Page 1 of 2

Censorship, the Third Reich, and clarifying what's acceptable on the forums

Posted: Tue 22 Sep, 2015 7:40 pm
by Codex
Paradise Lost wrote:You better get used to it, this isn't tumblr. People are free to have their own political inclinations and should not be censored because it hurts your feelings. Also don't trust the corporate media, Hitler did nothing wrong.


Woah woah woah woah woah woah woah. Okay, DOW2 powered by Steam may not be tumblr, but this forum is not tumblr nor DOW2 forums nor anywhere else. It's subject to moderation that does not cater to free speech, and we're allowed to run it however we see fit. And this kind of post is unacceptable so long as I'm still a moderator.

There are no written rules about Nazism, Neo-nazism or whatever on the forums because it's largely ruled by common sense and we largely run a correctional strategy: you do something out of order and we'll slap you on the wrist. That said, I will not accept any condonations along the lines of inciting racial hatred, genocide, white power, or anything else that's simply so prejudiced and hateful.

Now it's true you shouldn't trust the corporate media, and the truth of course is that the winners get to write history. They all have their agendas. But if you look at the peer reviewed material out there the most convincing arguments of holocaust "deniers" revolve around the idea that the persecution and genocide of the Jews was not as bad as the Allies made it out to be, not that it didn't happen at all. In fact, there is fierce opposition to the idea that it never happened at all in the academic community.

Further to this there is strong evidence of their persecution of the Poles, who were actively disadvantaged and persecuted ever since Frederick the Great took a severe dislike to them, which Stalin also contributed heftily towards (although the Poles were hardly the only ones in the case of Stalin). This mirrors the fact that the Third Reich drew on many ideas that had been written elsewhere already, e.g. hatred of Poles, Lebensraum, Phrenology with respect to the idea of a superior gene pool and active "survival of the fittest" (Eugenics and Social Darwinism), amongst others.

I do not doubt that the actions of Nazi Germany are sometimes embellished, exaggerated or simply misrepresented. And I'm sure a lot of Germans and perhaps Hitler himself thought that their actions were right and just. But saying something as brazen as "Hitler did nothing wrong" is at best going to be flamebait. It is flawed in the same way that claiming that Chamberlain, Stalin, Bush, Mao ZeDong or even Obama has done nothing wrong. Of course they haven't, it's almost part of the job description. Don't hate on them for the echoes and hearsay about their mistakes or their evils, but hold their misdeeds up to the light and judge those with reliable sources.

Re: What do you rly hate in this game ? II

Posted: Tue 22 Sep, 2015 8:25 pm
by Paradise Lost
Codex wrote:Woah woah woah woah woah woah woah. Okay, DOW2 powered by Steam may not be tumblr, but this forum is not tumblr nor DOW2 forums nor anywhere else. It's subject to moderation that does not cater to free speech, and we're allowed to run it however we see fit. And this kind of post is unacceptable so long as I'm still a moderator.

If you ban people (not saying I was banned, just replying to that argument) because of their political beliefs or inclinations, then you are committing an act of censorship, and are no better than the nazis you claim to hate. But of course you are entitled to run your forum how you see fit, and while I don't support censorship or banning people for having a different opinion, I won't complain about your rules in your forum.

There are no written rules about Nazism, Neo-nazism or whatever on the forums because it's largely ruled by common sense and we largely run a correctional strategy: you do something out of order and we'll slap you on the wrist. That said, I will not accept any condonations along the lines of inciting racial hatred, genocide, white power, or anything else that's simply so prejudiced and hateful.

Then you will not have to worry about that kind of behavior from me because I am neither white supremacist Image (nor white for that matter) nor racist, like a true Nat Soc unlike what the media will have you believe.
Image
Now it's true you shouldn't trust the corporate media, and the truth of course is that the winners get to write history. They all have their agendas. But if you look at the peer reviewed material out there the most convincing arguments of holocaust "deniers" revolve around the idea that the persecution and genocide of the Jews was not as bad as the Allies made it out to be, not that it didn't happen at all. In fact, there is fierce opposition to the idea that it never happened at all in the academic community.

Because there was no holocaust. There was persecution which wasn't entirely unjustified. But no such thing as planned, systematic slaughter of Jewish and Polish populations. Which had not been recorded in any sort of nazi archive or document, and many historians believe Hitler himself didn't know about this.

Fun fact: Nazi Germany actually created Israel. Hitler pacted the Havaara accord with the Jewish community (which was commemorated in the coin of that time) Image

They basically paid the Jews to leave. To their beloved promised land. Of course, anyone who would dare to point this out in the media would get instantly branded as an anti-semite and instantly lose his/her job over it, because political correctness is just another tool for censorship.

Fun fact #2: Did you know six Jewish companies control most of the world's media?
Fun fact #3: Did you know most of the German media was in Jewish hands between the end of the first world war and the rise of the National Socialist party?

Further to this there is strong evidence of their persecution of the Poles, who were actively disadvantaged and persecuted ever since Frederick the Great took a severe dislike to them, which Stalin also contributed heftily towards (although the Poles were hardly the only ones in the case of Stalin). This mirrors the fact that the Third Reich drew on many ideas that had been written elsewhere already, e.g. hatred of Poles, Lebensraum, Phrenology with respect to the idea of a superior gene pool and active "survival of the fittest" (Eugenics and Social Darwinism), amongst others.

Oh, you mean the Poles who were slaughtering German nationals around the Polish border?

>survival of the fittest
That's why there were charity programs to help the homeless and disabled, right? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winterhilfswerk

I do not doubt that the actions of Nazi Germany are sometimes embellished, exaggerated or simply misrepresented. And I'm sure a lot of Germans and perhaps Hitler himself thought that their actions were right and just. But saying something as brazen as "Hitler did nothing wrong" is at best going to be flamebait. It is flawed in the same way that claiming that Chamberlain, Stalin, Bush, Mao ZeDong or even Obama has done nothing wrong. Of course they haven't, it's almost part of the job description. Don't hate on them for the echoes and hearsay about their mistakes or their evils, but hold their misdeeds up to the light and judge those with reliable sources.

I must apologize, the 'Hitler did nothing wrong' comment was mostly me getting carried away. He did several critical mistakes which put Germany on a poor position and eventually lost him the war, such as declaring war on the Soviet Union. But nothing related to things like ethnic cleansing and genocide when he did everything he could to ensure the Jews left safely, and those who wouldn't, had hotel-like conditions in concentration camps.

Don't believe me? Just check the god-damn testimonies.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVmIaBW-HjI

Re: What do you rly hate in this game ? II

Posted: Tue 22 Sep, 2015 8:35 pm
by bountyhunter571
Also don't trust the corporate media, Hitler did nothing wrong.


which country are you from?

I suggest you start to read some books honey. I can recommend Anthony Beevor.



PS: I hate turrets - just to stay on topic. but i really hate them.

PPS: ok, the second post leaves me speechless. i hope you are not allowed to vote.

Re: What do you rly hate in this game ? II

Posted: Tue 22 Sep, 2015 8:51 pm
by Dark Riku
Paradise Lost wrote:If you ban people (not saying I was banned, just replying to that argument) because of their political beliefs or inclinations, then you are committing an act of censorship, and are no better than the nazis you claim to hate.
Are you fucking retarded?
Censoring things makes you worse than a Nazi? Good thing I'm not a mod then, because I would ban you for this statement.

Re: What do you rly hate in this game ? II

Posted: Tue 22 Sep, 2015 9:20 pm
by Paradise Lost
Dark Riku wrote:
Paradise Lost wrote:If you ban people (not saying I was banned, just replying to that argument) because of their political beliefs or inclinations, then you are committing an act of censorship, and are no better than the nazis you claim to hate.
Are you fucking retarded?
Censoring things makes you worse than a Nazi? Good thin I'm not a mod then, because I would ban you for this statement.

>adressing only one point in my entire post
>purposely misinterpreting what I said just to insult me
This is teenager-tier immaturity. Are you even old enough to play DoW2?

To Codex: Note how I'm did my best to be polite and decent while exposing my views, without even bad-talking anyone, and still get personal attacks because I don't agree with the norm. See how this works?

Re: Censorship, the Third Reich, and clarifying what's acceptable on the forums

Posted: Tue 22 Sep, 2015 9:26 pm
by Codex
To update name of thread on Random stuff:

You're holding an extremely controversial view. You should learn to expect this (e.g. Young Earth Creationism). I don't think that's okay, but that's just the reality of it, and (to be clear) this is not a flaw of any particular system (in our case the forums), this is because you're expressing very controversial view.

I do want to stress I don't hold anything against you, and I'm trying to keep this a wholly intellectual discussion.

Re: Censorship, the Third Reich, and clarifying what's acceptable on the forums

Posted: Tue 22 Sep, 2015 9:30 pm
by Dark Riku
What's wrong with addressing this horrible part of your post Paradise?
There is no misinterpretation here, that's basically what you said.
I'm the teenager? :) You're claiming that you are worse than a Nazi when you censor things. Sure thing buttercup :)

Re: Censorship, the Third Reich, and clarifying what's acceptable on the forums

Posted: Tue 22 Sep, 2015 11:14 pm
by Codex
Re: Censorship

Okay, this is reminding me a bit of Charlie Hebdo, and there was a lot of chatter online about this.

1. The reality is that we all make concessions with respect to Freedom of Speech (e.g. you're not allowed/ it is not socially normative to shout "fire" in a public place, or "bomb" in an airport).
2. Your argument (due to the very specific nature of your language) states that by employing censorship, we're JUST as bad as the Nazis. However, I propose that "Genocide", amongst other things attributed to Nazis, is ethically worse and more criminal than simple censorship.
3. We're not a public body. We're private, and that means there's nothing that makes us have to care about freedom of speech. Imagine that this were a forum for Mothers of students (I'm a teacher, so this is a fairly natural example). Do you think that said forum would have to tolerate swearing and 100% freedom of speech? They wouldn't dream of it. The same applies here.

Re: integration of blacks as signs they aren't racist.

The simple argument (although flawed in its simplicity) is the classic "I'm not a racist, I have black friends!" Frequently employed by people at my school, doesn't really hold up to scrutiny. I hope for the sake of sanity that that much is clear to you.

The sophisticated argument is that when you examine Empires of old, and even up until recently, the integration and assimilation of subjects into the Empire is a wise strategy, since by definition native citizens of the Empire will be outnumbered by the Empire's subjects. If you examine the most classic example of the Roman Empire, even they realised that the best way to sustain and maintain such a huge empire was integrate Barbarians (and even their Warlords, inherently extremely risky) into their armed forces, thus reducing the quality of their overall troops. As the Empire grows larger (like a School, or a Corporation), more and more bureaucracy occurs and wastes valuable resources. So integrating (and reducing the number of alienated subjects) is a CLASSIC strategy. Even the Romans realised it 2000 years ago, to the point they offered Citizenship as an incentive for military service, but also increasing loyalty to Rome. And even then it fell apart, as it always does.

The next case study is the British Empire. The reason this example is fascinating is that it began with mutual benefit through trading and cooperation. But the fact that the French were also competing for the Indian theatre of trade and a gateway to China meant that it was a such a prime location that it was worth fighting over. So the British and French made their respective local alliances and fought a short and brutal fight that decided which European power would be the dominant force in the region, militarily and economically.

The reason for bringing up this example is that the British were heavily, heavily outnumbered during their oppressive reign, literally to the point that there would only be hundreds, maybe a thousand total British in India. So how did they stay in power? The Indians, if united, could simply rise up against their British oppressors, and oppressors they were, as the original mutually beneficial status quo of trade had been entirely replaced by a subjugation of their people. So what kept the British in power? Their reliance on local native political allies. Prominent leaders of the Indians were allied with the British, to the detriment of their own people. And yet, despite this, all Indians were considering second class citizens, even the Indian allies.

Thus, the argument can be summarised as follows: Having Black "allies" does not show they are not racist, whether that refers to racist tendencies or institutionalised racism. In fact, as I have tried to show from case studies previous empires, the reality is probably the opposite to what we'd expect: they will tend to assimilate more agreeable parts of their oppressed populations, and put those allies into power to further oppress the more numerous subjects (after all, numerical advantage could have played a big part in the British subjugation of India). Not only that, they'd probably make these alliances very public, to convince the masses to join up rather than resist oppression.

And there is no question that Hitler saw his domain as an Empire, dubbing it the Third Reich, the second being the Holy Roman Empire, and the first being of course THE Roman Empire. (I mean, eagle imagery, Roman, Napoleonic, and Third Reich, it's not a coincidence. Also, the Imperium in WH40K! Double headed eagle anyone? Or strong Empire imagery?)

Re: Jewish representation of the Holocaust

First and foremost, guess what, this isn't our realm. This is the realm of peer review. If you don't have the guts to challenge what scientists have to say when it comes to science, you should respect peer review and accept that peer review accepts the Holocaust. Also, the reason I gave more than one example is because the persecution of Poles is unjust no matter what, regardless of who started it. That's all I have to say on the matter.

Re: Persecution of the Poles

So the actions of some soldiers on the German border justifies the systemic persecution of Civilian Poles across the entirety of Poland and beyond? Is that seriously your argument?

Remember, Total War was invented in this war. Civilians only started to be viewed as direct assets AFTER Poland got split up between Germany and Russia. Before this war, Civvies weren't seen as fair game. So this was a direct act of persecution. Thus your argument boils down to, a bunch of soldiers fucked with us in Germany, let's go to Poland and persecute EVERYONE there, including peasants who probably didn't know about or condone the actions of a few soldiers and politicians.

Think about it: if your country were to start a war you wanted no part in, and some enemy soldiers came over and fucked with you and your family, would you feel that's just?

Re: having homes to help the less well off

You have to realise that governments don't behave that straightforwardly. Here's an example:

The British nation boasts what it claims to be the most progressive socialist systems in the world. We have the National Health Service, an expansive Benefits system, so much so that the NHS is the single largest category when it comes to our Annual Budgets (I've seen them, it's pretty goddarned insane). On the other hand, the public sentiment nowadays is that there are a lot of parasites coming from the EU who try to exploit our nice fluffy comfy system. There is a lot of resentment towards immigrants (which I'm sure a lot of people know about).

Government and institutions on the other hand have biases. They always do, after all they are systems based on humans. So my housemate (who is from the EU and an immigrant) has been making legitimate claims for Benefits. Yet she gets treated like shit on the phone, and gets denied legitimate benefits. It's legitimately harder to get benefits when you're from the EU, because there's such a negative undercurrent against immigrants right now.

Further, having these systems doesn't mean that the biases of the population aren't propagated by the institution. There's no reason that they might not support "less welcome peoples" as opposed to more naturalised citizens, as with our Benefits system.

"Just check the goddamn testimonies":

Which are just anecdotal. Sure, they may have "personal experience" of said event, but let me tell you a story about anecdotal evidence.

The MMR vaccine was on course to cure the worldwide problem of Measles, Mumps and Rubella. But then after one "study" based off anecdotal evidence, parents willing chose to not vaccinate their children. This is because they believed that there was causation based off the fact that there was correlation between their children developing autism and the date at which their child received the vaccine.

Of course there is no such link, otherwise we would see a decline in autism rates after said vaccine was withdrawn. But that didn't stop the hype, and that didn't stop people believing that autism can be caused by vaccines containing mercury. Sure, they had a lot of personal experience of autism, but they didn't see the full picture.

You may say that this case is different, but I view them as the same. Sure those Jews had personal experience, but is any one individual likely to have seen the entire picture? As I argued before, I'm sure there were Black sympathists towards the Nazi cause, and I'm sure there were Black people allied with them. Similarly, I'm sure there were some Jews who didn't have such a rough war. But their anecdotal evidence is trumped by the sheer weight of academic peer reviewed journals, not to mention the weight of anecdotal evidence the other way.

Here's an excellent video about anecdotal evidence:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0ZZTjChW4o

I must apologize, the 'Hitler did nothing wrong' comment was mostly me getting carried away. He did several critical mistakes which put Germany on a poor position and eventually lost him the war, such as declaring war on the Soviet Union. But nothing related to things like ethnic cleansing and genocide when he did everything he could to ensure the Jews left safely, and those who wouldn't, had hotel-like conditions in concentration camps.


Don't apologise, I wasn't talking about any of that stuff at all. We're talking cold hard ethics.

Re: Censorship, the Third Reich, and clarifying what's acceptable on the forums

Posted: Tue 22 Sep, 2015 11:18 pm
by Swift
I am not going to address the historical aspect of this thread, since I don't have the know how to argue what's right or wrong with nazism. However I will touch upon how censorship has been dealt with in the past.

These forums frequently never used to devolve into fights, maybe it's because I never bothered to visit balance or maybe it was like that, I like to believe it was because most users were good natured and thus the forums were low maintenance. However in the last few months the fights have been spilling out of balance and into general, releases, website etc. And the nature of censorship has been a more eminent issue that has grown since then to become a rather large issue, whereas before, if your comment was deleted, it got deleted and you had to suck it up.

So what's different now? I'll try to lend a hand as to why I think censorship is what it is on these forums now:

1) The moderators have less time on their hands, meaning fewer visits to deal with wayward posters, less time to resolve disputes other than a click of a "delete" button and a short sharp "STFU" order. This is is aggravating for users because it means they don't feel they're getting fair, unbiased treatment (don't even start on human biases, for the purpose of this thread we shall not dig deeper into trivialities) and so they lash out at someone next time. The fact moderators have less time on their hands is also an aggravating factor, we come here to relax and discuss what we do in our free time, so making free time like work time is only going to cause issue.

2) The new people joining us are inciting the community to react harshly. It's not a proven case, existing problem causers exist, but the rate of increasing conflict does correlate with the number of moderation choices/clashes, with some of these including very new members to the forum, with the older members being less involved, but when they are it's more based on multiple issues with one particular user rather than multiple less offensive users.

3) The existing community is unwelcoming of outsiders. It's not uncommon, we're all xenophobic in ways, I've been guilty of it myself on the Steam group, wary of giving someone moderation rights for example because they're new. They can't trust new people, and if they have opinions... well some overreact. This is also something I have noticed, and it happens with a select few users, though names will not be attached. It's perfectly viable to feel that the uninformed are taking over what is your precious thing and trying to change it, it's how you mitigate the damage that really leaves a lasting impression.

4) The Elite mod has been taking more dynamic turns. Dynamic, for want of a better word, is how I see it. Not overtly bad, not overtly good, but a fresh way of looking at things, which for some can be hostile. If you've switched from retail, played a long time ago or fell into a well rehearsed pattern this can be a big shock, and provokes intense discussion. I do visit balance now, I never post because I don't actually have anything to say, but I see this most egregiously here. The changes are radical and cause many issues with gameplay that upset the players who had a rhythm and creates divide between those who are for the old ways and those eager to adapt to a shifting meta. Neither side is right or wrong, but either side are incredibly opinionated.

The lesson we can all walk away with is to be more considerate. Words are not faceless, blank hieroglyphs anymore, they carry a subtlety of meaning and various connotations, and we must treat subjects like they are made of glass and handle them carefully lest they break and cause a lot of damage.

Well, that was patronising, but you get the point.

TL;DR: Stop being a forum warrior and think before you act, there are more implications to this than just what you had to say.

[EDIT]: I left out all the fancy terminology for a reason, I'm not here to prove I'm seventeen leagues greater in intelligence, just make the forum a nicer place.

Re: What do you rly hate in this game ? II

Posted: Wed 23 Sep, 2015 1:39 am
by Cyris
Paradise Lost wrote:Because there was no holocaust.


Members of my extended family died in the holocoust you pathetic excuse for a human. I knew you were a bit dumb from the myopic nonsense you spout on balance and gameplay, but I had no idea you were this diseased mentally. Welcome to my block-list.

Re: Censorship, the Third Reich, and clarifying what's acceptable on the forums

Posted: Wed 23 Sep, 2015 2:09 am
by Ace of Swords
Image

Beside enjoying the drama and people becoming mad and also having personally researched the political idieologies that brought Europe to WWII aswell as having debated this stuff in real life and on forums and having a general passion for history, I think I should be the first to point out that the Elite mod forums aren't suited for such discussion, no matter if it's in the random stuff section.

Re: Censorship, the Third Reich, and clarifying what's acceptable on the forums

Posted: Wed 23 Sep, 2015 2:16 am
by crazyman64335
ace if you think this drama is good just wait til i unleash the drama that OCF has brewed up, it's going to probably break the fucking community, it will be glorious

and riku stop acting like a teenager you apo fangay :P

Re: Censorship, the Third Reich, and clarifying what's acceptable on the forums

Posted: Wed 23 Sep, 2015 2:21 am
by Ace of Swords
crazyman64335 wrote:ace if you think this drama is good just wait til i unleash the drama that OCF has brewed up, it's going to probably break the fucking community, it will be glorious

and riku stop acting like a teenager you apo fangay :P


FUCK YES, Im waiting for that since your thread on coh2.org got deleted :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Re: Censorship, the Third Reich, and clarifying what's acceptable on the forums

Posted: Wed 23 Sep, 2015 2:41 am
by Oddnerd
Nazi lunatics show up in the strangest places. 4Chan /pol/ must be leaking.

Re: Censorship, the Third Reich, and clarifying what's acceptable on the forums

Posted: Wed 23 Sep, 2015 3:29 am
by Atlas
According to Godwin's Law, Paradise actually lost this debate the moment he cited the Nazis as a comparison.

Actually Codex, you failed to bring up Hernando Cortez and his similar treatment to the Aztec Empire and its subjects. When the Spanish were off doing the conquistador thing, Cortez' men were heavily outnumbered and on enemy territory. He outmaneuvered Montezuma on a cultural and strategic level, by pitting each of the various tribes against him while still not at any point accepting the South American allies as equals. To him, they were considered objects and not people. Just tools to be used to his own devices.

But the point you made still remains; having "friends" of a certain type doesn't inoculate you from criticism on racial grounds. Just look at Kim Davis over there for a real life example of that happening right now.

Re: Censorship, the Third Reich, and clarifying what's acceptable on the forums

Posted: Wed 23 Sep, 2015 3:53 am
by Adeptus Noobus
I don't get this....Paradise Lost actually believes that the following are facts?
  • Holocaust did not happen
  • Nazis created Israel
  • Blacks were in the Hitler Youth on their own free will and they liked it
  • Deathcamps are a hoax

Do you know that there are people in Germany that are still alive to this very day who were witnesses to all these crimes? Hell, I can ask my grandparents and they will tell me exactly what happened. How Jews were picked up from their homes at night to be deported to the camps, how the trains full of people were send into concentration camps to be gased, etc. These are not elaborate hoaxes or conspiracies, these are researchable facts. For your sake I hope that you are neither a german (because then you ought to know better) nor live in Germany because saying the things you said here on the forums is a punishable offense. And rightfully so!

If you question my sources or credibility, let me tell you that I am german as well as a black person (just to get that out of the way). I have (in a few cases had because dead) relatives who witnessed these crimes live with their very own eyes. Now you are free to believe what you want but going around pissing on the memory of everyone that fell victim to these unfathomable crimes is just incomprehensible to me.
There are also black people from the WW2 era who are still alive today. Their testimony completely contradicts what you have claimed here. They were by no means seen as equals, because, you know, they were deemed sub-human. Monkeys. Barbarians. Again, Google and Books are your best friend when it comes to knowledge.

The claim, that Nazi Germany created Israel for them and was a friend to any living jew (except for the Dr. who treated Hitlers mother) is so false, I will not even dive into that. It is just incredibly wrong.

"Hitler did not know about the killings"......Have you ever picked up his book "Mein Kampf"? He pretty much lays it out in there. In his own words, he tells people what he wants and is planning, how he sees the world and the germans/arians as being superior bla bla bla yada yada yada.

@Codex I am kinda shocked that you are being so lenient with this guy. This post should not warrant a slap on the wrist but immediate removal from this forum. This is not a matter of freedom of speech nor is it a matter of differing political views. This is holocaust-denial at its best. Nothing less.

Re: Censorship, the Third Reich, and clarifying what's acceptable on the forums

Posted: Wed 23 Sep, 2015 3:55 am
by Adeptus Noobus

Re: Censorship, the Third Reich, and clarifying what's acceptable on the forums

Posted: Wed 23 Sep, 2015 5:18 am
by ytimk
Oddnerd wrote:Nazi lunatics show up in the strangest places. 4Chan /pol/ must be leaking.

Hehehe 8chan /pol/ might be spilling out as well.

I'm not sure if someone is having a laugh though:

https://encyclopediadramatica.se/Agile2013
Look at that first image holy lol.

Re: What do you rly hate in this game ? II

Posted: Wed 23 Sep, 2015 5:36 am
by egewithin
Paradise Lost wrote:If you ban people (not saying I was banned, just replying to that argument) because of their political beliefs or inclinations, then you are committing an act of censorship, and are no better than the nazis you claim to hate. But of course you are entitled to run your forum how you see fit, and while I don't support censorship or banning people for having a different opinion, I won't complain about your rules in your forum.


He can ban political posts in this forum because there are not necessery here. Politics only increases my temper, rage since I can't do anything about it. When I see a problem, I try to fix it. But when I try to fix over 30.000.000 ignorant people (half of country), I can't do anything about it but still trying for it and failing. That is why I stoped politics on internet, school, street, whereever I can have. Soo, not because I am lazy, which I am not, because it was necessery here.

Paradise looks a bit Nazi fanatic which is something I absolutly do not accept. Not being Nazi, but being fanatic for something. You just can't say Hitler did nothing wrong.

Paradise Lost wrote:Because there was no holocaust. There was persecution which wasn't entirely unjustified. But no such thing as planned, systematic slaughter of Jewish and Polish populations. Which had not been recorded in any sort of nazi archive or document, and many historians believe Hitler himself didn't know about this.


Why would they ever record these? Do they need it? Also, why to left a proff behind for nothing when you can easly get away with it? And leave no proof behind so other generations can say '' There were no holocust! Where is your proof?! ''

Paradise Lost wrote:Fun fact #2: Did you know six Jewish companies control most of the world's media?
Fun fact #3: Did you know most of the German media was in Jewish hands between the end of the first world war and the rise of the National Socialist party?


Well, I don't care? If your kind were smarter then Jewishs, you could created those medias and control our planets media. But you were not. Your blonde and blue eyed kind were out smarted by a bunch of Jewishs. Also, you couldn't control you own media in your country? Well this is not something I called as a well defended country. This is all your mistake, and can't complain about it.

Paradise Lost wrote:Don't believe me? Just check the god-damn testimonies.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVmIaBW-HjI


Yessss, a video from YouTube is a really good proff. Well done, now we can agree that Hitler did nothing wrong. I am sure every other video against Nazis are totally a lie. (Sigh...) I mean, come on! You can't actually belive then that easly. You can't proof it is not a propaganda eather, which seems it is.

Re: What do you rly hate in this game ? II

Posted: Wed 23 Sep, 2015 5:55 am
by Paradise Lost
Cyris wrote:
Paradise Lost wrote:Because there was no holocaust.


Members of my extended family died in the holocoust you pathetic excuse for a human. I knew you were a bit dumb from the myopic nonsense you spout on balance and gameplay, but I had no idea you were this diseased mentally. Welcome to my block-list.

Cry me a river. I should really insult you, but I know that's exactly what you're looking for.I'm tired of your lying and deception, me and ever more people who wake up everyday. We will expose you, no matter what. Your days of censorship, lies and manipulation are over and those of you who do not turn back from your sick perception of being better than everyone else will suffer the consequences of a world that has had enough.

Re: Censorship, the Third Reich, and clarifying what's acceptable on the forums

Posted: Wed 23 Sep, 2015 6:12 am
by Aguxyz
Ace of Swords wrote:Image


Re: Censorship, the Third Reich, and clarifying what's acceptable on the forums

Posted: Wed 23 Sep, 2015 6:27 am
by Paradise Lost
I cannot reply in detail to everyone at the same time, so I will do a series of quick replies for each user addressing mostly the key points in their arguments. Of course, those who are polite and actually interested in intelligent discussion instead of just calling me names and getting ''triggered'' like angry feminists will get more of a priority here.

Atlas, I don't get your point. So you are basically arguing that Hitler only viewed non-white volunteers as tools rather than people? What makes you think this? Here are a few quotes from Mein Kampf (at least the original versions, I don't know what the media has made it say in the newest editions these days) about Hitler's views on muslims.

''You see, it's been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn't we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion [Islam] too would have been more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?''

''Had Charles Martel not been victorious at Poitiers -already, you see, the world had already fallen into the hands of the Jews, so gutless a thing Christianity! -then we should in all probability have been converted to Mohammedanism [Islam], that cult which glorifies the heroism and which opens up the seventh Heaven to the bold warrior alone. Then the Germanic races would have conquered the world. Christianity alone prevented them from doing so''

He actually seems to envy muslims, which is far from seeing them as ''objects'' to be used and discarded. He even had a full muslim batallion, and the nazis were not famous for using their troops as expendable meat shields. Now if you want someone who thinks humans are nothing but expendable flesh read up on Joseph Stalin.

Adeptus Noobus,
1) You seem to rely a little too much on anecdotal evidence. Let me give you a tip: It hasn't got **** on statistics, documentation and forensic evidence. Which holohoax parroters seem to distinctively lack.
2) On your claim of being right 'because you're a German'... I happen to have a German friend with an ancestry that dates back to much longer than yours, who has family members still alive from the war. His Grandfather and uncle are still alive, and both claim this 'holocaust' was a Soviet fabrication. If you need historians, check out on the works of David Irving, who also lived through the war and experienced the differing narratives.
3) Which edition of Mein Kampf did you read? Because no edition that I know of mentions getting rid of Jews by systematic extermination that doesn't even make sense statistically.
4) Oh yeah, censor everything I don't like! Why don't we censor also those who evil nazis who deny that Iraq had nuclear bombs and Assad killed his people with chemical weapons? After all, they both contradict what is said by the establishment, they must be horrible human beings! :˄)


fireatwithin
So you basically just ignored the parts of my post that didn't suit you so that you can then attack me with pointless strawmen? Are you shilling for Israel, man? How can you say that I am a fanatic because I said that Hitler did nothing wrong in a post, when you read the other post in which I apologized, admitted getting carried away and acknowledging it wasn't true?

How can you be so shamelessly dishonest? And your arguments... No you're either Jewish or definitely shilling. I was willing to debate respectfully but you just... Ugh.

Re: Censorship, the Third Reich, and clarifying what's acceptable on the forums

Posted: Wed 23 Sep, 2015 7:07 am
by Wise Windu
Paradise Lost wrote:Atlas, I don't get your point. So you are basically arguing that Hitler only viewed non-white volunteers as tools rather than people? What makes you think this? Here are a few quotes from Mein Kampf (at least the original versions, I don't know what the media has made it say in the newest editions these days) about Hitler's views on muslims.

''You see, it's been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn't we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion [Islam] too would have been more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?''

''Had Charles Martel not been victorious at Poitiers -already, you see, the world had already fallen into the hands of the Jews, so gutless a thing Christianity! -then we should in all probability have been converted to Mohammedanism [Islam], that cult which glorifies the heroism and which opens up the seventh Heaven to the bold warrior alone. Then the Germanic races would have conquered the world. Christianity alone prevented them from doing so''

He actually seems to envy muslims, which is far from seeing them as ''objects'' to be used and discarded. He even had a full muslim batallion, and the nazis were not famous for using their troops as expendable meat shields. Now if you want someone who thinks humans are nothing but expendable flesh read up on Joseph Stalin.
Based on those quotes, it seems to me that he's viewing the religions themselves as more beneficial than Christianity. He isn't praising the people who practice them, but the religions themselves. Those quotes don't really prove anything about his thoughts on "non-Aryans".

Paradise Lost wrote:1) You seem to rely a little too much on anecdotal evidence.
Paradise Lost wrote:2) On your claim of being right 'because you're a German'... I happen to have a German friend with an ancestry that dates back to much longer than yours, who has family members still alive from the war. His Grandfather and uncle are still alive, and both claim this 'holocaust' was a Soviet fabrication. If you need historians, check out on the works of David Irving, who also lived through the war and experienced the differing narratives.
And I guess you do, too. Your previous posts did as well. And there is quite a lot of non-anecdotal evidence in support of pretty much everything you're opposing here.

Paradise Lost wrote:4) Oh yeah, censor everything I don't like! Why don't we censor also those who evil nazis who deny that Iraq had nuclear bombs and Assad killed his people with chemical weapons? After all, they both contradict what is said by the establishment, they must be horrible human beings! :˄)
Again, it's not a "freedom of speech" forum. If the moderators think it breaks some rule of conduct or morality, or whatever is considered not okay, they can remove it. This site is not a bastion of free speech. It's a place to discuss a video game, and occasionally some other off topic stuff, often related to that same video game. Comparing yourself to vocal anti-establishment groups is a bit over-dramatic when you're arguing about the character of Hitler and the Nazi party on a small, online video game forum. Or a lot over-dramatic.

Also, accusing people of "shilling for Israel" doesn't really make you seem very reasonable. Strongly disagreeing with you doesn't automatically place them in that category, if that is even a category. Seems more like a weak premise for retaliation. Which, again, doesn't really open this up for reasonable discussion, if it was even possible for that to happen in the first place.

Re: Censorship, the Third Reich, and clarifying what's acceptable on the forums

Posted: Wed 23 Sep, 2015 8:37 am
by hiveminion
Someone please murder this thread in broad daylight.

Re: Censorship, the Third Reich, and clarifying what's acceptable on the forums

Posted: Wed 23 Sep, 2015 8:46 am
by Swift
I don't think this can go anywhere good, and to be honest I think Paradise Lost has proven he can't be a sensible human being.

So for that reason I recommend the mods gather in their Illuminati chamber to discuss how best to censor Paradise's truths so the rest of this forum can move on in ignorance.

Also if you ever deny that someone else's family died in a genocide, then I can only advocate you get banned from here with immediate effect, trying to reason and explain is no good when they mock someone for their family's misfortune. If you don't leave, I can't see anyone ever backing you up again. Don't post uninformed rubbish, and when you do, make sure you can see your mistake.

Re: What do you rly hate in this game ? II

Posted: Wed 23 Sep, 2015 10:04 am
by Gorbles
Paradise Lost wrote:If you ban people (not saying I was banned, just replying to that argument) because of their political beliefs or inclinations, then you are committing an act of censorship, and are no better than the nazis you claim to hate. But of course you are entitled to run your forum how you see fit, and while I don't support censorship or banning people for having a different opinion, I won't complain about your rules in your forum.

Codex has handled the historical argument with much more patience than I would have (also didn't realise there were many fellow history lovers around!), so I'm going to avoid that.

I'm just going to pick up on this, as a veteran moderator of many communities (regardless of how much people remember me with fondness - I was young, back then ;)).

1. All moderation involves "censorship" depending on your non-dictionary interpretation of censorship. So let's hit up the top two definitions of "censor", given the top definition for "censorship" is the act of being a censor:

1. an official who examines books, plays, news reports, motion pictures, radio and television programs, letters, cablegrams, etc., for the purpose of suppressing parts deemed objectionable on moral, political, military, or other grounds.

2. any person who supervises the manners or morality of others.

Now, the former doesn't apply because moderators are community volunteers and not officials in any real capacity. Codex is not an official. If you distort the meaning of a moderator to fit this category, you're breaking from the established dictionary definition of censor in the first place.

The second definition is much more applicable. The supervision of posters' manners is in part what a moderator does. However, this also isn't a bad thing.

There is a common flaw, especially on the Internet, when people claim "censorship is bad", and use any definition of censorship to justify it. The problem is censorship is not universally bad. The censoring of materials as defined by the first definition could be argued as damaging to society - indeed, that's what the Nazis did by rewriting their biological history and burning cultural and religious Jewish artefacts.

However, the second definition of "censor" is a separate definition. You can't claim that, say, Codex is supervising your morality and thus engaging in censorship, because your equivalence is based on using the second definition while claiming it fits the first definition (by comparing him to Nazi acts). That's illogical.

The Nazis fall under the first type of censor(ship). Forum moderators, arguably, fall under the second. They are not the same thing.

And don't get me started on how all members agree to abide by the moderating staff whenever they join a forum. It's usually in the EULA / ToS or on the signup page when you register (this is the default registration text for most forum software suits). Having set up forums of my own, administrated others, and moderated many more, I'm comfortable with this assumption.

Peace out.

Re: Censorship, the Third Reich, and clarifying what's acceptable on the forums

Posted: Wed 23 Sep, 2015 11:14 am
by PhatE
lol. What is this thread even...are there really people on here that support Hitler?

Re: Censorship, the Third Reich, and clarifying what's acceptable on the forums

Posted: Wed 23 Sep, 2015 11:52 am
by egewithin
Paradise Lost wrote: How can you say that I am a fanatic because I said that Hitler did nothing wrong in a post, when you read the other post in which I apologized, admitted getting carried away and acknowledging it wasn't true?


I read that part before I posted it. But you were saying some fails about tactics, nothing about our main point. That post you made was miles away from what I was looking for. Also, I read you whole post there. I only pointed on stuff that needs short anwers. As I said at my own post, politics gives me rage. I don't have to answer all your stuff, and I don't need to prove that I am / we are right about what we are saying. In short, there weren't any parts didn't suit for me, there were parts not worth to answer.

I hope this post will be locked, because I don't want to see my friends (you are in one of them) arguing for something that they didn't take part for. Stop fighting for past, move forward to future everyone.

Re: Censorship, the Third Reich, and clarifying what's acceptable on the forums

Posted: Wed 23 Sep, 2015 12:52 pm
by Ar-Aamon
What dafuq did I just read?! U mad paradise? Get your shit together. This Heresy must end.

Re: Censorship, the Third Reich, and clarifying what's acceptable on the forums

Posted: Wed 23 Sep, 2015 1:03 pm
by Forestradio
Exterminatus! Exterminatus on my position!

Image