Suggestions heading into 2.5

[Tex]

Preamble

Well, when I saw that Caeltos has been working on 2.5 it inspired me to relay some of my thoughts and ideas in terms of how to improve the state of the game. I know that this isn't my mod, but I feel like I can say I have provided some (mostly) non-biased ideas and suggestions towards the optimization of existing wargears or units, many of which have been at least in part taken upon.
Now, I'll be the first to admit that not everything that comes out of my brain is gold... and that's why as a community and more importantly, as a development team, ideas are filtered and discussed, and usually the good ones can stand on their own merit.

In terms of my philosophy for Dow2, especially in the case of weapons and armor, I have always wanted them to be useful without completely relying on another purchase. Obviously synergy is a thing, but in my viewpoint, synergy should serve to make something stronger. It shouldn't be required for something to work in any fashion at all. When it comes to accessories, things are a bit more complicated, but in any case, it still makes to give each wargear individual value.
A great example of this would be the plague sword before it got the long fought over HP buff. This weapon was completely pointless without buying armor to accompany it. With a simple buff of +70 hp, the PC received just enough padding so that he could swing his blade a few times instead of having to insta-retreat.

Concept

What if we could take a few things (wargears) and change the way they perform in very specific instances to give them just enough buff to become relevant?
What if we could adjust performance without changing cost or damage values?
Can we use some balance concepts that have worked before and apply them to situations we have now?

Suggestions

Disclaimer: This list will grow or shrink and be updated if I find some more good ideas posted in this thread. I have more items incoming and will start with just this few for now.

1) Force Commander Power Sword
Let's be honest, it's a decent upgrade. The special attack is quick and deadly. The damage buff is pretty decent, but this wargear is plagued by internal and external conflict. The direct external comparison is of course the LC power sword, which is just flat out better for only 10 req. The only difference being that the LC is a softer hero and doesn't get knockback immunity. Then of course there is the internal conflict with the thunder hammer, which of course is a disgustingly powerful wargear. Now I know that TH is getting adjusted, but that still doesn't include the power sword into any build I know of.
So taking into mind my philosophy on wargear, and also the concepts I'm thinking of, here is my suggestion:

-Power sword increases courage by 50

Reason being that it allows the force commander an increased window for flanking setups, allows him to fight through AWD and ranger suppression better, and doesn't change the way the weapon performs at all. It will compete very slightly with the stormshield, but I don't see it taking away the role.

2)Warboss bang bang hammer/angry bitz
This is a paradigm shift that I have wanted for a long time, yet I haven't had the right idea to pull it off. Now I believe I have the right idea.
This change would have to be a double wammy. First, a nerf to angry bitz, and then seconds, a buff to the bang bang hammer.

-bang bang hammer cost increased to 150-30, bang bang hammer increases warboss courage by 100
-angry bitz cost increased to 130-25, angry bitz no longer grant increased damage
-NOTE: if bang bang hammer changes are put in, boss pole courage damage resistance modifiers for warboss are shrunk considerably.

Reason being that it gives the bang bang hammer a very ego-centric addition to its role and quite frankly, gives it a reason to exist (again, without changing damage values). Again, it will open a larger window for the warboss to get into combat and will make him a flanking nightmare (think team games here too!).
In the same right, angry bitz has needed a nerf for a long time, and I think taking away some of this ridiculous smorgasbord of buffs that the warboss gets from a 20 power wargear along with increasing its value is a great direction to go in. He still gets the regen and the speed buff, which in my opinion are the most important buffs.

3) Techmarine artificer armor
It's a decent upgrade. Probably overshadowed at this point by bionics. Some might argue that bionics is what needs the nerf. At any rate, it got me thinking about how tanky the TM is in cover with this armor, but also how mines have been indirectly nerfed by so many hard to kill/immortal detectors. Here is my suggestion:

-Artificer armor increases TM courage by 50

Reason? In my mind this opens up a larger window for the TM to do his thing and threaten that which threatens him most (Setups in T1 and has worst synergy with ASM). In green cover with 50 extra courage, I guarantee you wont be setting up in this guy's face. Also, no sense buffing the mines because they already do massive damage if you can get something to walk over them, and buffing them seems like a waste because most players wont be crafty enough to use them outside of detection.

4) Warlock Heart of Darkness
The idea for enhance is nice, but currently its just not doing what it needs to. 6 seconds is too short, and not being able to cast it on the warlock is a huge downside. Possible suggestions:

-a) Heart of Darkness increases energy regeneration of warlock by x (value needed) and gives passive benefits to his three weapons: increased DoT for immolate, increased knockback frequency or special procs for MWB, and higher damage output for WoK.
-b) Heart of Darkness ability "enhance" duration increased to 10 seconds and becomes castable on the warlock as well.

5) More dakka global red cost changed for 75 to 50. No brainer

6) Redesign of GK T1 into energy and ability co-dependence
a) Strike squad start with purification as starting ability
b) WATH is changed to a toggle ability
c) IST's have damage upgrade split between both squad leaders
d) IST grenade barrage has damage lowered, cooldown lowered, and is given an energy cost of 65(?)
e) OPS cost increased to 300-30
f) OPS starting ability changed to stun bomb (with slightly decreased radius). OPS speed reduced to 5.5, cloaking is now granted with fallback plan. Cloaking increases move speed by +1 and energy drain rate is increased.
g) OPS starting DPS lowered by 15%, OPS squad gain 10% DPS when squad leader is purchased in T2.
h) OPS are given a shotgun blast as a second starting ability
i) Purified blades wargear is redesigned with an ability costing energy
j) Purgation squad, both abilities cost energy and the "focus" becomes toggle

MORE TO COME!

[Crewfinity]

Lol you really don't like suppression, huh?

I like the idea these changes are going in. I think the BC power sword could use a little love too, LC makes his look so lame

Giving the warboss 300 courage with the hammer, combined with 50% suppression immunity from boss pole might be a bit much 0_o

Also I don't think angry bitz needs both of those changes, either a cost increase or removing the damage buff would be enough imo

I do think the artificer armor increasing courage is a cool idea, could also see the mines get an energy reduction

[egewithin]

-Power sword increases courage by 50

Codex will be very happy of that it seems.

[Asmon]

It's funny Tex when you say that you want to apply concepts that works and in the end only suggest one thing related to courage. Not that I think your ideas are bad, they sound fine to me in the current state of the game.

But I've always had another philosophy about wargears, especially weapons. It is only logical that weapons become more powerful as tiers progress. Therefore you often ponder whether to buy a weapon upgrade in T1, considering a better weapon will be available soon, plus how uncertain it is that you will create enough opportunities in T1 to indeed benefit from this purchase. Especially coming for an Eldar point of view, with every T1 units except hwt requiring an upgrade. Then again WL vanilla damage is pitiful so you need a weapon anyway, but that's not the point here.

The facts are: a weapon upgrade in T1 is a risky investment, T2 weapons are better and moreover what I'd call endgame weapons (i.e. you always find yourself wanting it, and your hero will keep it from now on until the end of the game, except for the lucky ones with good T3 options).

Thus, instead of trying to make T1 weapons relevant counterpart of T2 weapons, I'd do the following: when you buy a T1 weapon in T1, you get a reduction in T2 to T2 weapon prices. Not necesserily the same amount through races and commanders, but someting nonetheless.

This idea solves internal balance. External balance concerns remains ofc, and if a weapon is plain weak then it needs modifications.

Now I don't know if what I suggest should make it to 2.5, it's more food for thoughts atm.

But since we're on to discussing wargear, I'd propose for my beloved WL, based on facts: WL is (with FS) the most energy intensive hero ability-wise, with no energy management option. And WoK has poor DPS, with a 80 energy ability that does poor damage.

Witchblade of Kurnous: at least 70 DPS or Heavy melee or better Ethereal Slash.

HoD: let Enhance be cast on WL himself, though I don't like this new ability, I'd rather remove it.

A whole different HoD I thought of would be as follows. HoD gives passive energy regeneration and one melee trait: FoF doesn't reduce melee damage or improves weapons. Immolator gains +50% duration for the ability, MWB drains energy instead of burning it, WoK has better Ethereal Slash.

[Aguxyz]

I feel imo that meks "More Dakka" global should go back to being 50 red and not 75 since it doesnt have the KB anymore and for what it does now it's not worth the 75 red for it

[The Great Kenny]

I think the grey knights should get some debuffs too. I don't put much time to the game but there are some things that i find a bit too off balance

Inquisitorial operatives:
-Increase requisition cost from 250 to 300
They die easily, but if we consider their auto-shotguns that deal 15 piercing damage not to mention infiltration and their speed being 6.5, they are a bit cheap on requisition for what they are capable off

Grey knight terminators:
-Increase requisition cost from 600 to 650 req and reinforce cost from 100 to 150 req(just like space marine terminators) and maybe remove the retreat ability.
Well they are anti-Infantry monsters, not to mention that they are basically hard to kill.

Grey knight paladins:
-Increase reinforce cost from 108 req to 150 req and maybe remove the retreat ability.

Acolyte (Stormtrooper squad leader):
- Increase power cost from 15 to 25 (Or 20)
Acolyte do a bit of healing to not just only their squad, but to everyone around him, not to mention that he gives a buff of 25% of damage to his own squad. He is also the last member to die, just like the sargeant.

As i said, i don't put much time on the game this days, and i dont use so much the grey knights, but i just checked their stats, and i kinda find some of them a bit cheap on resources for what they can do after being deployed

[Toilailee]

I feel imo that meks "More Dakka" global should go back to being 50 red and not 75 since it doesnt have the KB anymore and for what it does now it's not worth the 75 red for it

Agreed. First it got a double buff and then a double nerf, there's the golden middleway or something along those lines...

[Adeptus Noobus]

I think the grey knights should get some debuffs too. I don't put much time to the game but there are some things that i find a bit too off balance

Inquisitorial operatives:
-Increase requisition cost from 250 to 300
They die easily, but if we consider their auto-shotguns that deal 15 piercing damage not to mention infiltration and their speed being 6.5, they are a bit cheap on requisition for what they are capable off

Grey knight terminators:
-Increase requisition cost from 600 to 650 req and reinforce cost from 100 to 150 req(just like space marine terminators) and maybe remove the retreat ability.
Well they are anti-Infantry monsters, not to mention that they are basically hard to kill.

Grey knight paladins:
-Increase reinforce cost from 108 req to 150 req and maybe remove the retreat ability.

Acolyte (Stormtrooper squad leader):
- Increase power cost from 15 to 25 (Or 20)
Acolyte do a bit of healing to not just only their squad, but to everyone around him, not to mention that he gives a buff of 25% of damage to his own squad. He is also the last member to die, just like the sargeant.

As i said, i don't put much time on the game this days, and i dont use so much the grey knights, but i just checked their stats, and i kinda find some of them a bit cheap on resources for what they can do after being deployed

Read the tentative notes from Caeltos concerning the next patch...

[Black Relic]

Totally agree on the power sword. I want to also sit him behind cover of a set up and him just shoot them down, ever so slow. But I'm not totally sure about buffing it even a little. Since it does buff battly cry to 15% per specail attack. You can maybe try a inspiration buff themed SM army and Fc is the only one who can do it effectivly. PC with sword and banner with a melee dread and libby. The other units be two tacs and an ASM with melta bomb. When ever you force your opponent off have your tacs cap/decap. If FC get at least one battle cry special off that's a huge buff. 10% (battle cry activated) + 15% (one special attack from power sword) + 25% (battle standard). The throw in a "For the Emperor" for more damage (maybe missile tacs). But its alot of micro and power.

Angry Bitz should have the damage buff removed i agree there, since it already give health regen and a charge. Im not totally sure on buffing the big bang hammer. Maybe a small req decrease (5-15) since it is only melee damage and quickly falls off after t1 if the warboss doesn't have another upgrade like angry bitz. But when he does get the utility upgrade is is a total monster which buffs his army with every hit.

artificer armor. Its fine, but if the mines could still explode if stepped on even when detected it would make it SOOOO much more appealing. Then change mines energy cost goes up to 65 or have it damage decreased to 80 and slow on vehicles down to 10 from 15.

I also think the way flamers do damage should be looked into. Here is my idea. Lower its initial damage and units hit by this weapon take damage over time that stacks. I type some numbers but it sounded OP so I removed it lol.

I have already said some of my GK changes. Ill add them here. And a few more.

IST starting damage for their lasguns reduced by 15%. Then add a modifier that when they get their serg it increases by 15%. Their build time reduced to 18 from 20.

Warrior Acolyte's damage buff reduced from 25% to 15%. Since purgation are being moved back to tier 1 i think its justifiable to lower their ranged damage a little bit. Plus SS aren't a push over in ranged either. They will have SS, IST(incredible burst damage), Operatives (anti-melee can great skirmish unit atm) and throwing purgation (not going to touch on tanky BC much) seems like they will have the range superiority vs most races. I think lowering their lasgun burst damage here will be a plus since it will give a bit more remove for some squads to breath in 1v1. This change would also help IST scale better with their weapon upgrades. Grenade launchers would do 30% more damage with this change rather than 25%. And plasma guns would also go up to 30% when IST are fully upgraded.

Operatives movement speed lowered to 5.75 (or 6) from 6.5. They can still chase and kite reasonably well with that speed but 6.5 seemed WAY too fast imo, they could flank and cap the map pretty dang fast and can still kite melee squad pretty dang well. But again would give players a bit of breathing room even if its a small amount.
Their damage also should be reduced based on how far the enemy is. 0.8(distant), 0.9(long), 1(medium), 1.1 (short). Their weapon range stays at 28 or even increase it to 30 perhaps. I want Operatives to be anti melee while still being able to contribute to a ranged fire fight rather than dropping half the squad trying to get there, which is whats going to happen if the range is reduced to 26. Plus they would be able to be more appropriate for counter initiation via their 10% more damage at short range and help protects Purgation or double IST from jump troops. Plus a Flank will be even more effective with this.

I think their infiltration should not drain energy while they are standing still after like 3 seconds it stops draining). It is because while the operatives did do a lot in map control via their movement speed the Rhino was also a reason why Gk had such a strong map presence in t1 and help GK from bleeding. But if Rhino is moved to t2, that will hurt their map control in t1. It was a bit absurd when i faced an amazing player however the change will be a big blow. Think their energy not draining when standing still will help the bleed vs GK.

Now other stuff:

Bloodcrusher cost increased to 275/60. However the time to produce reduced to 20(5). This units have a very limited time until it because a bit of a burden. Its production time should be lowered although it shouldn't be cheep. This units is more like vehicle armor you throw at the enemy to gain some momentum back and get a bit of map control and bash a gen or two and force some upgrades from you opponent before its dies. After consider increasing its upkeep a bit. They will be fast to get out so spamming them is definitely an option, however getting 3 bloodcrushers out in 1(15 seconds) is a lot to deal with. So the kinda punish the chaos player a bit would be via upkeep imo.

Seer council. People think this unit should get a buff. And I say HELL NO!! The squad is niche. But the role they play in for example baby sitting a fire prism and just being a capping unit in 1v1. These guys deserve no buff! They need a nerf. Not in health, damage or any of that. The nerf i want to a cooldown on their leap. That thing triggers about 7 times whenever i fight them. I makes any effort to be near them with infantry difficult. Their damage is where it needs to be as well as their health. But limit this squads leaping! I don't want to have to get Apothecary JUST to counter Eldars fire prisms and Seer council (Angels of Death is so gud).

FC thunder Hammer is next. This Wargear in cancer when i fight against it. idk what changes are coming but here is my suggestion. Separate the special attack damage in two instances and the damage is also done in two different ways. The weapon still tracks however they receive half the damage they would normally. So pretty much as it is working now but half that damage. The other is like any other special attack. When the animation ends any unit in that area take damage. This would give the enemy a bit of counter play rather than instant retreat, and melee squads who aren't in the area when the special attack starts will now get knocked back if they enter the area when the animation ends. Caz ATM when the animation start you can rush the FC and take no damage until his next special attack. I would request a damage reduction on it special attack but id rather see how this plays out.

I may get a ton of flak for this as well. Now I am a Space Marine Fan Boy (fc specifically) but I think piercing damage should increase a smig vs heavy infantry armor (from 0.67 to 0.69-7). SM, Chaos and GK I understand that they should be hard to kill however those bastards never drop! Put them in cover (Tacs,CSM,SS) and most t1 range armies will struggle to dislodge them. (if they don't nade them of course) And it is a big tiring to see Space Marines and Chaos) all day long.

There is what id like to see changed. I probs forgot something though.

[Nurland]

I would kinda like to see HoD be 10 seconds but with a slightly reduced damage and speed bonus. That would probably make the wargear a lot more desirable since 6 seconds is kinda low duration for that ability. The other option sounds pretty cool as well.

Artificer armor could need some balancing. Bionics is just generally a bit better or at least safer in most situations. It is cheaper, it provides a good hp regen + a reliable and impactful ability that is easier to use than mines. Mines are pretty badass in 1v1 if used well though. But an energy cost reduction to mines or something might be in order.

Can't comment too much on the Ork balance suggestions.

[PhatE]

Waiting to see what's going to be done about Burnas before even considering the Warboss changes. I'm hoping for something in the direction of a build time increase or a cost increase of some description.

As Eldar you just straight up lose your gens to them. You get the shuriken out as fast as possible but you've lost your gens before you can truly defend. It's a pretty crappy matchup to begin with but at least Eldar have some way of preventing them from being totally destroyed, and that's just against the Warboss. The other two heroes, especially the Kommando, can just tie up the shuriken and you're still in a really tight jam. Even doing 3 sluggaz with burnas just isn't fun and the emphasis on economy as each patch has rolled out is becoming ever so prevalent. Games should not be finishing in 5 minutes because 3 burnas raze a gen farm in 7 seconds.

Since more dakka is really just a damage buff I can agree with a reduction to the Waaagh! that you need to use it.

I'd like to see what HoD would perform like if it were self castable and/or worked with providence. That would be my vote as well as increasing it to 8 seconds, 10 seconds as a maximum.

[Sub_Zero]

A great example of this would be the plague sword before it got the long fought over HP buff. This weapon was completely pointless without buying armor to accompany it.

After such a phrase I highly doubt that you provided unbiased ideas. How come the best weapon in terms of damage output in T1 is considered COMPLETELY useless? That health buff wasn't needed. The purpose of the weapon is the scariest counter-initiation damage in T1. You get the armor to complement that. I understand that the adverb "completely" is thrown around like it's nothing but it bears some serious sense and shouldn't be used so trivially.

But actually I liked one your idea, because it supports my opinion that the armor IS overshadowed and not so desirable. I am talking about your idea regarding artificier armor. I would be even more brave and give him +100 courage. Setup teams are usually positioned behind good cover. I don't see him owning setup teams so easily if he has only +50 courage. With +100 courage, that is another story.

[Tex]

A great example of this would be the plague sword before it got the long fought over HP buff. This weapon was completely pointless without buying armor to accompany it.

After such a phrase I highly doubt that you provided unbiased ideas. How come the best weapon in terms of damage output in T1 is considered COMPLETELY useless? That health buff wasn't needed. The purpose of the weapon is the scariest counter-initiation damage in T1. You get the armor to complement that. I understand that the adverb "completely" is thrown around like it's nothing but it bears some serious sense and shouldn't be used so trivially.

But actually I liked one your idea, because it supports my opinion that the armor IS overshadowed and not so desirable. I am talking about your idea regarding artificier armor. I would be even more brave and give him +100 courage. Setup teams are usually positioned behind good cover. I don't see him owning setup teams so easily if he has only +50 courage. With +100 courage, that is another story.

Definitely a value worth tinkering with. I just figured since he is a ranged hero and will be much farther away from a suppression weapon, he will take much less courage damage than an FC or WB.