

9) So much resources? Have you even taken a look at their cost?
Because they are better suited for the situation. They work in better synergy with your current army, etc.

10) You think this has been any fun for me? XD


You asked for opinions and you got them. Don't start arguing with them then? You seems to have your opinions set in stone already by doing so.