Tyranids vs Orks

[HiveSpirit]

In mrt17 i got owned by adila, i dont really know what i should have done to beat him in T1, QQ.
G1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HX3Oeqy ... e&t=5m13s#
G2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HX3Oeqy ... e&t=5m13s#

Thoughts:
-Clarification on spore mine detonation: http://dawnofwar.info/index.php?page=elite/spore_mines
Spore Detonation: A Spore Mine will instantly explode into a cloud of toxic gas that does 45 spore damage and 100 courage damage to all units in radius 12. 5 second cooldown.
Is it 45 spore damage per model? In my mind, 3-8 models makes up a unit.

-Clarification, whats the difference between warriors and hormagaunts charge?

-Painboys ability:
Speshul Git Sauce, 50 energy, Heal a target unit by 30 hp per model followed by a regeneration boost of 15 hp/s for 8 seconds. Range 25, cooldown 25 seconds. The effect can be improved by Stronga Git Sauce.
I assume that 15/s for 8s means per model (120hp over 8 sec per model?)?

Discussion:
-How can i take down sluggas and win the first encounter in t1?
I probably had the wrong focus/ mind set: "sluggas have to go down first". Engaging sluggas with spore turned out crap, plus sluggas gets the ranged damage reduction 50% when engaging those spore mines in CQC.
Spore mines could be used to retreat/ for sluggas engaging termagants, termagants should split up then and kite.
Spore mines might be better suited to chase the shootas.
Would it be better to split up my units, cap power first and get early devourer raveners (only 1 termagant unit?)?
Sluggas got 60 melee skill, hormagaunts 55, hormas will get speciald and lose models pretty fast which lowers theirs dmg output, losing a melee engagement..(which's why they should probaby chase shootas insteed...).
Mekboys wargear upgrade "Battery Pack" ability "'Ave A Taste'" makes it though, healing 150hp per model every 60s for just 40 energy (sluggas 100hp/model, shootas 120hp/model).
With an eventual Painboy healing 30hp/m and followed regeneration boost of 15 hp/s for 8 seconds, ability cd on 25s, commander armor single unit (no model lose reinforcement costs), what should i do to beat this?

Conclusions:
-I should use tyranids speed to my advantage; flank, kite, back and forth with ranged (all orks t1 speed 5, tyranids termagants 6, hormagaunts 6.5, RA 6, warrior 5.5, raveners 6.5).
-I should use tyranids 100% moving accuracy (yes termagants, warrior barbed strangler, not RA or ravener devourers) while movin to my advantage; try pull his units, avoid damage (ranged or flame) while reloading/cd.

[hiveminion]

First of all, if you're playing Lictor/Ravener Alpha, you pretty much have to get Warriors as your first T1.5 purchase, especially against Orks. Without Synapse your Gaunts stand almost no chance against Shoota/Slugga boyz.

Second, Hormagaunts will lose against Sluggas in a 1v1 fight. When Sluggas get Burnas, they'll be a ranged threat to Termagants as well. Generally, they should be your priority target in early engagements. You need the Warriors to initate the fight, knocking over Sluggas as they come in. Immediately follow it up with your Hormagaunts to do the actual damage. If the Sluggas don't have much support they will lose and might even get wiped. The problem is the Painboy. His heal is so strong it's pointless to engage the Sluggas while it's active. Try to Cripple them when they're under its effect, then engage again when it wears off.

Spore Mines/Strangler of course can work wonders, but I generally prefer keeping Warriors melee as it saves power. You need to manually target the Strangler as well if you want to catch Sluggas which can be a pain.

The main advantage Orks have over Nids is that they bash power much more easily with Burna Sluggas.

[PhatE]

In this instance the spore mines are really the first purchase. Using them aggressively is what you're after but their use is really for the really early game. A follow up with warriors and getting the barbed strangler is super effective. Even if you only get 1 mine off the amount of pressure that you exert is huge once sluggaz or whatever are suppressed.

Reason why it's effective is due to crippling poison and getting that endless slow that nids have.

Ravs are ok in this instance but the warriors should come before that.

[Tex]

barbed strangler is the bane of orks.

nuff said

[hiveminion]

That seems pretty simplistic.

Although effective against infantry blobs for obvious reasons, double upgraded Shoota Boyz can kill the lead Warrior model before the strangler shot hits them. You're also opening yourself up for Stormboyz, which are a tempting choice for Orks already as they counter 3/4 of Tyranid T2 units. I used to get the Strangler in T1 against Orks all the time but now if I get it at all I get it in T2 or later, usually to support a Tyrant Guard or Zoanthrope.

[Tex]

That makes no sense to me.

The strangler can shut down all things ork. Combine it with crippling poison and it shuts down their counter as well. Combine it with spore mines and you create "retreat or be wiped" situations.

??

[hiveminion]

You're assuming the Ork player is making no effort to shut down the Strangler brood with any of the following:

1. Stormboyz
2. Mekboy
3. Knob
4. Suppression from Lootas
5. Suppression from Big Shootas
6. Shoot 'em good

As I said the Strangler is a good choice but definitely not a must-buy.

[PhatE]

All of these are depending on the opening/hero but Tex is correct in this case. The barbed strangler is incredibly effective vs Orks and I'd say you'd be foolish not to get it unless you're planning something else entirely like adding ravs since you're going to be using the leap against sluggaz and jump on the shootas. It's an incredibly good purchase;

1. Stormboyz - A seriously double edged sword given their low melee skill of 60, horrid pathing, low HP and can still be crippling poisoned. But point goes to you since it's a valid counter. But that's being very generous given their track record in T1.
2. Mekboy - The LA really just has to wait for the teleport before they fleshhook. Doing it the other way around you may as well be giving up a shoota squad for free. The HT needs only the roar (rending talons I think?) which applies to the above as well. The rav is probably the easiest to fight for the Mek.
3. Knob - Have to be pretty crafty with the stun bomb but granted he can do some work as well. The knife's worth while too.
4. Suppression from Lootas - not really. BSWB tends to fire irrespective of whether you suppressed them first or not. They'll pretty much get a shot off anyway and they fire a lot faster than a loota can. More often than not lootas are in the shorter end of that fight.
5. Suppression from Big Shootas - more or less as above but with more micro you can overcome it a little. Using AWD also stops all damage coming from the squad so it doesn't snipe it as fast as you've described.
6. Shoot 'em good - too unreliable in my experience.

All in all, BSWB is really good (understatement). To dodge that your splits have to be immaculate since the AoE on that thing is ridiculous. I mentioned the endless slow for a reason. Crippling poison, Suppression, Ravs jumping for the disruption, spore mines are all invaluable tools to fighting Orks.

Not to mention that Nids tend to field bigger armies faster with more DPS given that to get that 4th squad you either sacrifice upgrades or it comes way later.

[Crewfinity]

^^I agree with Tex and PhatE. barbed stranglers are amazing against both ork melee and shootas, and along with crippling poison can punish any pushes made by sluggas or stormboyz. add raveners with devourers and it absolutely melts their low health squads all through T1.
then of course you can get zoans and venom brood in T2, and further exacerbate your range blob snowballing potential with their synapse buffs.

honestly I think nids are really stong in the matchup versus orks. crippling poison just does so much work that the ork player has to invest in battery pack or painboy to keep sluggas somewhat relevant in T1 combat.

[HiveSpirit]

For the games very first encounter tyranids and orks would probably have:

Orks....: mek+sluggas+shootas+shootas. 0 power used. 540req
Tyranids: RA+horma+terma+spore+terma. 5power used. 580req

And turn out in favor of tyranids:
Only using spores when sluggas get close (use that radius 12, tho which mine will explore if the get dragged out? good placement from start) to slow (minor damage as its per unit and not model?). Termas spread out, they might risk getting caught in the spore explosion, well good microing would be needed. When sluggas charge, "retreat/ fall back", apart from eachother, to kite. Pull back spore mines to not be killed and disallow sluggas the melee engaged ranged dmg debuff/ resistance. Spore/ hormas, could possibly chase shootas if sluggas persist on chasing termas. Or just fall back/ retreat and work down sluggas till they Xretreat. Wasting the spore mines could be a big loss/ waste of req/ time.

For the next engagement, options:

Tyranids:
RA - Crippling Talon 20power (does this work on the whole unit? or just per model?)
BSWB - 50 power
termagaunt - 1-2 toxin sacs, 15-30power
raveners - 40p, + devourers 15p (55p)?

Orks:
Mek - Battery Pack 20p
sluggas - burnas 15p
shootas - 1-2 big shootas, 20-40p
lootas - 30p
stormboyz - 35p
painboy - 30p

2nd engagement, ill get back to it later.
If tyranids would need more power units and upgrades, a resource advantage/ points, would be needed/ a must, to maintain the advantage.
BSWB could be a "cheap"/ natural replacement for spore mine (supression), mostly use it where and when its needed (not really maintaining the firing on the same unit/ spot).

[Sub_Zero]

I am also inclined to say that warriors with this option are probably the best asset against T1 orkz. But still I don't think that it is as bad for orks as some say here. I split shoota boyz (well as any pair of ranged units) and damage warriors as hard as I can trying to avoid being suppressed and that is totally possible since you can see what squad is going to be suppressed if you don't keep them in a blob and then you just move it backwards (it also mitigates damage from ranged tyranids a bit). And when shoota boyz die you lose their damage output and now you can use their ability, even twice, allowing your stormboyz to damage the warriors. And if at least one model dies then that is a big win for you since all these little tyranids will stop doing anything. And yes probably the best counter unit to ranged warriors is loota boyz. Now orks force tyranids to assault their positions. And don't forget about that invisibility! Though two tyranids' commanders are great at nullifying loota boyz (charge down their positions or simply disrupt one model). But you have 2 great sources of damage and detection against that, right? Talkin about fully upgraded shoota boyz.

[Crewfinity]

Is it 45 spore damage per model? In my mind, 3-8 models makes up a unit.

-Clarification, whats the difference between warriors and hormagaunts charge?

-Painboys ability:
Speshul Git Sauce, 50 energy, Heal a target unit by 30 hp per model followed by a regeneration boost of 15 hp/s for 8 seconds. Range 25, cooldown 25 seconds. The effect can be improved by Stronga Git Sauce.
I assume that 15/s for 8s means per model (120hp over 8 sec per model?)?

just realized nobody answered your questions

spore damage is per model. so with a good detonation you can deal up to 270 damage to a slugga unit (just under half their health). it also does friendly fire though, so be aware of that. there's also a cooldown on the ability, and if they spore mines are killed normally through ranged fire or melee, they dont detonate.

hormagaunts have a leap instead of a melee charge that deals some damage, i dont know how much.
warrior leap does damage and knockback, so common usage is to leap in with warriors, swarm the knocked down enemy unit with hormagaunts while you back off your warriors, then have your warriors leap in again after their melee leap cools down. this lets you dominate melee fights by letting the hormagaunts get in all their high-dps attacks under synapse while the enemy melee squad is on their ass.

git sauce health regen buff is indeed per model. it actually restores the same amount of HP per model overall as the battery pack heal does (150), but its better in T1 because ork units have less than 150 health each, and therefore get more utility out of the healing over time. its also just better in melee fights because there's less chance to bleed models before you get a big burst of healing.

For the games very first encounter tyranids and orks would probably have:

Orks....: mek+sluggas+shootas+shootas. 0 power used. 540req
Tyranids: RA+horma+terma+spore+terma. 5power used. 580req

And turn out in favor of tyranids:
Only using spores when sluggas get close (use that radius 12, tho which mine will explore if the get dragged out? good placement from start) to slow (minor damage as its per unit and not model?). Termas spread out, they might risk getting caught in the spore explosion, well good microing would be needed. When sluggas charge, "retreat/ fall back", apart from eachother, to kite. Pull back spore mines to not be killed and disallow sluggas the melee engaged ranged dmg debuff/ resistance. Spore/ hormas, could possibly chase shootas if sluggas persist on chasing termas. Or just fall back/ retreat and work down sluggas till they Xretreat. Wasting the spore mines could be a big loss/ waste of req/ time.

termas should be placed in cover to dissuade approach of sluggas. with the ravener you have more ranged dps than the ork does in first engagement, RA is amazing at bleeding ork models. you also have the edge in manueverability, with tunnels and hormas. try to cap the periphery of the map with your hormas while your ranged units force the fight in mid. ork shootas really dont get very scary until they have a good bit of power invested in them, so you should be trying to gain an early advantage in map control with the threat of spore mines (put them out of LOS until they're needed), and your RA in green cover as control mechanisms, and your higher speed as mobility advantage. 2 termagaunts can kite sluggas no problem until they get burnas, but for 15 power you can get toxin sacs which really shuts down ork melee, especially doubled up.

For the next engagement, options:

Tyranids:
RA - Crippling Talon 20power (does this work on the whole unit? or just per model?)
BSWB - 50 power
termagaunt - 1-2 toxin sacs, 15-30power
raveners - 40p, + devourers 15p (55p)?

Orks:
Mek - Battery Pack 20p
sluggas - burnas 15p
shootas - 1-2 big shootas, 20-40p
lootas - 30p
stormboyz - 35p
painboy - 30p

2nd engagement, ill get back to it later.
If tyranids would need more power units and upgrades, a resource advantage/ points, would be needed/ a must, to maintain the advantage.
BSWB could be a "cheap"/ natural replacement for spore mine (supression), mostly use it where and when its needed (not really maintaining the firing on the same unit/ spot).

I think as a nid player your first T1.5 purchase should be warriors ASAP, they let your melee win fights against sluggas with their knockback and they perform well vs shootas too. if the ork invests in shootas or lootas, get barbed strangler and then raveners. if he invests in melee, be it painboy and burna upgrades, or stormboys and battery pack, get toxin sacs, maybe another spore mine, and then barbed strangler. nid upgrades and T1.5 purchases are much more efficient than orks are, and the early warriors can really hurt, especially if you have tunnels up so they can be in the frey immediately.

Another way to punish ork melee with the RA is to go for his anti-melee builds, both of which are very powerful. he has a more melee-control oriented build with crippling talons, reinforced chitin, and burrow traps, all of which are available in T1. crippling talons slows enemy melee and does good damage, chitin debuffs enemy units further and gives knockback immunity, and the burrow traps can be planted right under the RA as melee units engage or walk past him and they explode almost immediately, doing 150 explosive damage and a 10 second stun. honestly the burrow traps are really enough of a melee deterrent on their own to T1 ork melee units, the stun lets you get in all your ranged damage at your leisure.

The RA's other melee build is to go for all out damage, where you get acid splatter, reinforced chitin, and toxic miasma (or damage synapse if you have a lot of supporting melee). not much to say here, you get almost 50 power melee dps, slow enemy units that melee you, and deal 30 piercing dps in radius 5. this build murders just about any light infantry melee unit in just a few seconds.

[Crewfinity]

I am also inclined to say that warriors with this option are probably the best asset against T1 orkz. But still I don't think that it is as bad for orks as some say here. I split shoota boyz (well as any pair of ranged units) and damage warriors as hard as I can trying to avoid being suppressed and that is totally possible since you can see what squad is going to be suppressed if you don't keep them in a blob and then you just move it backwards (it also mitigates damage from ranged tyranids a bit). And when shoota boyz die you lose their damage output and now you can use their ability, even twice, allowing your stormboyz to damage the warriors. And if at least one model dies then that is a big win for you since all these little tyranids will stop doing anything. And yes probably the best counter unit to ranged warriors is loota boyz. Now orks force tyranids to assault their positions. And don't forget about that invisibility! Though two tyranids' commanders are great at nullifying loota boyz (charge down their positions or simply disrupt one model). But you have 2 great sources of damage and detection against that, right? Talkin about fully upgraded shoota boyz.

splitting shootas is definitely necessary so that only one gets suppressed, but focusing on the warriors lets the hormagaunts approach with impunity. at least one unit is going to be getting suppressed by the barbed strangler, and if it comes out quick you wont have full upgrades on your shootas so they wont be able to deal with it in that first engagement very well, especially if you get stormboyz instead of shoota upgrades. tyranid units have far superior mobility to orks, so loota purchase isnt ideal imo since they can just run around with tunnels and speed 6 infantry and kill you on map control.

regardless, fully upgraded shootas or loota purchases leave you open to ravener plays, which can perform really well at disrupting lines before the barbed strangler suppression comes in with the hormagaunts.

it feels to me that however the ork player decides to invest in T1, the tyranid player can counter his purchases much more efficiently.

full double shootas are 90 power, 120 with a loota as well. composition is countered fairly well with BSWB, and ravs, totaling 90 power, but bleeds much less

stormboys and battery pack are 55 power, painboy and burnas are 45 power. double toxin sacs with BSWB are 80 power, and the RA melee-control build is 65 power.

what really tips the matchup in favor of the nids is their superior control abilities, mobility, and the fact that they bleed much less with their low-model squads. additionally, synapse from the warriors makes the squishy units perform much more efficiently than the ork units.

[HiveSpirit]

Dat microing it requires ^^

[PhatE]

I'll note though that the 3 sluggaz + stormz is very effective against nids since burnas cost nothing, do really good damage to gaunts and one mistake means your gen farm will be destroyed in about 7 seconds. Games end in 5-7 minutes so there's that build as well I suppose.

[HiveSpirit]

Regular warriors worked remarkably good vs sluggas in one of my games. Might be due to sluggas comming around a corner and beeing stacked.
After that, in the next match (we played several), my ork opponent used warboss + 2 sluggas, i didnt fare as well vs that.

I'll note though that the 3 sluggaz + stormz is very effective against nids since burnas cost nothing, do really good damage to gaunts and one mistake means your gen farm will be destroyed in about 7 seconds. Games end in 5-7 minutes so there's that build as well I suppose.

What would one do vs 2+ sluggas as nids? Hormagaunts beats sluggas with synaps..

Thought/ clarification:
-If sluggas or shootas gets a nob, does the nobs 70melee skill apply to the whole unit? Shouldnt, but will my hormas get off any special attacks vs normal shoota models?

[Wise Windu]

Melee skill is a per-model statistic. Doesn't affect the whole squad.

[hiveminion]

Hormagaunts beats sluggas with synaps..

No they don't.

-If sluggas or shootas gets a nob, does the nobs 70melee skill apply to the whole unit? Shouldnt, but will my hormas get off any special attacks vs normal shoota models?

I don't think Hormagaunts do special attacks.

[HiveSpirit]

Hormagaunts beats sluggas with synaps..

No they don't.

-If sluggas or shootas gets a nob, does the nobs 70melee skill apply to the whole unit? Shouldnt, but will my hormas get off any special attacks vs normal shoota models?

I don't think Hormagaunts do special attacks.

That was the result of me and an ork friends experiment, maybe i mix this up but im pretty sure cus we tried it 2+ times. Synapse aura reduces their dmg with 20%.

Clarificatio:
Does synapse give knockback resistance aswell (kinda felt like that in the last game? Kinda felt like that in my last game, hormagaunts upgraded AG under HT synapse, they did to much dmg and survived for to long vs ork sluggas and stormboyz.

[Sub_Zero]

Hormagaunts do special attakcs. But their pathetic melee skill doesn't let them show it often.

Hormagaunt Scything Talons:
Radius: 0 - 5
Angle: -70 > 70
Effect: Knockback
Knockback: Weapon
Flight Distance: 6
Damage: 15
Damage Type: melee_pvp
Duration: 2.4 seconds
Effect Duration: 0
Delay: 1.4
Chance: 1
Sweep Type: none
Targets: Enemy

I really don't see why would they not have at least 60 melee skill (still the lowest in T1 and just normal in T2, nothing game-breaking at all, they are a melee unit ffs). 55 is like fucking bottom. And here comes the proposal - their incredibly bad upgrade (it will never look for me as a desirable purchase in its current state) also grants them +5 melee skill? Deal? Deal!

[Dark Riku]

Because melee synapse is a thing.

[Sub_Zero]

Mind you - a T2 thing. And as to me it is balanced for hormagaunts to have 70 melee skill in T2 and only under synapse.

[HiveSpirit]

Could be changed aswell:
*+10 melee removed from melee synapse.
*lowered to 5.
*not applied to hormagaunts.
*Give different melee skill to different units.
*Give different melee skill on a tier1-2-3 basis.

I do think t1 orks-tyranids are balanced. In t2-3 though,
upgraded terma horma vs upgraded slugga = loss
t3 lictor vs upgraded sluggas = loss
ravener alpha (acid splatter, knockback resistant armor, miasma cloud) with upgraded terma 1-2 vs slugga = loss

ftw Slugga upgraded with paintboy speed implant, swamp em, whaaag!!!, and Waaagh! Banner ^^

[PhatE]

Regular warriors worked remarkably good vs sluggas in one of my games. Might be due to sluggas comming around a corner and beeing stacked.
After that, in the next match (we played several), my ork opponent used warboss + 2 sluggas, i didnt fare as well vs that.

You'd have to get used to the idea of attack ground and using the warrior leap differently but I'm straying into theory crafting territory. My suggestion would be using attack ground a lot with the BSWB so sluggaz could never really approach properly without something else. It would be a decent idea to have spore mines or ravs handy to do the suppression/disruption. Really depends on the hero as there are tons of different ways to take on a certain fight.

Hormagaunts beats sluggas with synaps..

No they don't.

Yes they do. I've had countless situations where sluggaz lost to hormas based on a 1 vs 1 fight. This statement would assume that Sluggaz win everytime they go into combat with hormagaunts which is untrue. Plus, what is this based on? Is this default/burna/Nob sluggaz? Do the hormagaunts not have Adrenal Glands? More context around the situation needs to be elaborated on.

[hiveminion]

Hormagaunts beats sluggas with synaps..

No they don't.

Yes they do. I've had countless situations where sluggaz lost to hormas based on a 1 vs 1 fight. This statement would assume that Sluggaz win everytime they go into combat with hormagaunts which is untrue. Plus, what is this based on? Is this default/burna/Nob sluggaz? Do the hormagaunts not have Adrenal Glands? More context around the situation needs to be elaborated on.

You put forward the exact same argument that supports my statement. Of course Sluggas don't win versus Hormagaunts every single time, it all depends on the context of the engagement. Do the Warriors participate in the fight or are they just blanketing the Hormagaunts with synapse? Do the Sluggas have Burnas? A Nob? Did they and any nearby squads pop Waagh? The original proposition of HiveSpirit was wrong, I didn't imply Hormagaunts always lose.

My own experience is that Hormagaunts will lose versus Sluggas (assuming either no upgrades for both, or Adrenal Glands and Burnas), unless the Sluggas are being knocked back by Warriors/HT, or are suppressed. Otherwise, the Sluggas will win because of their special attacks, regardless of Basic Synapse or not.

[HiveSpirit]

Regular warriors worked remarkably good vs sluggas in one of my games. Might be due to sluggas comming around a corner and beeing stacked.
After that, in the next match (we played several), my ork opponent used warboss + 2 sluggas, i didnt fare as well vs that.

You'd have to get used to the idea of attack ground and using the warrior leap differently but I'm straying into theory crafting territory. My suggestion would be using attack ground a lot with the BSWB so sluggaz could never really approach properly without something else. It would be a decent idea to have spore mines or ravs handy to do the suppression/disruption. Really depends on the hero as there are tons of different ways to take on a certain fight.

WB looses their "leap/charge" when upgrading to BS tho.

snip

Yes, le details, i forgot, sorry.
In our test it was default sluggas vs hormagaunt (under warrior synapse, WB did not participate).
It was purely experimental when testing this (all possible interferance removed, attack same time in the middle, dunno what more you could do to optimize the test).

We did not:
*Iterate more than 2-3 times.
*try with slugga whaaag.
*any upgrades.

Speculations:
*I think hormas would beat/ go even vs sluggas with burnas (horma under synapse, synapse unit non participant), feels like 50/50 chance. Could go either way, sluggas would get off some burna hits, if horma were stacked it would favor sluggas, the angle of those burna hits would be crucial for sluggas victory.

*Sluggas with nob, without burnas. Sluggas should definitley win, sluggas beat a t3 lictor with that. Slugga nob would have 20% chance to special attack.

*Sluggas fully upgraded vs hormas under melee synapse (+10 melee skill, 40% hp). Hormas would get of more special attacks vs slugga models, slugga nob would have 10% chance to special attack. Hormas increased hp and chance to special should be overwhelming for the sluggas. If hormas just had the +10 melee skill and not the hp buff, i still think hormas would win as they have higher posibility to crit/ special vs normal sluggas. The slugga nob could possibly have a stronger special and knockback more hormagaunts and get some domino going, winning that way, just as legit of an outcome.

[PhatE]

I won't get into a pissing match with you. My point was that your statement implies that they win every time which simply is not the case which also had 0 context to backup the claim other than hormagaunts under synapse always lose to sluggaz. Again, this is theory crafting and doesn't lend to anything concrete other than 10 million different scenarios of how the game could come out as.

WB looses their "leap/charge" when upgrading to BS tho.

I'll clarify since rereading that it would definitely be confusing as to what I meant. It was the case of either having the BS or having default warriors. Getting used to attack ground *with BSWB* or using the leap with melee warriors.

[HiveSpirit]

snip

Im not interested about winning or losing.
Discussing and experimenting what happens when you do this n that, is just plainly intriguing to me.
I talk about it because i enjoy talking about it, i find it fun.

Sorry for sounding to convincing on hormagaunts beating sluggas, wasnt my intention, sloppy writing on my part/ to much enthusiasm.

Back to the topic at hand.
How would one counter mek+2slugga+1shoota (first-2nd encounter, before you get warriors)?

What would be better BSWB or WB, vs dubble sluggas (ork players t1,5 choice would be stormboyz)? (probably BSWB)

[Crewfinity]

spore mines shit all over sluggas in first engagement, as long as you keep them out of the line of fire of the shootas and mek.

more context would also help (what hero are you playing as?)


versus double sluggas you would want BSWB and toxin sacs, you want to control them as much as possible and not let them get into melee.

[HiveSpirit]

spore mines shit all over sluggas in first engagement, as long as you keep them out of the line of fire of the shootas and mek.

more context would also help (what hero are you playing as?)

versus double sluggas you would want BSWB and toxin sacs, you want to control them as much as possible and not let them get into melee.

RA, im building upon the first post but with modifications/ different scenarios.
G1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HX3Oeqy ... e&t=5m13s#
G2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HX3Oeqy ... e&t=5m13s#

I find it hard to not hit my own units with spore mines, spores got pretty big explosion radius and are often spread out (well then keep them stationary and stacked duhh, yes good tip). If i spread out the termas on the side of spores, sluggas should chase one of the termas, termas will also have the accordion syndrome possibly (beeing in the spore mine radius). Once termas are out of the spore radius sluggas would probably be in melee range of spores getting some 50% ranged dmg debuff (some model), but suppressed, spores should be able to move out safely and tyranids shoot em down. Thats vs one slugga unit, vs 2 sluggas feels it would be very different.

BSWB+1-2toxin sacs, thats 80 power, 80 power that takes more time than 1-2nd engagement, to get, how do i manage before that? Avoid CC i guess or just kite. Toxin sacs is only 5sec after all, thats about the time it takes to get in position and start firing vs 2 sluggas, shortly after there up your face again. If it was only one slugga, the toxin sac unit could slow while the other one shoot. Vs 2 sluggas it would need to be done probably simultaniously = no ones dealing ranged damage/ minimal (well yea the RA, ork wouldnt have the same ranged dmg output tho, mek+shootaz).